Poll : $100 a month replacement offer

[DaveinOlyWA]

...It takes more electricity to refine OIL into gas than driving on that electricity...

This is not true. While it takes quite a bit of energy to refine oil into gasoline, much of it comes from natural gas, co-generation, and the burning of components of the crude oil. Some time ago someone took that energy number, expressed in kWh, and assumed, incorrectly, that it was the electricity input into the process. Not so.

sorry but electricity is electricity and its method of generation does not make a difference. what does make a difference is the accepted trade offs. its one thing to accept the pollution from NG produced juice to power the EVs but to accept the pollution to create a product that will produce more pollution is a double whammy and is before we consider the logistics of controlling pollution from a single smoke stack verses millions of tailpipes

 

[dgpcolorado]

...It takes more electricity to refine OIL into gas than driving on that electricity...

This is not true. While it takes quite a bit of energy to refine oil into gasoline, much of it comes from natural gas, co-generation, and the burning of components of the crude oil. Some time ago someone took that energy number, expressed in kWh, and assumed, incorrectly, that it was the electricity input into the process. Not so.

sorry but electricity is electricity and its method of generation does not make a difference. what does make a difference is the accepted trade offs. its one thing to accept the pollution from NG produced juice to power the EVs but to accept the pollution to create a product that will produce more pollution is a double whammy and is before we consider the logistics of controlling pollution from a single smoke stack verses millions of tailpipes

What on earth are you talking about? I was addressing the fallacy that most of the energy used to refine oil into gasoline comes from electricity, that could be better used to fuel EVs directly. Sounds good, but it simply isn't true and making that argument just opens one up to the charge of spreading myths.

None of that has anything to do with the "long tailpipe" argument. I'd be the first to agree that using oil to fuel vehicles is something that we should get away from, for a variety of reasons. I even spent a whole lot of money on my LEAF to do just that (and the LEAF isn't even remotely cost-effective compared to just driving the old ICE car, for my usage pattern).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

None of that has anything to do with the "long tailpipe" argument. I'd be the first to agree that using oil to fuel vehicles is something that we should get away from, for a variety of reasons. I even spent a whole lot of money on my LEAF to do just that (and the LEAF isn't even remotely cost-effective compared to just driving the old ICE car, for my usage pattern).

you are right and that is not the point i am disputing. an oil refinery does use electricity and a lot of it and some do generate electricity to take advantage of some of that energy that would otherwise be waste heat but its still generating pollution AND nearly every oil refinery in the US is connected to and using electricity from the grid

now, maybe i missed it but dont recall seeing this added into the analysis when they state that driving a Prius in coal burning states would be cleaner...

 

[pkulak]

What on earth are you talking about? I was addressing the fallacy that most of the energy used to refine oil into gasoline comes from electricity, that could be better used to fuel EVs directly. Sounds good, but it simply isn't true and making that argument just opens one up to the charge of spreading myths.

You're the only one making the argument that as long as burning fossil fuels can't ever power a car it's okay. You're literally trying to make the case that because we're spewing all kinds of **** into our air in the cause of making gas, to burn later and spew even more ****, it's okay? It's not like electricity is some finite resource and the only objection that people have is that they won't get their piece of the pie.

 

[thankyouOB]

i keep looking for the email from NISSAN explaining the SYB program and when it starts, or for the real replacement program.

do old LEAFS have to hold a die-in to get NISSAN's attention?

 

[uwskier20]

i keep looking for the email from NISSAN explaining the SYB program and when it starts, or for the real replacement program.

I find the silence from Nissan to be very unsettling. My only hope is that they're putting together something more substantive.

 

[smkettner]

I doubt the program will be announced until the lizard battery is available in the fall(at best).
In the mean time my $100 is going toward the RAV4-EV.

 

[uwskier20]

I doubt the program will be announced until the lizard battery is available in the fall(at best).
In the mean time my $100 is going toward the RAV4-EV.

I really like the RAV4, but for the lack of a fast-charging option. I know it can do 10 kW (and heck, chargers can be upgraded; Brusa offers a 22-kW unit now), but that requires having infrastructure that can keep up. The RAV4 is definitely something I'm keeping my eye on.

 

[dgpcolorado]

What on earth are you talking about? I was addressing the fallacy that most of the energy used to refine oil into gasoline comes from electricity, that could be better used to fuel EVs directly. Sounds good, but it simply isn't true and making that argument just opens one up to the charge of spreading myths.

You're the only one making the argument that as long as burning fossil fuels can't ever power a car it's okay. You're literally trying to make the case that because we're spewing all kinds of **** into our air in the cause of making gas, to burn later and spew even more ****, it's okay? It's not like electricity is some finite resource and the only objection that people have is that they won't get their piece of the pie.

No, No, No. You completely misunderstand. There is an argument out there that refineries use so much electricity that it would be better to just use it to power electric cars and skip all the oil and gasoline. Sounds great, right? The problem is that it was based on a myth that the energy used to refine oil into gasoline was electricity when the large majority of it was not. And that energy, is not the equivalent of that number of kWh of electricity (because using it to generate electricity has large losses). It has nothing whatever to do with whether refining oil into gasoline is good for the environment.

The problem is that this myth ["It takes more electricity to refine OIL into gas than driving on that electricity"] keeps getting repeated and, since it is false, or misleading at best, it is easily attacked by EV opponents. There are plenty of good reasons why EVs should supplant fossil fuel vehicles without spreading false ones. That's all I'm saying. And if you still don't "get" it and try to twist my words into saying something I did not, then I give up.

 

[oscar]

My 2011 Nissan Leaf is running out of juice. I need Nissan to offer a sell price of a new battery pack or lease option.

This is ridicules for early adopter to sit around and suffur. If Nissan can't get their act together, I don't recommend anyone buying a Nissan Leaf!

Is their a lawyer in house to take this case up.

 

[thankyouOB]

My 2011 Nissan Leaf is running out of juice. I need Nissan to offer a sell price of a new battery pack or lease option.

This is ridicules for early adopter to sit around and suffur. If Nissan can't get their act together, I don't recommend anyone buying a Nissan Leaf!

Is their a lawyer in house to take this case up.

interesting post.
what are the damages? loss of use?
failure to provide parts for the car--that seems like a key issue.

 

[RonDawg]

It's not legal in this country to sell a new car that doesn't run. This is what stopped the battery lease and the battery swap plans.

Somebody needs to tell Mercedes-Benz USA, because the Smart Electric Drive is offered in this country with or without ownership of the battery. It's $5k off the purchase price if you don't own the battery, and I think $100/month to lease the battery itself.

 

[luddite]

I'm not going to get bent out of shape yet. At the present time the cost per KW of battery is ~$600 give or take. They are guarding that number but it's out there if you look for it. They estimate that by 2016 the price of lithium batteries will be ~$250 per KW and under $200 by 2020. Plus power density will be improved, new technology could come around so we can't know what it will cost in 8 years. If Nissan doesn't want to sell us a battery pack in 8-10 years then someone else will. Right now I can take my drill down to batteries plus and they will remove my old lithium cells and replace them and my drill will be like new again. Someone will be willing to provide the same service. If they will do it for $5-$6k and do it reliably then I'll be fine with that. I don't need a Nissan part number on my battery for my car to run.

So at present, am I correct in assuming that the Leaf is a good car if I don't mind a 50 mile range in about 5 years?
And if I drive 15k per year, it needs a new battery every 4 years to get back to 80-ish miles?
A $6,000 battery every four years doesn't seem as thrifty as I once imagined......

 

[RonDawg]

So at present, am I correct in assuming that the Leaf is a good car if I don't mind a 50 mile range in about 5 years?
And if I drive 15k per year, it needs a new battery every 4 years to get back to 80-ish miles?
A $6,000 battery every four years doesn't seem as thrifty as I once imagined......

Nissan considers a battery at "end of life" when its capacity drops to 70% of new. Assuming the EPA-rated 84 mile range reflects your actual driving conditions, 70% of that is 58.8 miles.

As far as when it drops to 70%, climate seems to be the single biggest factor of all. If you live in Seattle, your battery will take longer to lose 30% capacity than if you lived in Phoenix or Vegas.

The Wiki has a capacity-loss predictor based upon location only: http://electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Christopher]

I'm not going to get bent out of shape yet. At the present time the cost per KW of battery is ~$600 give or take. They are guarding that number but it's out there if you look for it. They estimate that by 2016 the price of lithium batteries will be ~$250 per KW and under $200 by 2020. Plus power density will be improved, new technology could come around so we can't know what it will cost in 8 years. If Nissan doesn't want to sell us a battery pack in 8-10 years then someone else will. Right now I can take my drill down to batteries plus and they will remove my old lithium cells and replace them and my drill will be like new again. Someone will be willing to provide the same service. If they will do it for $5-$6k and do it reliably then I'll be fine with that. I don't need a Nissan part number on my battery for my car to run.

So at present, am I correct in assuming that the Leaf is a good car if I don't mind a 50 mile range in about 5 years?
And if I drive 15k per year, it needs a new battery every 4 years to get back to 80-ish miles?
A $6,000 battery every four years doesn't seem as thrifty as I once imagined......

I suppose your question is somewhat rhetorical, but keep in mind that what is being said is that battery tech is improving so a replacement might have 50% more range at the same weight, last twice as long and cost half as much per kW, etc... In other words, you'll have less and less of a need to replace it.

 

[thankyouOB]

right about now, a month short of 3 years ownership and >37k miles, I state unequivocally that i am forced to believe in tinker bell and so will just keep clapping.

 

[kubel]

Nissan considers a battery at "end of life" when its capacity drops to 70% of new. Assuming the EPA-rated 84 mile range reflects your actual driving conditions, 70% of that is 58.8 miles.

Also consider that if you live in a northern state, you can see half of that 58.8 mile remaining capacity lost due to climate control, a cold pack, and increased rolling resistance and drag associated with snow and cold air.

An end of life battery in winter here in Michigan might only be good for 30 miles with a 100% charge. Paying $100/mo to that point for the battery replacement program is not an acceptable offer.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Also consider that if you live in a northern state, you can see half of that 58.8 mile remaining capacity lost due to climate control, a cold pack, and increased rolling resistance and drag associated with snow and cold air...

Yes, exactly. In some parts of the country winter happens.

 

[PanderYo]

Who is ready to take up a class action lawsuit for this? I will sign up. Give us the price of replacing a battery, not leasing one.

 

[jstack6]

And even if you believe that climate change is a myth, you can't deny that our thirst for oil has side effects on our foreign policy, and how we have to stay friendly to Saudi Arabia .

[/quote]

-Just for the record the USA imports $1 Billion a day in OIL. It take 4-8 kWh of electricity to refine a gallon of OIL into gas.
-A 9 lbs gallon of gas makes 20 lbs of pollution, It combines with good oxygen to make more than it weight.
-electric car is 80-90% efficient while a gas car is 29% or less, a Full hybrid is 30-40% and diesel is 40% efficient yet still wears out brakes exhaust and 2000 other parts. (no transmission either)

-So I'll drive electric before anything other than my USA made bicycle.