Will Nissan Refund the $700 we Wasted on CHAdeMO sockets?

[LALeaf]

I think the UL rating makes it easier to get insurance.
UL rating has little to do with what SAE says to use for the connector.

I think that UL is required by the insurance companies. For those entities selling without UL (Ikea, Wallmart) they might be self insured (they are big enough to be).

 

[walterbays]

I suspect that members of this forum and buyers of LEAFs are more likely to be members of IEEE than members of SAE. And IEEE probably understands better than SAE the importance of time to market, the importance of backward compatibility when a standard arrives late in a market, and the importance of global standards rather than US-only standards. We may have more influence towards sanity in North American L3 standards through IEEE than through SAE. http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/20110504/ieee-and-sae-work-on-ev-grid-standards.htm

 

[DarkStar]

I think the UL rating makes it easier to get insurance.
UL rating has little to do with what SAE says to use for the connector.

I think that UL is required by the insurance companies. For those entities selling without UL (Ikea, Wallmart) they might be self insured (they are big enough to be).

That's a popular rumor, however I've never had homeowners insurance that has required UL listing of anything and have never found any evidence to support that there are insurance companies that require it.

 

[TRONZ]

Is it insurance or liability? Big corporations (PG&E) don't like liability.

 

[ht2]

May be politics.

http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1060451_fast-charging-electric-cars-how-much-is-it-worth

As we discovered last week however, the U.S. auto industry has officially turned down the pre-existing ChAdeMO rapid charge hardware responsible for the Leaf’s 20-minute rapid charge time in favor of a new standard which has yet to even be agreed on.

Given that rapid charging times seem extremely important to potential electric car consumers we have to ask if this decision was a major mistake, since a replacement standard for rapid charging is unlikely to be implemented for several years.

In the meantime, it appears that not only purchase price but also recharge times could hamper mainstream adoption of electric cars by those convinced that they require cars capable of more than 100 miles of range a day, despite evidence to suggest the average electric car trip is only 8.5 miles per journey, and that the average daily commute is less than 32 miles.

 

[Desertstraw]

Does anyone know what kind of quick charger BYD has used for the taxis in China? After one year of successful operation in China, it is almost impossible to believe that quick charging will not be common here soon. I also find it hard to believe that the Ford Focus will not offer quick charging capability. Another question, why can't adapters be designed to go from one type of charger to another?

 

[TEG]

Here is a picture of a BYD QC:
http://energypolicyinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/IMG_0212.jpg
http://energypolicyinfo.com/2010/06/chinas-rapid-progress-on-electrifying-transportation/

Taxi stand:

(I think those ones are parked at the lower speed chargers.)
http://www.theautoindustrieblog.com/2010_12_01_archive.html

...Currently, 40 electric BYD e6 are used as taxis by the Pengcheng Electric Vehicle Taxi Co. Ltd in Shenzhen. China South Grid, the local power utility company operates two charging stations, one of them with 6 quick chargers and the other with 3 standard chargers...

I don't know if BYD uses CHAdeMO. Many of their prototypes had some different types of ports.
http://thesecretsofvancouver.com/wordpress/china-beats-the-big-3/tech-goodies

You can almost make out the chargers here:
http://sufiy.blogspot.com/2010/06/lithium-drive-chinese-taxi-drivers-test.html

And here:
http://blog.privatefleet.com.au/home/buffett-cars/

And here:
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/05/06/report-byd-looking-to-build-200m-vehicle-battery-plant-in-ind/

(doesn't look like J1772 or CHAdeMO):
http://planetark.org/enviro-news/item/58163

http://www.going-electric.org/images/events/evs25/photo-page/BYD-E6-taxi-2-at-EVS25.htm

 

[jwatte]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang)

CHAdeMOE-chan. All she needs is some nekomimi.

 

[hbleaf]

Time to market means nothing if your standard is not open and Chademo is far from open. The release specification is 0.9. If you communicate via CAN with your Chademo connector it clearly returns 1.0 as the standard format. Either someone like Nissan and a few select players have the 1.0 specification or they went off and did their own thing, which seems more likely. Either way Chademo is a big play on a few big players to control this market and this is no way to build a common "plug" standard. If there is anything IEEE and others have learned is that the only standards that survive and thrive are those with truly open data and "plug" and "play" interoperability. Chademo is not moving in that direction but taking the moves that some early ethernet phy vendors tried and failed. Only truly open standard survive no matter what marketing organizations stand behind them. :evil:

 

[PluginRecharge]

I agree with an all-in-one receptacle...both for simplicity to the user and design of the car. The Leaf has a lot of real estate tied up in charging ports...which is kinda cool now from a geek factor, but this will wear off quickly.

From digging around on the Internet, it appears that the J1772 "Hybrid" socket is the lead choice from SAE's perspective.

Checkout these presentations...
New: http://www.ilmua.org/AnnualMeeting/Annual%20Meeting%202011_Bohn.pdf (slide 27)
7 months Old: http://www.sae-na.it/public/allegati_news/RoleintheU.S.RoadmaptoSmartGridInteroperability.pdf

 

[Pipcecil]

I really disagree with a "all-in-one" port system. People are dumb, really dumb. And I can see a problem coming up: Dumb person steps out of car and plugs in public charger. Comes back 30 minutes later and realizes it was only a Level 2 charge not Level 3. Gets pissed off because they cannot get home, sues, writes newspaper, writes local news, etc. No one is going to read any labels if it s a level one or 2, hell they had to REMAKE the diesel gas pumps to be bigger so dumb people would try and stick it into their car and realize it didn't fit and go with the one that fit (yes people are really that dumb).

Have two separate ports really makes the point which is which. EV's are already difficult for most dumb people (i.e. the masses), why make it more difficult with having all charging speeds the same socket type. I see super confusion in the future...big time. It won't be until EVs are common that people will finally figure it out, but with so few, I really think there needs to be two types of chargers for L2 and L3.

As for why the SAE is pushing away from CHAdmEO, a spec already done and being used in the US, versus a mythical one they just decided needed to exist, is a huge political play in my opinion, which really makes me sick. Here is hoping that by the time the SAE comes with an actual mass produced standard that actually could appear on cars and at charging stations, there will be so much CHAdmEO penetration that a switch will be asinine at that point.

 

[IBELEAF]

EV's are already difficult for most dumb people (i.e. the masses), .

:lol: Rough, but I couldn't agree more. Masses are really having difficulties with embracing electrics.

 

[evnow]

I really disagree with a "all-in-one" port system. People are dumb, really dumb.

True. It is just the 5% or so who do all the brainy work in this world. But for them, we would still all be scavenging gatherers in the rift valley.

 

[Herm]

I really disagree with a "all-in-one" port system. People are dumb, really dumb.

Dumb people wont buy BEVs, range anxiety would hit them hard..

 

[jwatte]

Dumb people wont buy BEVs, range anxiety would hit them hard..

Even dumb people probably get the point of a "$2 fill-up" for a car that gets their wife to work and back.
Unless they're dumb enough to work > 40 miles from home ;-)

 

[adric22]

Have two separate ports really makes the point which is which. EV's are already difficult for most dumb people (i.e. the masses), why make it more difficult with having all charging speeds the same socket type. I see super confusion in the future...big time. It won't be until EVs are common that people will finally figure it out, but with so few, I really think there needs to be two types of chargers for L2 and L3.

Funny, I always figured that the reason for trying to make all charging speeds use the 1 socket was for exactly the same reason, people are dumb. I see people who have a chevy volt or other non-chademo-equipped EV driving up to a chademo charging station and trying for 20 minutes to cram the chademo plug into their J1772.

Just to show how dumb people are: The vending machine company that supplies the machines at my work came by recently and removed the dollar-bill receptacle from one of the coke machines for maintenance. The machine would still accept coins in the interim. Where the machine used to take Dollar bills, there was a giant hole about 3" by 3". I watched several people walk over with their Dollar bills and try putting them in that big hole. One of them even dropped it inside, waiting for the machine to register the money, then was mad when it didn't register. I've seen people cram all kinds of computer cables into sockets that "look like they would fit" when in fact they are completely different connectors.

So, although I have nothing against chademo, if we are talking about stupid people, I think they'd be better off with a single plug that would fit any car. Sure, they may not get a quick-charge, but at least the plug would fit. I think maybe they need to educate people better on the whole Level 1,2,3 charging and create some kind of logo for each type and put it above the charging station like they do with "unleaded" or "diesel" at most gas stations.

 

[tps]

create some kind of logo for each type and put it above the charging station like they do with "unleaded" or "diesel" at most gas stations.

Yeah... Everything has to be a picture; people don't want to read.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

I for one know for CERTAIN that if pulling the CHAdeMO standard would have been a known possibility a year ago, that I'd have NEVER ordered it.

Hill, I remember clearly knowing that the L3 standard was still being wrangled at SAE at the time that I ordered the quick charge port. I remember that Nissan was sounding reluctant to allow many orders of the QC port because the L3 standard wasn't set yet. We got all up in arms (as we will do :lol: ) that Nissan shouldn't limit the availability of the QC port. We knew that the standard wasn't set, but we all wanted the ability to do quick charging and we hoped that Nissan could tip the decision in the favor of CHAdeMO by putting a lot of cars on the road with that format.

I certainly hope that the CHAdeMO format wins the fight, of course. But I knew it was a gamble when I ordered it.

I could dredge up some example posts from when this was a hot topic, but I don't really feel like searching this afternoon.

Our Leaf is currently showing delivery to the dealer in "September" (a.k.a "between mid-August and mid-October"). Although I believe the current L1/L2 3.3kW capability will serve 99% of our needs, I have ordered QC to "lean forward" a bit to make the car potentially more useful in the future.

With honest respect for forum member views on the politics of big oil, SAE, IEEE, PG&E, etc., I'd sure welcome some practical, sage advice on whether it would be best to stick with our current order or delete the QC option and then reconsider it for EV #2 when the dust has settled. While I'd like someday to be able to take advantage of a 20-30 minute quick charge, that roll of 700 $1 bills in the glove box -- plus tax -- has a certain appeal, too.

We plan to keep the car well beyond 3 years.

Thanks!

 

[abasile]

With honest respect for forum member views on the politics of big oil, SAE, IEEE, PG&E, etc., I'd sure welcome some practical, sage advice on whether it would be best to stick with our current order or delete the QC option and then reconsider it for EV #2 when the dust has settled. While I'd like someday to be able to take advantage of a 20-30 minute quick charge, that roll of 700 $1 bills in the glove box -- plus tax -- has a certain appeal, too.

I would definitely recommend sticking with the QC option. Multiple dealers in our region, including Fontana Nissan, have indicated they hope or plan to install DC Fast Chargers in the future. (I recently had a conversation with the owner of Fontana Nissan on this topic.) Then you have the planned Ecototality Fast Chargers, potentially more sponsored by Mitsubishi in connection with their upcoming "i" EV, and others installed by private companies. Yes, there is always a chance this will not work out. On the other hand, if it does work out, I don't think you'll want to be without a QC port. It will probably help your LEAF's resale value as well.

We plan to keep the car well beyond 3 years.

That's all the more reason to have the QC port. As more QC stations come online, and your battery pack gradually loses capacity over time, I think it'll prove to be more and more useful.

In full disclosure, I have some level of self interest here. The more EVs that are sold with QC ports, the more incentive there will be for companies to install DC Fast Chargers, some of which I might end up being able to use.

 

[davewill]

...With honest respect for forum member views on the politics of big oil, SAE, IEEE, PG&E, etc., I'd sure welcome some practical, sage advice on whether it would be best to stick with our current order or delete the QC option and then reconsider it for EV #2 when the dust has settled...

For me personally, it's easily worth $700 to NOT knuckle under to Detroit's obstruction on this. Plus, I expect there to be a number of CHAdeMO chargers installed in SoCal, and even if I only use them a handful of times, I will be glad I could drive my LEAF on those longer trips.

BTW, if you fill in your profile with at least your general location, people could give you much better advice on stuff like this.