The unofficial Leaf dropout thread

[IBELEAF]

I leased Volt because I know I would not want it after 2 years. I am betting on something better to be available at more acceptable price point with improved features and efficiency. With my Leaf I had a feeling the resale value will not be great in the used market which could probably be the same as Volt lease or perhaps even more.

 

[DANandNAN]

IMHO, I think most Volt owners realize they have the best of both worlds - for example we're EV 95% of the time and range extender when necessary.

Short term, yes. A plug in hybrid is a better fit for the economics and technologies right now. Actually, a regular hybrid is probably even better.

Longer term, a plug in hybrid like a Volt is the worst of both worlds. Have all the problems with keeping an gasoline engine healthy, and all of the problems with a battery. Have to tote the mass of a gasoline engine around, even as the gasoline engine gets less and less useful.

How is a hybrid, that burns gas the second you turn the key, better than a Volt that's burned 9 gallons of gas in over 5,000 miles? That's 150+ gallons and $500 saved. Then there's toxic emissions, soldiers lives, not sending money overseas and the list goes on.

We're not too worried about keeping it healthy. I think the Leaf has to go to the dealer more often than the Volt - recommended oil changes are once every 2 years. No unnecessary dealer profit makers like the Leaf's brake fluid change either.

I would love to not have to tote around the on-board generator for most of my driving and only put it in when I know I'll need it. But, it's a back-up plan that I paid for and is much faster than any other option.

 

[DANandNAN]

IMHO, I think most Volt owners realize they have the best of both worlds - for example we're EV 95% of the time and range extender when necessary. Most wouldn't trade their Volt for anything less than a loaded Tesla's range. I think many (us included) would strongly consider a Leaf/FFE, but only if they kept their Volt. EVERYONE (95% anyway) needs to go faster/further than a Leaf/FFE occasionally, if not regularly, and the EV range difference between the Leaf/FFE and the Volt aren't that different so this shouldn't be surprising.

Nothing against the Volt which by all accounts is a very well engineered car, but for many (such as myself) the combination of a Leaf with an ICE vehicle makes more sense, both financially and in terms of EV miles that can be driven. I couldn't get by with only the Volt, because I need a larger car about 5-6 times per year for longer trips (about 500-600 miles each trip) that involve carrying a lot of people/cargo. I already have a 2002 Toyota Camry which works very well for the long trips; it is paid for and beat up enough that I don't have to worry about scratches or vandalism when I leave it at a trailhead for a week. The rest of the time the maximum I need to drive is a 100 mile round trip with ability to charge for about 6 hours at my destination while I hike. I don't need another ICE engine to maintain. I don't need to spend extra to buy that ICE backup. I can drive farther than the Volt on pure electricity. I can seat 5 passengers if I need to do so (not frequent, but have done it). For me, the Volt is overkill in regards to complexity, ICE backup, maintenance expense, and cost, but doesn't provide the functionality I need when I have to burn the dino juice. I imagine that there are many households that have similar needs. [steps down from soapbox]

So, you're system works because you own an ICE. And, you have an old one that's paid off (I'm hoping) so it only costs you maintenance costs, but your story does show another example that the Leaf/FFE are not capable of being most folks only car(s). Which is my point. The Volt is an EV for 40+ miles with it's backup plan on board. You may be able to force 3 adults to sit in the back of a Leaf, but if they're anything like most adults, they won't be happy. The Leaf actually has less back seat room than the Volt.

Again with the "complexity" and maintenance expense . The Volt has no scheduled/recommended service for most folks for 2 years. But, the Volt doesn't require you to own/lease/borrow a 2nd vehicle - the Leaf does for 95% of people. And, yes, you can drive further than the Volt because your EV range is about 20-25 miles better, but what then? The Volt will keep going at 42MPG.

 

[Valdemar]

The Volt is also not immune from battery degradation, so over time it will burn more and more gas as its EV range goes down effectively becoming a less efficient PIP.

 

[edatoakrun]

="IBELEAF"I leased Volt because I know I would not want it after 2 years. I am betting on something better to be available at more acceptable price point with improved features and efficiency...

Some have made the same decision, though with somewhat different expectations for their own future, as reported below...

...Enter 101-year old Edward Heine and his 85-year old wife Hya, who have just traded in their Jaguar for a 2012 Chevrolet Volt.

According to the Carroll County Times, Edward no longer drives, but purchased the Volt for his wife to drive after she expressed an interest in the plug-in hybrid.

“If you’re going to live, you should be up to date, and try to be technologically intelligent,” said Hya...

Rather than buy the car outright, the couple decided that leasing was the smart choice. “In two years, I’ll trade it in,” said Edward, explaining that the couple believed plug-in technology will have advanced a lot by then.

“I don’t expect to be alive, but my wife will be,” he added...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078021_chevy-volt-buyer-proves-youre-never-too-old-to-buy-an-electric-car" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[SanDust]

Short term, yes. A plug in hybrid is a better fit for the economics and technologies right now. Actually, a regular hybrid is probably even better.

Longer term, a plug in hybrid like a Volt is the worst of both worlds. Have all the problems with keeping an gasoline engine healthy, and all of the problems with a battery. Have to tote the mass of a gasoline engine around, even as the gasoline engine gets less and less useful.

Yes, much better to have TWO vehicles. One EV and one ICE. That way you'd have the same problems plus the issue of having the 12v battery on the ICE vehicle run down all the time. I guess the alternative would be one vehicle with a huge battery pack. Of course it wouldn't have the same utility and you'd be lugging around more extra weight than you would with an engine.

No idea why you'd think a parallel hybrid is better than a serial hybrid. Doesn't seem like much of a contest. What would you prefer? 175 MPG or 35-50 MPG.

 

[LEAFfan]

There are also some out there that have gone from Volt to LEAF.

I don't see why anyone would replace volt with leaf.

Maybe they just got tired of paying for gasoline and giving the money to foreign countries. Or maybe they bought/leased a PV system and decided to stop polluting our precious Earth. I'm sure they have other reasons to go from a Volt to a LEAF.

 

[DANandNAN]

The Volt is also not immune from battery degradation, so over time it will burn more and more gas as its EV range goes down effectively becoming a less efficient PIP.

Do you have a source? GM's continued testing shows the battery exceeding expectations thanks to it's TMS. Everything degrades, no doubt about it, but there's also a hypothesis that GM will recalibrate the Volt's so the "unused" 6kw can be used if there was degradation.

 

[Stoaty]

Yes, much better to have TWO vehicles. One EV and one ICE. That way you'd have the same problems plus the issue of having the 12v battery on the ICE vehicle run down all the time.

Unless you spend $35 for a battery tender and keep the ICE plugged in when you aren't planning to use it for at least a few weeks. Not really difficult... that is what I do.

 

[DANandNAN]

Sandust,
Exactly.

There are also some out there that have gone from Volt to LEAF.

I don't see why anyone would replace volt with leaf.

I'm sure they have other reasons to go from a Volt to a LEAF.

I don't doubt that someone switched from a Volt to a Leaf, but sources would be helpful to prove that it's occurred.

 

[WetEV]

IMHO, I think most Volt owners realize they have the best of both worlds - for example we're EV 95% of the time and range extender when necessary.

Short term, yes. A plug in hybrid is a better fit for the economics and technologies right now. Actually, a regular hybrid is probably even better.

Longer term, a plug in hybrid like a Volt is the worst of both worlds. Have all the problems with keeping an gasoline engine healthy, and all of the problems with a battery. Have to tote the mass of a gasoline engine around, even as the gasoline engine gets less and less useful.

How is a hybrid, that burns gas the second you turn the key, better than a Volt that's burned 9 gallons of gas in over 5,000 miles? That's 150+ gallons and $500 saved.

Let us do the numbers.

In round terms, a PHEV like a Volt costs about $20,000 more than a ICE, a Leaf type BEV about $15,000 more and a hybrid about $2000 more. A Model S type BEV with 300 mile range about $50,000 more. I'm ignoring tax rebates and such right now.

The ICE will get 30 mpg, the hybrid 50mpg, the PHEV will get 100 mpg electric/40 mpg gasoline and does 98% of driving on electric, the LtBEV will get about 100 mpg electric (but need a ICE car 10% of the time) and the MStBEV will get 100 mpg electric and never need an ICE.

With me so far? Agree with these estimates? If not, we can redo this with some different numbers.

Let's do this in the Northwet (no typo, it is cool (68 predicted high temperature) and misty today), and assume that 100% of electric power is non-fossil, ie hydro/wind/solar/nuclear, and we get it all at public free charge stations. Assume 12,000 miles a year, 10 year life. Assume $3.50 gasoline.

So what is the maximum use of $100,000?
Change 50 new ICE into new hybrid cars and save 50cars*10 years*(400 - 240) = 197,600 gallons of gasoline or 3,952,000 lbs of CO2 or $691,600?
Change 5 new ICE into new PHEV cars and save 5*10*(400*.98) = 19,600 gallons of gasoline or 392,000 lbs of CO2 or $68,600?
Change 6.67 new ICE into new LtBEV and save 6.67*10*(400*.90) = 24,010 gallons of gasoline or 480,200 lbs of CO2 or $84,035?
Change 2 new ICE into new MStBEV and save 2*10*400 = 8,000 gallons of gasoline or 160,000 lbs of CO2 or $28,000?

The Leaf is more of a cultural change than is a PHEV, so I can see how it is not for everyone, and the Leaf may require either ownership of a second car (which is not fully accounted for above) or occasional rental of a car (rental cost not accounted for above). Second car can be very cheap in a two car household. As you can see, the Leaf and the Volt are more similar than different in gasoline savings. Both are rather less in total savings than is the hybrid, and both rather more than the Model S type. (I should add the iMiev into the above)

Of course, people don't follow the economics too closely, or there wouldn't be many plain ICE cars sold.

Economics isn't everything, as the gasoline cost doesn't include the cost of the side effects of burning gasoline, such as air pollution, climate change, foreign wars, etc. Or on the positive side, the fact that electrics are just plain fun to drive isn't included as well. Or the tax breaks.

This isn't static, as the cost of batteries is dropping and the cost of gasoline is (long term) rising. The more hybrid or PHEV and BEVs produced, the faster the price of batteries will fall.

Long term, a PHEV will cost more than a large battery BEV, and with higher fuel costs, more maintainance costs, would appeal to only a tiny fraction of people.

 

[DANandNAN]

Yes, much better to have TWO vehicles. One EV and one ICE. That way you'd have the same problems plus the issue of having the 12v battery on the ICE vehicle run down all the time.

Unless you spend $35 for a battery tender and keep the ICE plugged in when you aren't planning to use it for at least a few weeks. Not really difficult... that is what I do.

Alright, wait a second. You're willing to go under the hood, plug in a battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and then later open the hood, unplug the battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and drive away? And, you're willing to drive your Leaf to the dealer to have them inspect it and attempt to charge for what seems to be completely unnecessary (except to pad the dealers pocket) yearly brake fluid change while eating a doughnut. Yet, a trip to the dealer in the Volt, sitting in a waiting room for an hour watching TV and eating doughnuts while someone else changes your oil once every 2 years or so is too complex?

:roll:

 

[Valdemar]

The Volt is also not immune from battery degradation, so over time it will burn more and more gas as its EV range goes down effectively becoming a less efficient PIP.

Do you have a source? GM's continued testing shows the battery exceeding expectations thanks to it's TMS. Everything degrades, no doubt about it, but there's also a hypothesis that GM will recalibrate the Volt's so the "unused" 6kw can be used if there was degradation.

No source, just because "everything degrades", i wasn't aware about the unused 6kwh, that definitely helps to offset the capacity lost. What I'd like to find is how Volt's or FFE TMS system operates, if this uses simple heat exchange with ambient air then I don't think it will be much of help when it is 120F outside, so overall it may be just marginally better than Leaf's air cooling setup in extreme climates.

 

[DANandNAN]

.

Good grief, I don't need you to run numbers. Especially since I disagree with you on the cost comparison and have no need to justify my purchase.

 

[DANandNAN]

What I'd like to find is how Volt's or FFE TMS system operates, if this uses simple heat exchange with ambient air then I don't think it will be much of help when it is 120F outside, so overall it may be just marginally better than Leaf's air cooling setup in extreme climates.

Nope, GM, Ford, Tesla and even the el-cheapo Mitsubishi went all in and they all should be MUCH, MUCH better than the Leaf's system - BTW, the Leaf isn't air cooled, there's no fan or anything, whatever air happens to pass over the case is all the Leaf gets. The TMS the other manufacturers use is fluid cooled by running through the AC, which then is used to cool the pack. It's a great system.

 

[Stoaty]

Alright, wait a second. You're willing to go under the hood, plug in a battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and then later open the hood, unplug the battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and drive away?

Yes, because I only have to do this 5-6 times a year at the most. I don't bother when the ICE is only going to sit for a few weeks until the next long trip, only when it is going to sit for a month or more. I don't touch anything but the battery cable cover, so don't need to wash my hands.

And, you're willing to drive your Leaf to the dealer to have them inspect it and attempt to charge for what seems to be completely unnecessary (except to pad the dealers pocket) yearly brake fluid change while eating a doughnut.

That is unnecessary, and is only for schedule 1. For schedule 2 (which I am following) it is every 2 years.

Yet, a trip to the dealer in the Volt, sitting in a waiting room for an hour watching TV and eating doughnuts while someone else changes your oil once every 2 years or so is too complex?

As you know, I have documented my reasons in detail in a post earlier in this thread. Your Volt evangelism is getting a bit tiring. Trying to make it out to depend on one dealer visit for scheduled maintenance is a straw man argument. Not biting.

 

[WetEV]

Alright, wait a second. You're willing to go under the hood, plug in a battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and then later open the hood, unplug the battery tender, close the hood, wash your hands and drive away?

No, plug in for battery tender is on the bumper. Why mess with the hood and all that?

:?

 

[grommet]

The Mitsubishi is "air cooled"... similar to Honda's Fit EV. Sorry, no liquid.

 

[LEAFfan]

And, you're willing to drive your Leaf to the dealer to have them inspect it and attempt to charge for what seems to be completely unnecessary (except to pad the dealers pocket) yearly brake fluid change while eating a doughnut.

First of all, brake fluid may need to be changed after only two years, not one. You're looking at SCH 1. I'm doing SCH 2. A simple DMM can tell you if it needs changing. Secondly, who says you have to go to the dealer for a fluid change? If it needs it after two years, I'm going to an 'automotive tech school' to have it done and the labor is only $5. I've saved thousands by using their services with my old ICE cars and the students get to learn from it. :mrgreen:

 

[Stoaty]

So, you're system works because you own an ICE. And, you have an old one that's paid off (I'm hoping) so it only costs you maintenance costs, but your story does show another example that the Leaf/FFE are not capable of being most folks only car(s).

Yes, but MY point was that the Volt is not capable of being my only car. You are trying to force everyone into the mold for your needs; I am pointing out that different people have different needs, and many of them will dovetail nicely with the Leaf.

Again with the "complexity" and maintenance expense . The Volt has no scheduled/recommended service for most folks for 2 years.

I am not talking about scheduled maintenance, I am talking about the fact that there in a gasoline engine which has many parts that can potentially break or malfunction over time.

PS Back on the ignore list.