2012 Aug Plugin Sales Discussion Thread: Volt-2,831;Leaf-685

[RegGuheert]

It looks like the buying public and dealers alike simply don't know enough about batteries to make a qualified judgement.

While that is likely true, I think there is very little risk in a 24-month lease of a 2012 LEAF in the climate we live in here, particularly given the deals these guys got!

 

[surfingslovak]

While that is likely true, I think there is very little risk in a 24-month lease of a 2012 LEAF in the climate we live in here, particularly given the deals these guys got!

Indeed, and even 36 or 39 months could work, depending on climate and range requirements. Not everyone is open to leasing however, although that's clearly the way to go here. Let's hope that these deals speak a clear language and are enticing enough to put prospects on the right track.

 

[TonyWilliams]

now that the batteries are at issue, Nissan will need to offer a solid capacity warranty to overcome the headwind as well.

That is an excellent point. What will Nissan have to do now, warranty wise. I suspect just matching Chevrolet's 80% capacity won't cut it. Who would believe them? There would be wiggle room to revert to business as usual.

I suspect most new buyers won't have a clue.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Different car, different times, different concerns. I understand the leasing hesitation s this is my first, but I buy cars assuming the engine has 200 000 miles to go so penciling out something 12-14 years down the road means purchase is three only option

But that is yesterdays car. Now we look at batteries that might not work 5-6 years down the road in emerging technology so now leasing becomes very attractive

 

[yorkhung]

I'm a little surprised that the Volt is outselling the PiP..

I simply don:t understand why people would buy PiP over Volt. The 10 miles Battery range is pathetic, which means you will pretty much always use gas when driving. On the other hand Volt has 37 miles EV range, so it uses a lot less gas compare to PiP.

Price wise you also need to take account of the $7500 vs $2500 tax. After the credit there is really not much difference for the $30k+ cars

I can:t really understand why people buy PiP. It:s does not really do anything.

 

[TomT]

The only reason I can think of is if someone wants/needs the different form factor of the PIP...

I can't really understand why people buy PiP. It:s does not really do anything.

 

[Rusty]

I can:t really understand why people buy PiP. It:s does not really do anything.

The Prius has a great deal of legitimately earned customer loyalty. The product line has provided the best example of a car optimized for a certain set of priorities, and it has done so for years and years. So I'm not the least bit surprised that a goodly cadre of Prius owners who want the "latest and greatest word" in fuel economy want to buy a PiP. Likewise there may be new buyers in the fuel economy market who say "do I buy a brand new experiment like the Volt, or a tried and true mechanical winner like the Prius?"

Even if the Prius becomes significantly passed by a number of cars in the "best fuel economy" realm there will still be an enthusiastic customer base for it for years and years. But if Toyota continues to sit on their laurels I don't believe they'll be able to maintain that base with the impunity they've come to expect.

 

[evnow]

I expect PIP to take further beating once Energi is released (assuming the trunc doesn't look too bad). 10 miles of EV range is just too less. I'd say, without the HOV lane access in CA, PIP would have had trouble moving many cars beyond hardcore Prius nerds.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i expect the PiP to make some remarkable adjustments within 2 years

 

[dhanson865]

fwiw, my current commute is 16 miles each way with ample chance to regen from highway speeds, to local roads, to a slow stop at each end. I also have EV parking with 110 outlets.

So if I switched from the 2005 Prius to the PiP I'd cut my gas usage by 2/3 or so on that commute. The extra regen on the PiP might actually reduce the gas usage more than just the wall charge alone would imply.

Add to that my grocery shopping is all within a 5 mile radius of home so 99% of my non work driving would be within battery range.

If the batteries get cheaper I'd like to see more range on the next rev of the PiP or even better a choice of battery capacities (PiP vs PiP XL). Offer the current battery capacity and another larger battery with a 50% or 100% increase.

Another consideration is the heater, I'm going to be burning gas in the PiP 4 months a year even if it has a bigger battery so I'm not wanting the battery much larger than the current one. Give me 20 miles battery range and I can do my commute to work on Electricty alone in the spring/summer/fall and on electric+gas in winter.

Give me 30 miles range and I'll be able to make the commute both ways on electric only in spring/fall, use a small amount of gas in the summer, and in the winter I'd plug in at both ends to ofset the lower MPG gas wise and lower battery capacity in the cold.

Make it 40 miles range new and I'll have reserves I won't need unless the PiP battery degrades like the Leaf battery does.

But I wouldn't complain one bit if I had a PiP as is with only 15 miles electric range (my regen options / slow final leg on my trip would allow me to max the range on electric). Combined between commute and errands it'd likely reduce my gas usage by 80% or so on a yearly basis.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

fwiw, my current commute is 16 miles each way...

i only know a handful of people who have similar commuting needs and half of them bike it with driving maybe a few times a month and that is in an area where rain is expected 8-9 months a year.

granted, not for everyone including me. i love my bike and ride all the time but am pretty much a flat ground fair weather rider and generally only bike to work one day a year and do it only for glory and a free t-shirt (although last year it cost like $6...)

 

[dhanson865]

fwiw, my current commute is 16 miles each way...

i only know a handful of people who have similar commuting needs and half of them bike it with driving maybe a few times a month and that is in an area where rain is expected 8-9 months a year.

granted, not for everyone including me. i love my bike and ride all the time but am pretty much a flat ground fair weather rider and generally only bike to work one day a year and do it only for glory and a free t-shirt (although last year it cost like $6...)

It might be different in your world but here it's against the law to get on a interstate or other divided highway with a vehicle that can't do 45 mph (and we have lots of hills so that is implied that you can maintain 45 mph up a steep hill)and with the hills, river cossings, lake crossings there isn't much of a way to avoid ceratain routes around here.

Realistically I'd be taking my life in my hands to get on the "roads" that I travel on a human powered bike, electric assisted bike, or moped.

As to legal definitions for my state:
No person shall operate a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic. '55-8-154(a)

Posted (Minimum) Speed Limit: Based on engineering and traffic investigations, the State Department of Transportation or a local government may establish a minimum speed limit for a highway. '55-8-154(b)

On interstate and four-lane controlled-access highways, it is unlawful for a person to operate a motor vehicle in the left lane at a speed <55 MPH. '55-8-152(d)

all in all I'd say my town isn't very bike or pedestrian friendly when it comes to work commuting, I'm sure there are subdivisions and neighborhoods that are more friendly on their own but getting from one to another is not always doable without hopping in a larger vehicle.

 

[evnow]

If Volt came in a cross-over format (and 5 seater) we would buy it in a hearbeat. Esp. given rediculously subsized leases we are getting now.

PS : One of the big reason for the failure of GM & Chrysler in 2008 were all the highly subsidzed lease they had been offering. Subsidized leases increase current sale at the cost of future profitability.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

oh i am by no means suggesting you bike it. we also deal with a lot of hills. my commute was only 5 miles one way and like i said; i biked it once a year.

also i was unaware that freeway is required for your commute. we have bike trails that parallel I-5 so if there is a freeway going there in Thurston County you can safely bike it...just not on the freeway

around here, i dont feel safe unless i am on a bike trail where motorized vehicles of any kind are prohibited. bike lanes provide me ZERO comfort. i have had a half dozen bike/car collisions. only one that could be construed as slightly serious but only because i always assume the worst when cars are involved.

EVnow; i agree. high on the list of the Volt rejection was no hatchback. after 8+ years of "Priusness" i find it hard to live without it

 

[evnow]

around here, i dont feel safe unless i am on a bike trail where motorized vehicles of any kind are prohibited. bike lanes provide me ZERO comfort. i have had a half dozen bike/car collisions. only one that could be construed as slightly serious but only because i always assume the worst when cars are involved.

Yep - that's the reason I don't bike it. My solution to steep hills was to get some electric assist. But even in bike friendly Sound area we still have a lot of inconsiderate car drivers.

 

[cwerdna]

I simply don:t understand why people would buy PiP over Volt. The 10 miles Battery range is pathetic, which means you will pretty much always use gas when driving. On the other hand Volt has 37 miles EV range, so it uses a lot less gas compare to PiP.

Price wise you also need to take account of the $7500 vs $2500 tax. After the credit there is really not much difference for the $30k+ cars

I can:t really understand why people buy PiP. It:s does not really do anything.

People have different priorities. The PiP is cheaper than the Volt and the Prius has a proven excellent reliability record. Toyota has an overall very good reliability record, GM: all over the map. But, the Volt's done well in CR's reliability survey, so far.

People may not want the Volt's smaller size (compact vs. midsized Prius) and ability to seat only 4 vs 5. The charge-sustain mileage of the Volt is poor vs. that of the Prius and the Volt requires premium.

If the commute goes beyond the Volt's AER range or aren't able to charge much/at all, then it seems the Volt isn't such a great choice. From http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/09/review-2012-toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

Let’s look at these numbers in terms of a commute. I drive 106 miles a day, and my commute involves city, highway and rural mountain roads. Starting with fuel economy without charging: the Volt averaged 33MPG, the Prius averaged 50 and the Prius plug-in averaged 52. (Credit the greater ability to regenerate for the improved figure.) With charging on both ends of my commute, the Volt averaged 40MPG, and the Prius plug-in averaged 72MPG.

Some people are no doubt buying the (eAT-PZEV) Volt or PiP for CA green carpool lane stickers, even if they no means of charging or don't do it regularly.

 

[scottf200]

The charge-sustain mileage of the Volt is poor vs. that of the Prius and the Volt requires premium.

From this post I got over 42 MPG driving 70 MPH. The difference in higher mileage (MPG) cars is a lot less than the difference in lower mileage cars. Consider a 200 miles trip and compare 20 MPG vs 30 MPG cars and then do the same for 40 MPG vs 50 MPG cars.

Why people love to bring up premium is pretty funny. In this leg of my trip the difference it cost me in the price of regular vs premium was the price of the candy I bought when I stopped for gas. Big whoop.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=224537#p224537" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Several gm-volt.com threads about Volt vs Prius and most posters are current or previous prius owners. They all say there is no comparison at all between the cars. Large differences all the prius owners state. Here is one from a few days ago but there have been several in the past as well with the same feeling from the current/past prius owners. http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?16430-Volt-vs-Prius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

The charge-sustain mileage of the Volt is poor vs. that of the Prius and the Volt requires premium.

From this post I got over 42 MPG driving 70 MPH. The difference in higher mileage (MPG) cars is a lot less than the difference in lower mileage cars. Consider a 200 miles trip and compare 20 MPG vs 30 MPG cars and then do the same for 40 MPG vs 50 MPG cars.

Admittedly, I do agree. I've posted about "gallonage" at http://priuschat.com/forums/other-cars/95536-car-driver-mileage-no-its-your-gallonage-really-counts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; before.

However, EPA rating of 37 mpg combined vs. 50 mpg combined is not that tiny. Even people w/2nd gen Priuses (rated at 46 mpg combined) will complain LOUDLY when their mileage falls to ~35-38 mpg as being "poor" when they hit winter, have short drives and live in areas where it's cold (and usually have underinflated non-LRR tires, to boot).

 

[palmermd]

4 pages of responses and none of it about august sales. Have any results been posted?

 

[cwerdna]

Don't know but there are stories like http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/sep/03/us-general-motors-volt-sales/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; saying Volt says had already passed 2500.