The unofficial Leaf dropout thread

[Herm]

the Leaf does have a 100 mile range, most people just assume it applies to them with the way they drive.. Why do people assume that?, I think they just heard what they wanted to hear and Mark Perry was vague enough.

 

[surfingslovak]

the Leaf does have a 100 mile range, most people just assume it applies to them with the way they drive.. Why do people assume that?, I think they just heard what they wanted to hear and Mark Perry was vague enough.

I hope that all EVs and PHEVs will be required to advertise their 5-cycle EPA all-electric range, and not something else, just because it fits their marketing purposes. It's been demonstrated that the Leaf is capable of achieving 150 miles on a charge. Unfortunately, there is only one person who can drive that way: LEAFfan. Speaking of dropping out, the limited range and lack of QC infrastructure in California were the top reasons that drove my interest in the Volt and the ActiveE. Based on several conversations, it looks like quite a few Leaf owners might be contemplating an upgrade to Model S.

 

[TonyWilliams]

it looks like quite a few Leaf owners might be contemplating an upgrade to Model S.

+1

 

[kubel]

Based on several conversations, it looks like quite a few Leaf owners might be contemplating an upgrade to Model S.

I'm contemplating an upgrade to second generation Focus electric. Model S is out of my price range. I might be able to afford the Tesla Model T.

 

[IBELEAF]

out of my price range as well, not to mention I don't like the size of it and it would barely fit in my garage. I have a car with 183 inches in length which doesn't leave much room, but Tesla is 196 inches...

 

[grommet]

FYI, in case you haven't viewed the newer LEAF web site... there is a "range" page, and it covers various usage scenarios. http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range?next=ev_micro.section_nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a side note, an associate was able to get 260 miles, with some spirited driving, out of a single charge on his deep pocket early 85 kWh Tesla Model S. That's only 5 miles less than the EPA range rating. (FYI: I like the vehicle, but it definitely needs some polish.)

So far, I've found the EPA EV-only range ratings quite acceptable for both full EV and Plug-In Hybrids. And it's clearly displayed on the mandatory window sticker...

 

[EVDRIVER]

There are also some out there that have gone from Volt to LEAF.

 

[SanDust]

I hope that all EVs and PHEVs will be required to advertise their 5-cycle EPA all-electric range, and not something else, just because it fits their marketing purposes.

They aren't gong to advertise the all electric range on the 5-cycle test because there is no 5-cycle test for an EV. The only test is the adjusted City-Hwy combined test. But this shouldn't be an issue because the combined EPA number should be a very good approximation. For a number of years ICE vehicles could use either the adjusted combined City-Hwy or the 5-Cycle. The issue isn't how accurate the EPA number is, it's fine, it's how Nissan pulled some irrelevant drive cycle out of the dustbin so it could claim the Leaf had a 100 mile range when it clearly didn't.

Very difficult to imagine there will be a mass migration of Leaf owners to the Tesla Model S. At one point there was a poll on this board as to how many people would not have been able to buy the Leaf without the CA rebate. The number who said they could not have purchased was surprisingly high. No way very many Leaf owners are going to pay twice as much for a Model S. There will be a few but that will be the exception to the rule. The Model S is just too pricey for big numbers.

 

[Valdemar]

I refuse to panic until I start seeing sings of accelerated battery degradation on my car, range becomes an issue, or both. I never anticipated I could drive 100 miles in a Leaf but what I can get out of it is sufficient for most of my needs. We are a 2 car family so an ICE is available as a backup, and even with reduced range of the Leaf in the future we should be able to find a workable solution. I initially thought I could save money but with how things are unfolding I'm ok if I can break even after 5-6 years of ownership and a battery replacement is necessary at that time considering ~17,000m/year commute and my previous car's mpg as a cost baseline. I'm very careful with battery, charging to 80% most of the time and using an END timer to reduce the time battery sits in charged state. After almost 11 months of ownership and 15k miles there is no perceived range loss, so I remain to be optimistic.

 

[cwerdna]

I hope that all EVs and PHEVs will be required to advertise their 5-cycle EPA all-electric range, and not something else, just because it fits their marketing purposes.

They aren't gong to advertise the all electric range on the 5-cycle test because there is no 5-cycle test for an EV. The only test is the adjusted City-Hwy combined test. But this shouldn't be an issue because the combined EPA number should be a very good approximation. For a number of years ICE vehicles could use either the adjusted combined City-Hwy or the 5-Cycle. The issue isn't how accurate the EPA number is, it's fine, it's how Nissan pulled some irrelevant drive cycle out of the dustbin so it could claim the Leaf had a 100 mile range when it clearly didn't.

Interesting... I don't want to derail this thread but is there a good article/thread discussing EPA tests on EVs in general? I usually point people to http://priuschat.com/threads/car-and-driver-the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates.67235/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to learn about EPA tests for ICEVs, but that C&D article was written WAY before the Leaf.

The screwier part about the EPA tests for ICEVs is that they don't measure actual fuel consumption, but rather derive it from tailpipe emissions. Kinda impossible to do for an EV when there are no emissions.

 

[hill]

Why not sell it, while you still can? Or are you hoping Nissan would come forward on this?

In my case the loss was few grand between trade and purchase price, but I did save on gas and I used the car for over a year. So the way I see it is that $2-$3k was a rental fee for 16 month.

$2k -$3k depreciation is great, and practically nothing! . . . heck, that's about what we even paid just for tax & license.

.

 

[scottf200]

There are also some out there that have gone from Volt to LEAF.

Did they add the LEAF? I'm sure it could happen that they replaced the Volt with a LEAF but I have never heard of it. Now I could understand if someone replaced the Volt with a Model S in a 2+ car family.

 

[IBELEAF]

There are also some out there that have gone from Volt to LEAF.

I don't see why anyone would replace volt with leaf. Even base model feels fully loaded unlike leaf. The only thing I miss is slightly more space, hence the short lease.

 

[evnow]

The subject of range was well understood to be 100 miles of LA4 cycle, this was know way before the car was on sale

I doubt many people have any idea what the LA4 Cycle is. The whole idea was that the Leaf had a battery pack with a usable 24 kWh. Even after the EPA numbers was released 90% of the posters on this board claimed that the 73 mile range number would understate what you'd get in the real world.

Yesterday I mainly drove on freeways - didn't drive slow (was getting late). Ended up with 5.1 m/kWh (or well over 100 miles). Temperature is the key - I can't get that kind of mileage in winter even if I hypermile.

I do think a lot of people drive aggressively (and high speed) without realizing it. With Leaf there is a penalty to pay for that kind of driving that is obvious - in ICE it is not.

In anycase, if someone bought Leaf thinking they will get 100 miles range under all conditions, they didn't do their homework. I don't feel sorry for them.

 

[edatoakrun]

="IBELEAF"

...I don't see why anyone would replace volt with leaf...

Many Volt driver seem to say they "never" use the ICE.

I don't see why those folks would want to pay the extra $, and suffer the lower efficiency, caused by the ICE, in their next car.

But Volt leases are so cheap, I doubt many volt drivers will trade in, before lease expiration.

I haven't followed Volt prices much.

Can a Volt owner sell his car, with as small a depreciation hit, as a LEAF owner can?

 

[DANandNAN]

I don't know who said they never run the on-board generator, but even on the 100% EV Volts the on-board generator has to run once per month and burn .03 gallons (IIRC) to clean the lines. And, once a year it burns off the fuel in the tank because it's stale.

IMHO, I think most Volt owners realize they have the best of both worlds - for example we're EV 95% of the time and range extender when necessary. Most wouldn't trade their Volt for anything less than a loaded Tesla's range. I think many (us included) would strongly consider a Leaf/FFE, but only if they kept their Volt. EVERYONE (95% anyway) needs to go faster/further than a Leaf/FFE occasionally, if not regularly, and the EV range difference between the Leaf/FFE and the Volt aren't that different so this shouldn't be surprising.

I don't know a lot about used Volt pricing, but the few posts about it seem to indicate it's retaining a lot of value.

 

[WetEV]

IMHO, I think most Volt owners realize they have the best of both worlds - for example we're EV 95% of the time and range extender when necessary.

Short term, yes. A plug in hybrid is a better fit for the economics and technologies right now. Actually, a regular hybrid is probably even better.

Longer term, a plug in hybrid like a Volt is the worst of both worlds. Have all the problems with keeping an gasoline engine healthy, and all of the problems with a battery. Have to tote the mass of a gasoline engine around, even as the gasoline engine gets less and less useful.

 

[adric22]

But Volt leases are so cheap, I doubt many volt drivers will trade in, before lease expiration.

While the volt is very inexpensive to lease, the residual value is much higher than a Leaf. We're planning to refinance purchase our Leaf at the end of the 39 month lease (which is about 2 years from now). Our payment will drop in half at that point. But our Volt.. that is another story. If we refinance and purchase the Volt, our payment will go up significantly. Which means we may return the car and lease another one or something else.

 

[Stoaty]

IMHO, I think most Volt owners realize they have the best of both worlds - for example we're EV 95% of the time and range extender when necessary. Most wouldn't trade their Volt for anything less than a loaded Tesla's range. I think many (us included) would strongly consider a Leaf/FFE, but only if they kept their Volt. EVERYONE (95% anyway) needs to go faster/further than a Leaf/FFE occasionally, if not regularly, and the EV range difference between the Leaf/FFE and the Volt aren't that different so this shouldn't be surprising.

Nothing against the Volt which by all accounts is a very well engineered car, but for many (such as myself) the combination of a Leaf with an ICE vehicle makes more sense, both financially and in terms of EV miles that can be driven. I couldn't get by with only the Volt, because I need a larger car about 5-6 times per year for longer trips (about 500-600 miles each trip) that involve carrying a lot of people/cargo. I already have a 2002 Toyota Camry which works very well for the long trips; it is paid for and beat up enough that I don't have to worry about scratches or vandalism when I leave it at a trailhead for a week. The rest of the time the maximum I need to drive is a 100 mile round trip with ability to charge for about 6 hours at my destination while I hike. I don't need another ICE engine to maintain. I don't need to spend extra to buy that ICE backup. I can drive farther than the Volt on pure electricity. I can seat 5 passengers if I need to do so (not frequent, but have done it). For me, the Volt is overkill in regards to complexity, ICE backup, maintenance expense, and cost, but doesn't provide the functionality I need when I have to burn the dino juice. I imagine that there are many households that have similar needs. [steps down from soapbox]

 

[edatoakrun]

But Volt leases are so cheap, I doubt many volt drivers will trade in, before lease expiration.

While the volt is very inexpensive to lease, the residual value is much higher than a Leaf. We're planning to refinance purchase our Leaf at the end of the 39 month lease (which is about 2 years from now). Our payment will drop in half at that point. But our Volt.. that is another story. If we refinance and purchase the Volt, our payment will go up significantly. Which means we may return the car and lease another one or something else.

IMO, GM set an artificially high residual on the Volt, in order to set up the cheap lease payment.

So most current Volt lessees, will probably be faced with a purchase price higher than market value, on their lease expiration.

I bought my leased LEAF a few months ago, in part because I thought my lease residual would probably be below market price in 2014, so I would be purchasing it then anyway, and would save a bit on the relatively high lease interest rate, by terminating my lease early.