The unofficial Leaf dropout thread

[DANandNAN]

I wonder if the appraiser even noticed the missing battery bar..

Tony's car didn't have any missing bars.

$23k isn't bad considering that it was a no-hassle trade and that Tony's out-the-door price wasn't much more than that new. Though pro-rating the CA rebate will give decrease the price a bit more...

Looks like Tony scored. He got to drive this LEAF for over a year, and what, 25k (?) miles, for only a few thousand bucks.

I wonder how the next buyer will do, if all they know when they purchase from Carmax, is that it still has all 12 capacity bars.

After they do lose a bar, search the VIN, find Tony's reports of his extreme battery use, and his comments about his LEAFs battery use history and gid reports of capacity loss, we may begin to see news reports of "LEAFs With Failing Batteries" being sold to unwary buyers.

This is what I've been saying since this started, and why Nissan needs to do something for all the Leaf's, not just current owners. This will be the 2nd black eye from them otherwise and all EV's will be painted with a similar brush even though it's undeserved.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Tony would have "saved" on the LEAF if it was replacing a mid mileage vehicle. i saved $1300 in 19,000 miles over a Prius that averaged 50.1 MPG. to be fair, the Prius did drive 700 miles farther.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony would have "saved" on the LEAF if it was replacing a mid mileage vehicle. i saved $1300 in 19,000 miles over a Prius that averaged 50.1 MPG. to be fair, the Prius did drive 700 miles farther.

The 2011 LEAF replaced a 2003 Chrysler minivan that got 16 mpg, had 140,000 miles, and was a maintenance pig. For the 2000 miles that I drive per month, that cost $500 just in gas (2000 / 16 = 125 gallons * $4), plus I was spending big bucks on repairs. Just driving 15 more months with that oil burner would cost $7500 in gas.

My net cost to operate the LEAF over these past 15 months, including tax credits, rebates, all repairs, fuel, depreciation, cost of money, etc, was well below that. There were those range considerations, and occasionally space issues (hey, the van could fit lots of stuff), but I never once wished I had that van back.

I suspect that as the battery tanks in the new black LEAF (and it will; it's just a matter of when and how much) that I'll probably find a way to squirm out of the lease and into a model S.

Folks who get rid of the LEAF, remember to:

LEAF Sale Checklist

1. Erase the Homelink (garage door opener). Just press the first and third button together (with car on) for 20 seconds and then light will blink quickly.

2. Navigation- delete stored routes, address book, bluetooth devices, and set to default.

3. Remove from CarWings

4. Get your money back from any Nissan extended warranty you bought

5. Stop automated lease or car payments

6. California release of liability

7. Remove from insurance

8. Cancell SiriusXM subscription

9. Notify government agencies concerning rebates you may have received

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Tony; give me a Tesla X with a "real" 120 mile range (reputed to be priced in mid $30's) and i am there!! S is still too much money for poor people like me...

the other option and preferred one; give EVs HALF of the support that ICE's receive. i could then EASILY live with my 75 mile LEAF!

 

[IBELEAF]

I was so exhausted cleaning plastidip and removing seat covers that I neglected to erase nav and homelink settings the day before trade. Btw I am never using plasti dip on car paint.

 

[DaveEV]

Tony; give me a Tesla X with a "real" 120 mile range (reputed to be priced in mid $30's) and i am there!! S is still too much money for poor people like me...

Model X due early 2014 is going to cost very similar to Model S with same battery capacity - except that you only get 60 kWh and 85 kWh battery options. Given than the Model X will be less efficient than the S (which is rated at 90 MPGe) due to it's larger size, I'd expect around 150 mile real world range for the 60 kWh Model X which will probably cost around $60k after tax credits. There's no way it's going to cost half that.

The car that will start around $30k is the next generation sedan whose primary competition is rumored to be the BMW 3-series - but that probably won't be available until 2015 at the soonest.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Tony; give me a Tesla X with a "real" 120 mile range (reputed to be priced in mid $30's) and i am there!! S is still too much money for poor people like me...

Model X due early 2014 is going to cost very similar to Model S with same battery capacity - except that you only get 60 kWh and 85 kWh battery options. Given than the Model X will be less efficient than the S (which is rated at 90 MPGe) due to it's larger size, I'd expect around 150 mile real world range for the 60 kWh Model X which will probably cost around $60k after tax credits. There's no way it's going to cost half that.

The car that will start around $30k is the next generation sedan whose primary competition is rumored to be the BMW 3-series - but that probably won't be available until 2015 at the soonest.

ok fine. i am willing to drop the Tesla nameplate

 

[BudRaymond]

If anyone bought a Leaf trying to save money in a long commute, that did not do enough research.

I disagree. Long commutes are fine as long as you can charge at your destination. Even at 110V, charging during an 8 hour work day nearly doubles your effective range.

 

[dandrewk]

This is what I've been saying since this started, and why Nissan needs to do something for all the Leaf's, not just current owners. This will be the 2nd black eye from them otherwise and all EV's will be painted with a similar brush even though it's undeserved.

... and here we are, back at the original argument of this thread.

1. If someone doesn't do due diligence in researching a -new- Leaf, and then are SHOCKED to find out it doesn't have a 100 mile range, they have only themselves to blame.
2. If someone doesn't do due diligence in researching a -used- Leaf, and then are SHOCKED to find out about a tiny percentage of Leafs in hot climates that are experiencing capacity loss, they have only themselves to blame.

Don't expect Nissan, or ANY manufacturer to "do something" about ill-informed buyers.

 

[dhanson865]

Yes, much better to have TWO vehicles. One EV and one ICE. That way you'd have the same problems plus the issue of having the 12v battery on the ICE vehicle run down all the time.

Unless you spend $35 for a battery tender and keep the ICE plugged in when you aren't planning to use it for at least a few weeks. Not really difficult... that is what I do.

Alright, wait a second. You're willing to go under the hood, plug in a battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and then later open the hood, unplug the battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and drive away?

You may be surpised to know that cigarette lighter sockets run from the 12v power in a car. You may also be surprised to know that you can plug a battery charger into the 12v socket under/in the dash in many cars and charge the battery without having the car ignition turned on (or in ready mode for cars that don't use an ignition).

When my 12v battery got weak in the Prius I used a CTEK 56-263 Comfort Connect Cig Socket with the CTEK Multi US 3300 12V Smart Battery Charger. Never had to open the hood or hatch (battery is in the back of the Prius but there are jump connections under the hood in the front with the engine as well).

Some cars don't leave the 12v plug "hot" when the car is off but mine wasn't like that. I don't know if the first owner modified the car or if it came like that from the factory. Either way it's a common enough modification to make the cig lighter port "hot" while car is off.

Now this is in no way support for either side of the discussion you were having. It's just an aside to mention that it is really simple to top off a 12v battery without getting your hands dirty.

 

[grommet]

The car that will start around $30k is the next generation sedan whose primary competition is rumored to be the BMW 3-series - but that probably won't be available until 2015 at the soonest.

And "around $30K" will likely be closer to $40K. (Note that the BMW 3-Series starts at $36K currently.) BMW's own entry into the EV market, the 4-seat BMW i3 "City Car", will likely start well over $40K... and it's still over a year out.

 

[TonyWilliams]

1. If someone doesn't do due diligence in researching a -new- Leaf, and then are SHOCKED to find out it doesn't have a 100 mile range, they have only themselves to blame.
2. If someone doesn't do due diligence in researching a -used- Leaf, and then are SHOCKED to find out about a tiny percentage of Leafs in hot climates that are experiencing capacity loss, they have only themselves to blame.

Don't expect Nissan, or ANY manufacturer to "do something" about ill-informed buyers.

I agree that Nissan isn't going to do much, if anything, besides placebos and platitudes for existing owners. The ill-informed is a bit of a stretch, however.

On April 20, 2010, when many of us reserved the LEAF, Nissan said they went 100 miles.

On Sep 30, 2010, when I ordered my LEAF, it still went 100 miles according to Nissan.

In October, 2010, we were to believe that it would easily go 100 miles with what i predict was a preproduction LEAF at 4.2 volts per cell, instead of 4.1 volts >>>> http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-leaf-116-mile-range.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also in October, 2010, it went "100 miles" at the Nissan drive event that I attended in San Diego. No mention in any of this of 30% degradation in less than a year, or 80% charge long life settings.

So, when I bought my LEAF, I had different expectations than I do now. Perhaps you had a chrystal ball.

The statement to loss in only hot environments is also not right. LEAF's in moderate areas are also experiencing capacity loss. There just aren't with multiple missing capacity bars.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

did Nissan not post their estimated range chart way before the Sept 30, 2010 RAQ date? where they provided the different scenarios and expected range?

 

[grommet]

FYI:

On November 22, 2010, the EPA rated the LEAF with a 73 mile range and a combined city/hwy efficiency of 99 MPGe. This is when reality set in.

But yes, the "results may vary" were documented well before that: http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/14/nissan-pegs-leaf-range-between-47-and-138-miles-individual-resu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

FYI:

On November 22, 2010, the EPA rated the LEAF with a 73 mile range and a combined city/hwy efficiency of 99 MPGe. This is when reality set in.

Nissan released the range chart way before the EPA figures. i am thinking it was around June/July. pretty sure it was after April 20, 2010

 

[grommet]

Yep, was updating my reply as you were posting.

 

[scottf200]

1. If someone doesn't do due diligence in researching a -new- Leaf, and then are SHOCKED to find out it doesn't have a 100 mile range, they have only themselves to blame.
2. If someone doesn't do due diligence in researching a -used- Leaf, and then are SHOCKED to find out about a tiny percentage of Leafs in hot climates that are experiencing capacity loss, they have only themselves to blame.
Don't expect Nissan, or ANY manufacturer to "do something" about ill-informed buyers.

I agree that Nissan isn't going to do much, if anything, besides placebos and platitudes for existing owners. The ill-informed is a bit of a stretch, however.

I think that buyers of a used LEAF will need to get "Nissaan certifications" or something stating the the used range. It is going to vary all over the map. Some used LEAF buyers that end up being highly disappointed will squeakly loudly and that noise in the media would seem like it has the potential to dramatically hurt resale value as other potential LEAF buyers will not buy.

Two bar losers all over map (via Stoaty):

One bar losers all over map (via Stoaty):

 

[DANandNAN]

Alright, wait a second. You're willing to go under the hood, plug in a battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and then later open the hood, unplug the battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and drive away?

You may also be surprised to know that you can plug a battery charger into the 12v socket under/in the dash in many cars and charge the battery without having the car ignition turned on (or in ready mode for cars that don't use an ignition).
-----
Now this is in no way support for either side of the discussion you were having. It's just an aside to mention that it is really simple to top off a 12v battery without getting your hands dirty.

Yup, I'm well aware. My point was that some people, no one in particular, beat the "maintenance drum" when it comes to the Volt, and talk about how "maintenance free" the Leaf is. In reality it's not that simple, because forget they do maintenance just by owning a 2nd vehicle. And there's the fact that Volt owners don't even have to get their hands dirty when it's time to change the Volt's oil (max 2 years recommended).

... and here we are, back at the original argument of this thread.

1. If someone doesn't do due diligence in researching a -new- Leaf, and then are SHOCKED to find out it doesn't have a 100 mile range, they have only themselves to blame.
2. If someone doesn't do due diligence in researching a -used- Leaf, and then are SHOCKED to find out about a tiny percentage of Leafs in hot climates that are experiencing capacity loss, they have only themselves to blame.

Don't expect Nissan, or ANY manufacturer to "do something" about ill-informed buyers.

I'm not talking about the 100 mile range claims. I never mentioned it.

I wouldn't buy a car nowadays without searching out info, but I don't think it's fair to call buyers who didn't read 100+ pages of battery woes on MNL ill-informed. Most folks don't have the time.

Leafs with multiple lost bars are mostly showing up in hot climates, but, as TonyWilliams posted, Leafs are loosing capacity in moderate climates. Who knows (besides Nissan Corp) what's really going on and when/if it's going to level off and stop. You can't be well-informed when you can't find out all the info.

Also, those "ill-informed buyers" are a big part of the mainstream buyers and if they feel lied to because they weren't "smart" enough to own a GID meter or Leafscan, only charge after cooling for several hours, not park in sunlight, not L3 charge to often, and so on then it's a black eye for all of EV. No one but Nissan knows what's going on - we all are ill-informed.

 

[dhanson865]

Two bar losers all over map:

One bar losers all over map:
quote]

interesting images but they don't have all the reported cars from the wiki. Is that due to lack of data on some reports or or the images older?

 

[Stoaty]

Two bar losers all over map:

One bar losers all over map:
quote]

interesting images but they don't have all the reported cars from the wiki. Is that due to lack of data on some reports or or the images older?

The two bar losers graph has all of the reports on the Wiki where both months to loss of bar and miles are known.
The one bar is the same, except that I further restricted it to the owners in Phoenix/Chandler to make sure that the temperature the cars were subjected to were pretty much the same (within limits, can't account for keeping more in the garage, parking in the sun, etc.) See this thread for details:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9548" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;