Poll : $100 a month replacement offer

[Stoaty]

Perhaps at this point its wishful thinking but we'll see when the time comes -- we live in a moderate not hot climate and at almost two years, no battery degradation and have close to only 18K miles so have quite a ways to go before we should have to start thinking about it ...

As has been stated many times before, you do have battery degradation, you just haven't lost a capacity bar yet (first capacity bar represents a 15% loss). Estimated loss of capacity per the Battery Aging Model (link in my signature) is 11-12%.

 

[klapauzius]

Perhaps at this point its wishful thinking but we'll see when the time comes -- we live in a moderate not hot climate and at almost two years, no battery degradation and have close to only 18K miles so have quite a ways to go before we should have to start thinking about it ...

As has been stated many times before, you do have battery degradation, you just haven't lost a capacity bar yet (first capacity bar represents a 15% loss). Estimated loss of capacity per the Battery Aging Model (link in my signature) is 11-12%.

Yes, I can confirm that. Even though our battery is holding up nicely in the mild PNW climate, we have nevertheless lost ~ 10% capacity over 3 years and now in the colder season it starts to show. We have to charge to 100% to do a 50 mile freeway roundtrip at temps below 40 F with some modest heater use, where we regularly end up coming home with 0 bars left. Another 10% and these commutes will not be possible without picking up some charge in between.
Assuming it will take longer to drop from 90% to 80%, Nissan has still ~ 3 years to come up with a 2011 compatible replacement battery with a price tag.

 

[thankyouOB]

price tag?
you mean you dont like the SYB?

 

[klapauzius]

price tag?
you mean you dont like the SYB?

Yes. I thought it was a bad idea the moment it was made public.
When the time comes (in a year or two) to replace my aging remaining ICE car, I am planning to get another EV and it will not be a Nissan. That decision is mostly influenced by this battery-replacement debacle. Likewise I do not recommend the Leaf to friends or interested strangers anymore (as I have done in the past).

Not sure if this is a typical reaction to the SYB program, but I am still scratching my head, how smart people could come up with this, especially after raising expectations for the "end of spring battery price".

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Perhaps at this point its wishful thinking but we'll see when the time comes -- we live in a moderate not hot climate and at almost two years, no battery degradation and have close to only 18K miles so have quite a ways to go before we should have to start thinking about it ...

Well, I live in a cool climate and have fewer miles than you do, over just under two years, and I'm down 12% in battery capacity. The range difference is very noticeable. Got down to 29 Gids today, after a routine 68 mile grocery shopping and recycle center trip.

 

[jms]

I'm not going to get bent out of shape yet. At the present time the cost per KW of battery is ~$600 give or take. They are guarding that number but it's out there if you look for it. They estimate that by 2016 the price of lithium batteries will be ~$250 per KW and under $200 by 2020. Plus power density will be improved, new technology could come around so we can't know what it will cost in 8 years. If Nissan doesn't want to sell us a battery pack in 8-10 years then someone else will. Right now I can take my drill down to batteries plus and they will remove my old lithium cells and replace them and my drill will be like new again. Someone will be willing to provide the same service. If they will do it for $5-$6k and do it reliably then I'll be fine with that. I don't need a Nissan part number on my battery for my car to run.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I'm not going to get bent out of shape yet. At the present time the cost per KW of battery is ~$600 give or take. They are guarding that number but it's out there if you look for it. They estimate that by 2016 the price of lithium batteries will be ~$250 per KW and under $200 by 2020. Plus power density will be improved, new technology could come around so we can't know what it will cost in 8 years. If Nissan doesn't want to sell us a battery pack in 8-10 years then someone else will. Right now I can take my drill down to batteries plus and they will remove my old lithium cells and replace them and my drill will be like new again. Someone will be willing to provide the same service. If they will do it for $5-$6k and do it reliably then I'll be fine with that. I don't need a Nissan part number on my battery for my car to run.

A lot of people are making the assumption that an aftermarket battery will be available for the LEAF in the near future. But it strikes me as not nearly so easy as you make it out to be. The LEAF uses proprietary pouch style cells that have to be packaged and connected in just the same way they are in the present battery pack. And they have to be compatible with the charger and the complex charging software, unless you think those will be easy and cheap to replace as well. Comparing that to a simple swap of commercially available cells in a drill pack strikes me as unwarranted.

Can it be done? Sure, someday, if someone wants to put a whole lot of money into the development of the replacement packs. But they better get it exactly right or the whole business model will collapse. Replacing a LEAF battery pack with an aftermarket version isn't going to be simple or cheap, IMO.

 

[edatoakrun]

... Replacing a LEAF battery pack with an aftermarket version isn't going to be simple or cheap, IMO.

No, it will be a complicated and extremely capital-intensive process to manufacture/remanufacture battery packs.

But with ~100,000 LEAFs on the road today (and quite possibly close to double that number by the end of this year, and who knows how many hundred-thousand until the pack design is superseded) many or most of which may be requiring replacement packs someday, I'm sure a lot of battery manufactures are seriously contemplating the billion (or multi-billion?) dollar battery after-market Nissan created when they introduced the LEAF.

And unfortunately, it seems Nissan is only going to announce its own battery replacement price when it absolutely has to, so as to not let the competition see the hard target they need to beat, for as long as possible.

 

[jms]

A lot of people are making the assumption that an aftermarket battery will be available for the LEAF in the near future. But it strikes me as not nearly so easy as you make it out to be. The LEAF uses proprietary pouch style cells that have to be packaged and connected in just the same way they are in the present battery pack. And they have to be compatible with the charger and the complex charging software, unless you think those will be easy and cheap to replace as well. Comparing that to a simple swap of commercially available cells in a drill pack strikes me as unwarranted.

Can it be done? Sure, someday, if someone wants to put a whole lot of money into the development of the replacement packs. But they better get it exactly right or the whole business model will collapse. Replacing a LEAF battery pack with an aftermarket version isn't going to be simple or cheap, IMO.

At their core the battery cells themselves are simple. I wouldn't try to re-engineer the entire car. That would be silly. But at the end of the day it's still basically an overly complex drill. And anyone who wanted to could develop a replacement battery pack and probably design new control circuits etc. and interface with the car (like this guy http://enginer.us/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Leaf+Installation+Manual" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false While that isn't the preferred method, it is A method. So I'm not going to get bent out of shape and worry about the battery now when I wouldn't even be ready to buy one for many more years.

 

[stumusic]

1. I expect to have a warranty replacement of my battery by year 5 or 8 - but only if it degrades below the 70%, thus no $100 per month lease.

Not sure what you mean here. Battery warranty is only good for 5 years/60,000 miles, whichever comes first. Between 5 and 8 years Nissan will replace a failed module under warranty, no coverage for gradual loss of capacity then.

I think there may be a variety of battery warranty offers out there by now. I just leased my 2013 model S, and it has an 8 year/ 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. I leased specifically so I would not be caught with older technology when something new comes along. With this replacement program I might consider paying off the lease and purchasing this car knowing that at some point in the future I can replace my battery with newer tech. I drive roughly 1200 to 1500 miles a month. If I eventually paid $100/month for a battery, the operating cost will still be similar to an ICE getting an average of 40mpg. (If that ever really happens, and actually, if I spread the new battery lease over the total miles on the vehicle, the increased cost per mile over the vehicles lifetime will be very small.) In that case, I'd still prefer the EV option as a cleaner option. (I also hope in the next few years to be generating at least 100% of my electrical needs with solar...)

 

[TomT]

That is just the standard "defective materials or workmanship" warranty. It does not cover battery degradation...

I just leased my 2013 model S, and it has an 8 year/ 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. I

 

[stumusic]

That is just the standard "defective materials or workmanship" warranty. It does not cover battery degradation...

I just leased my 2013 model S, and it has an 8 year/ 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. I

That is not what I was led to believe... I will start digging through my paperwork, hoping you are wrong.

 

[mwalsh]

That is not what I was led to believe... I will start digging through my paperwork, hoping you are wrong.

Think you're going to find that Tom is correct on this one.

 

[GRA]

That is not what I was led to believe... I will start digging through my paperwork, hoping you are wrong.

[Delete 'Think'] You're going to find that Tom is correct on this one.

Fixed that for you As many here can tell you (as they were instrumental in prodding Nissan to introduce it), the car now comes with a 5 yr./60k mile '4-capacity bar loss' warranty on the battery. The 8 yr./100k mile warranty is if you've got a bad cell or similar, but specifically excludes 'normal' degradation. It took almost a year and a class-action lawsuit to get a capacity warranty for the battery. Even that warranty is widely viewed as insufficient, as it doesn't kick in until you've lost almost 34% of capacity, and Nissan is only required to provide a replacement that keeps you at or above that level rather than giving you a new battery. For now they have been providing new replacements, because they don't have enough used packs available. As more cars come off lease that will likely change.

 

[schamberlin]

The $100/month battery lease program was supposed to begin in 2014, right? So is it actually open for sign-ups now, and if so has anyone signed up and gotten their one-time battery replacement? Were details ever explained about what happens with the next owner when you eventually sell the car and exit the battery lease program?

 

[thankyouOB]

The $100/month battery lease program was supposed to begin in 2014, right? So is it actually open for sign-ups now, and if so has anyone signed up and gotten their one-time battery replacement? Were details ever explained about what happens with the next owner when you eventually sell the car and exit the battery lease program?

the SYB?* LEAF chickened out or forgot about it after being told how much owners hated the idea.
your old battery, it is worth nothing. just give it away.
and sign up for a permanent lease. permanent lease? yes, you own the car, nissan owns the most expensive and essential part, forever.


*Steal Your Battery program
----


other than that, nissan is observing worldwide radio silence.
loose lips....

 

[schamberlin]

So what's the status today, then? The $100/month replacement program announced in June 2013 has just quietly died? Is there any program at all for a Leaf owner to get a new battery, either today or expected soonish, other than the 9 bar capacity warranty?

 

[thankyouOB]

So what's the status today, then? The $100/month replacement program announced in June 2013 has just quietly died? Is there any program at all for a Leaf owner to get a new battery, either today or expected soonish, other than the 9 bar capacity warranty?

just curious:
do you have a 2011 leaf or a may 2013; of both?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So what's the status today, then? The $100/month replacement program announced in June 2013 has just quietly died? Is there any program at all for a Leaf owner to get a new battery, either today or expected soonish, other than the 9 bar capacity warranty?

well specifically I dont remember and I probably should but did they say they would announce details this Spring? or was it a First Quarter announcement?

either way, no details or launch date yet

 

[pkulak]

...It takes more electricity to refine OIL into gas than driving on that electricity...

This is not true. While it takes quite a bit of energy to refine oil into gasoline, much of it comes from natural gas, co-generation, and the burning of components of the crude oil. Some time ago someone took that energy number, expressed in kWh, and assumed, incorrectly, that it was the electricity input into the process. Not so.

If it was electricity, that would be better. At least then it has a chance of coming from something renewable. You're saying that it comes from 100% fossil fuels, so it's even _worse_ than if it was electricity.