Sold our 2020 LEAF SV.

[kitra]

We leased a 2020 Leaf SV 40kwh in August of 2020. Got the car for $159 a month with no other fees. The Dealer had 111 Leafs on their lot and Nissan was desperate to move them. Gas was cheap under Trump. A month after we got our Leaf, they had a deal for $99 a month. Anyway, I put in an L2 16 amp charger at home. The charger was perfect as it would add 10% capacity per hour. We used LeafSpy to monitor the battery statistics. At the end of our 2-year lease, the battery had degraded 7%. We quick charged 17 times over the 2 years. We never went over 80% quick charging but found very high battery temperatures when doing so. Charging at home was 80 - 90%. We purchased the Leaf in August 2022. We put the car on CL and CarGurus with no set price. It was black exterior and I always garaged the car. Ceramic coated the paint. The car literally looked like a mirror. Not one scratch or rock chip. A local Mercedes Dealer wanted the car - badly. We sold it for $29,500. They put the car on their showroom floor. They sold it for $34,000! Gas was expensive and Leaf's were sold out or had up to $15K markups.

Nissan really blew it on their Leafs. Not liquid cooling the batteries was why we sold it. Also, it was very expensive to insure. Our Insurance Agent said that over 85% of the time, an EV is totaled when in an accident so the premiums are high. Also, when we had our 2013 Leaf, all charging in the Portland, Oregon area was free and few using the chargers. When we got the 2020 Leaf, Chargers were almost always busy, out of service, or had fees up to $.55 a kilowatt. We were stranded several times due to broken Chargers on our routes, even though the Application showed Chargers were available. Drove to the Beach one morning, 87 miles, and used Heater, drove with the traffic, and had 22% battery when we got there. All the Chargers were down! Nearest Charger was 20 miles away. Drove to that Charger at Walmart and they were down for service. Stranded. We hated waiting for the Car to charge. We are busy and time wasted hurt.

The ONLY way we will ever try another EV would be if the range is 600+ freeway miles and would charge quickly. Then the EV could replace an ICE vehicle. Our ICE vehicle will go 600 miles on a tank. We think the reason many are are not willing to drive an EV is the car is not a replacement for an ICE vehicle so it becomes an expensive second town car. My neighbor has a Tesla and he told me his insurance is over $5000 a year. He also is disappointed in his Tesla. Wind noise, road noise, rattles, eats tires, and very expensive Tesla charging. PGE just increased the power rates by 18%. They plan another increase mid-2024. They want People to go all electric yet penalize them for doing so. We have a Central Heat Pump I installed but kept our 93% efficient Gas Furnace as an air handler. Our electric bill for 12/2023 was over $300 and temperatures were mild and that bill is before the 18% increase coming 1/2024. So we switched back to FAG. Maybe they are trying to discourage EV buyers with expensive power?

The Leaf's are solid, well built cars except for the battery management which is none.

 

[cornbinder89]

The stories I hear from disappointed owners are those that are trying to use EV's in a way they are not the best for. Yes, too many are pushing them for every use, when in reality they don't fit that well for that service.
It cost me less than 1/2 for my use over running a 30 MPG gas car, to run back and forth to town, 98% of our trips.
I went in with my eyes wide open, and have been very happy. I still have gasoline power vehicle for the very few long trips we take.
With today's batteries, long distance travel is not the best with an electric. If you load up the chassie with heavy batteries to get enough range, it becomes a diminishing return, harder to cool and longer times to fast charge. For what we have now, I would say 250-350 mile range is the goldylocks point.
So far I only charge at home so around $0.20/Kwh. An electric is ideal for my type of service where it returns home with range to spare and can be charged while in the garage.
There will always be those that will take them on long trips, brag about how far they got, and the "fun" of searching for working charging stations. Those that want the convenience of gasoline on a long trip will always be disappointed.

 

[pmbdk]

The stories I hear from disappointed owners are those that are trying to use EV's in a way they are not the best for. Yes, too many are pushing them for every use, when in reality they don't fit that well for that service.

True...

I you live in a warmer climate or need long, daily rides, don't buy the Leaf.

The main problem I see with the Leaf is actually that Nissan does not inform people what the lack of active thermal management means.

Chademo charging - or rather the lack of CSS charging - is obviously an issue in itself. But maybe they should just had left quick charging out entirely; then people would not have used the car for what is was never intended to be used.

Adding cooling to a battery is not just adding a fan to the battery pack or putting some cooling liquid through it. It requires quite a bit of engineering, mass, auxilliary mechanics/electronics and all of this just adds to the cost.

For me I would prefer to have low cost and know that I should not run my batteries hot. But then again I live in cold Denmark and commutes 8 km twice per week... ;-)

 

[SageBrush]

If you load up the chassie with heavy batteries to get enough range, it becomes a diminishing return, harder to cool and longer times to fast charge

About the same time to charge [to the same SoC}, but you put more energy into the battery. It goes by C-rate
The end result is that EVs with bigger batteries will be better long trip cars

I forgot to charge my Tesla yesterday and did not feel like going up the hill back home with less that 10% SoC so I stopped at a Supercharger for a couple of minutes and charged up to 40%. 205 kW peak, ~ 180 kW average. Arithmetic says 8 minutes.

 

[marshallinwash]

The Leaf is a commuter car. When you try to use it for more then that, you are setting yourself up for disappointment and frustration.

As you found out the biggest issue with electric cars today is the sad condition of the charging stations. This is compounded by the brain dead decision to use ChadeMo by Nissan.

I calculated my electrical energy cost to be $0.125 kWh which includes all the taxes and fees. The public Flo L2 chargers cost $0.21 kWh around here.

Insurance costs are an issue when insuring an EV, and you are correct in that they are often totaled. However, ICE owners are getting hit too, due the cost to replace and number of EVs on the road. I would urge folks to go over their liability coverage as some of these EVs cost over a hundred grand. I think it makes sense to buy the cheapest EV, like a used Leaf or Bolt, and self insure for collision if you have the means to do so. Hopefully things will get better if and when they come out with solid state batteries.

As far as Teslas, folks tend to overlook the issues due to how much fun they are to drive and their charging network just works.

 

[cornbinder89]

The end result is that EVs with bigger batteries will be better long trip cars

I think the small, good but cheap end of the market is going fast and may already be gone. That market is going to be hybrid, like the Prius and other small one.
Just as a big BMW or Mercedes make great road cars, they aren't affordable for most.
I have a Saab turbo for long trips.

 

[kitra]

cornbinder89, I totally agree and guess what? I drive a 2002 SAAB 9-5 Arc as our errand runner and for moderate trips. 180K miles on it. I love my SAAB and hope to drive it another few years. Mine has the Vauxhall 3.0 liter V6 which has been a marvelous engine. Timing belt kits need to be replaced on schedule since it's an interference engine. I'm good at doing the work myself. Not too difficult.

I don't know if anyone's heard about NIO? They are a China EV manufacturer that makes luxury appointed vehicles. They seem to be the first ones to use a solid-stated electrolyte battery in production vehicles, battery by WeLion. Tests are showing a 600 mile range and amazingly fast charging times. If this bleeds over to other manufacturers, this could be a game changer. 600 mile range would be great and could replace the ICE vehicles. I bought NIO stock a couple of years ago and haven't done well, a loser for me. But I think it will recover, fingers crossed.

 

[cornbinder89]

Mine is 18 years older than yours. 5 spd stick.
If I could sell something to raise the cash, I'd throw a 40 Kwh pac in my 2015 SL. That would cover 99.9% of the trips, and the Saab could cover the longer ones.
Having said that, it does what I bought it for, right now. I just want to expand to what it could do.

 

[SJEVer]

The stories I hear from disappointed owners are those that are trying to use EV's in a way they are not the best for. Yes, too many are pushing them for every use, when in reality they don't fit that well for that service.
It cost me less than 1/2 for my use over running a 30 MPG gas car, to run back and forth to town, 98% of our trips.
I went in with my eyes wide open, and have been very happy. I still have gasoline power vehicle for the very few long trips we take.
With today's batteries, long distance travel is not the best with an electric. If you load up the chassie with heavy batteries to get enough range, it becomes a diminishing return, harder to cool and longer times to fast charge. For what we have now, I would say 250-350 mile range is the goldylocks point.
So far I only charge at home so around $0.20/Kwh. An electric is ideal for my type of service where it returns home with range to spare and can be charged while in the garage.
There will always be those that will take them on long trips, brag about how far they got, and the "fun" of searching for working charging stations. Those that want the convenience of gasoline on a long trip will always be disappointed.

I totally agree. We use our Leaf for all local driving. We have ventured round trips that were outside its range, eg where we had one stop with a well-researched, functioning quick charger to give us 20 minutes of charge so we could make it home, or visiting a friend at whose home we could plug in overnight with our portable level EVSE which works on either 120 or 240. At home we plug into a dryer outlet that was installed in our garage when the house was built. I love home charging & no oil changes, and have been pleasantly surprised as the number and size of things I can transport in it with the fold down rear seats.
We have a smallish (by today’s standards) roof solar array, installed 10 years ago as a power pre-purchase at $0.09/KWh. It only gives us 5-6 KWh on a good winter solstice day, but up to 35 KWh at summer solstice. PGE’s overnight rate is now $0.27/KWh. We just got a Powerwall both as blackout backup and so we can load-shift and avoid the summer evening peak rates of $0.58 (and rising). We enjoy our heat-pump mini split AC during the increasingly-frequent heat wave evenings and nights without paying the premium 4-9 pm rates.
We have our 2012 Sienna for trips up and down the western states, with a full size bed in the back that is our motel room.
So that’s long-winded yes, a Leaf can fit well in a certain use slot, and is very economical to operate as part of a mixed electric/solar/gas home. It is not a replacement for your only car for all uses.

 

[Juicebox]

The LEAF has a place in the EV market.
Too bad Nissan is giving up on the car.
As a new car, I think it is expensive. As a used car with the now available 4k tax credit, it has merit.
I bought a CPO 2021 SL Plus a few months ago. After the credit, I paid 20k for the car.
That is attractive. Mainly bought the car for addition battery backup for our home.
Added bonus is a vehicle to drive for local use.

 

[kitra]

We were driving our SAAB yesterday in Beaverton Oregon and coming towards us was a flatbed Tow Truck. Since I was driving, I couldn't get my phone out, unlocked, and able to take a picture in time. The Car on the Tow Truck looked to be a totally burned out KIA EV6. Man, I hope the occupants got out OK. Everyone's fear to have their EV catch on fire.

 

[SueC56]

I don't don't feel that way at all about EV fires.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithium-ion-battery-fires

 

[marshallinwash]

We were driving our SAAB yesterday in Beaverton Oregon and coming towards us was a flatbed Tow Truck. Since I was driving, I couldn't get my phone out, unlocked, and able to take a picture in time. The Car on the Tow Truck looked to be a totally burned out KIA EV6. Man, I hope the occupants got out OK. Everyone's fear to have their EV catch on fire.

I hope they are safe too.

However ICE vehicles can trap you in a deadly fire too, like the one this month in Oklahoma.

If you are worried about battery fires, then get an EV with a lithium, iron, phosphate battery.

 

[dsevier]

I totally agree. We use our Leaf for all local driving. We have ventured round trips that were outside its range, eg where we had one stop with a well-researched, functioning quick charger to give us 20 minutes of charge so we could make it home, or visiting a friend at whose home we could plug in overnight with our portable level EVSE which works on either 120 or 240. At home we plug into a dryer outlet that was installed in our garage when the house was built. I love home charging & no oil changes, and have been pleasantly surprised as the number and size of things I can transport in it with the fold down rear seats.
We have a smallish (by today’s standards) roof solar array, installed 10 years ago as a power pre-purchase at $0.09/KWh. It only gives us 5-6 KWh on a good winter solstice day, but up to 35 KWh at summer solstice. PGE’s overnight rate is now $0.27/KWh. We just got a Powerwall both as blackout backup and so we can load-shift and avoid the summer evening peak rates of $0.58 (and rising). We enjoy our heat-pump mini split AC during the increasingly-frequent heat wave evenings and nights without paying the premium 4-9 pm rates.
We have our 2012 Sienna for trips up and down the western states, with a full size bed in the back that is our motel room.
So that’s long-winded yes, a Leaf can fit well in a certain use slot, and is very economical to operate as part of a mixed electric/solar/gas home. It is not a replacement for your only car for all uses.

Given that our Leaf is a 2014, we cannot aspire to even midrange trips. So we resort to our Honda CR-V for midrange trips and the few 1000+ mile trips that we don't use our Class B camper van on. We might drive 50 miles a day once a month but most days are 15 miles or less. Some are 0. It was this use model that gave us confidence the 2014 would work for us and it has more than met our expectations.

 

[kitra]

I think a LEAF Plus would work for 90% of our town driving but even the last LEAF's still don't have battery temperature management and still have the Chademo. The Bolt would also work but they seem so small and still use the LG Chem Battery packs. LG Chem also supplies the Mach E Battery pack. We've noticed maybe 1 Ariya Nissan here in the Portland area on the road. Went online and there are many for sale across the Country with most of them having 3000 miles of less. Maybe buyers don't like them. We never looked at them due to their ugly looks and price.

 

[Dooglas]

I think a LEAF Plus would work for 90% of our town driving but even the last LEAF's still don't have battery temperature management and still have the Chademo. The Bolt would also work but they seem so small and still use the LG Chem Battery packs. LG Chem also supplies the Mach E Battery pack. We've noticed maybe 1 Ariya Nissan here in the Portland area on the road. Went online and there are many for sale across the Country with most of them having 3000 miles of less. Maybe buyers don't like them. We never looked at them due to their ugly looks and price.

I'm with you, the Ariya and most other SUV EVs are overpriced and overweight. My SL plus is a better EV IMO - especially as a low mileage used vehicle.

 

[Dooglas]

I don't don't feel that way at all about EV fires.

I agree. EV fires are rare and something I don't worry about. I have never seen a documented example of a spontaneous fire involving the traction battery in a LEAF. Statistics suggest you should worry more about your cellphone catching fire.

 

[marshallinwash]

I think a LEAF Plus would work for 90% of our town driving but even the last LEAF's still don't have battery temperature management and still have the Chademo. The Bolt would also work but they seem so small and still use the LG Chem Battery packs. LG Chem also supplies the Mach E Battery pack. We've noticed maybe 1 Ariya Nissan here in the Portland area on the road. Went online and there are many for sale across the Country with most of them having 3000 miles of less. Maybe buyers don't like them. We never looked at them due to their ugly looks and price.

It looks like the Ariya has an inverter problem. There is a recall on the issue.

• NHTSA #23V-657
• Recall #R23C6 ARIYA INVERTER NTB23-074
• Status: Remedy Available

 

[kitra]

IF I could turn back the clock, I would have leased the LEAF SV Plus. The 40kWh Leaf we leased was I think $159 and no other fees for 2 years. 8/2020, no one wanted an EV. The Plus was only $189 a month and I wish I'd done that. Even with some battery degradation, it likely would have still done the majority of our travels. The Beach we like is 88 miles away. My Brother lives 108 miles away. It could have worked out. Out here, used Leaf's are pretty expensive. The cheapest on I saw was a 2020 SV Plus for $15,944 at a local Dealer but it has 58K miles. I bet with that kind of mileage, there was lots of quick charges. LeafSpy would tell the story. I'll keep driving my 2002 SAAB in the meantime.

 

[dhyatt]

We leased a 2020 Leaf SV 40kwh in August of 2020. Got the car for $159 a month with no other fees. The Dealer had 111 Leafs on their lot and Nissan was desperate to move them. Gas was cheap under Trump. A month after we got our Leaf, they had a deal for $99 a month. Anyway, I put in an L2 16 amp charger at home. The charger was perfect as it would add 10% capacity per hour. We used LeafSpy to monitor the battery statistics. At the end of our 2-year lease, the battery had degraded 7%. We quick charged 17 times over the 2 years. We never went over 80% quick charging but found very high battery temperatures when doing so. Charging at home was 80 - 90%. We purchased the Leaf in August 2022. We put the car on CL and CarGurus with no set price. It was black exterior and I always garaged the car. Ceramic coated the paint. The car literally looked like a mirror. Not one scratch or rock chip. A local Mercedes Dealer wanted the car - badly. We sold it for $29,500. They put the car on their showroom floor. They sold it for $34,000! Gas was expensive and Leaf's were sold out or had up to $15K markups.

Nissan really blew it on their Leafs. Not liquid cooling the batteries was why we sold it. Also, it was very expensive to insure. Our Insurance Agent said that over 85% of the time, an EV is totaled when in an accident so the premiums are high. Also, when we had our 2013 Leaf, all charging in the Portland, Oregon area was free and few using the chargers. When we got the 2020 Leaf, Chargers were almost always busy, out of service, or had fees up to $.55 a kilowatt. We were stranded several times due to broken Chargers on our routes, even though the Application showed Chargers were available. Drove to the Beach one morning, 87 miles, and used Heater, drove with the traffic, and had 22% battery when we got there. All the Chargers were down! Nearest Charger was 20 miles away. Drove to that Charger at Walmart and they were down for service. Stranded. We hated waiting for the Car to charge. We are busy and time wasted hurt.

The ONLY way we will ever try another EV would be if the range is 600+ freeway miles and would charge quickly. Then the EV could replace an ICE vehicle. Our ICE vehicle will go 600 miles on a tank. We think the reason many are are not willing to drive an EV is the car is not a replacement for an ICE vehicle so it becomes an expensive second town car. My neighbor has a Tesla and he told me his insurance is over $5000 a year. He also is disappointed in his Tesla. Wind noise, road noise, rattles, eats tires, and very expensive Tesla charging. PGE just increased the power rates by 18%. They plan another increase mid-2024. They want People to go all electric yet penalize them for doing so. We have a Central Heat Pump I installed but kept our 93% efficient Gas Furnace as an air handler. Our electric bill for 12/2023 was over $300 and temperatures were mild and that bill is before the 18% increase coming 1/2024. So we switched back to FAG. Maybe they are trying to discourage EV buyers with expensive power?

The Leaf's are solid, well built cars except for the battery management which is none.

My mistake was not leasing my 2015... I was looking at a BMW and the total cost of ownership is $10k cheaper for the BMW after all is said and done. And I would not have had the severe range and climate control restrictions. Almost all chargers in my area charge $ 34 cents a minute for 3.3kw. My home charger does 80% charge in 2 hours, trickle for 1 hour to full. Costs $20 a month to charge twice a day on my 6.6kw charger. If I had got the BMW ICE car (internal combustion) It would be worth 20k, my leaf is worth $2.5k