NIssan Quality, Not Impressed

[Boomer23]

After reading this thread yesterday I went over my LEAF carefully today, flashlight and wrench in hand. I did not take anything apart but checked the accessible areas, including under the car, testing nuts and bolts, and pullling on cables etc. I could not find anything that was loose or seemingly not properly installed. The carpet looks like new after 1,900 miles and 3 months - I do have the mats.

Maybe they delivered the LEAF that needed post-delivery assembly to EVDRIVER after reading his posts here and realizing that he'd likely be opening his car up and that he'd have the competence to complete the assembly. :lol:

 

[Train]

I've seen many Nissan models up close and the seat fabric is really excellent. Perhaps recycled bottles should be used to make more plastic bottles, insulation or something else and not seat material or carpet.

As a first year model, niggles like this are to be expected but I understand the original poster's dismay. For the money, I would expect things to be done right the first time.

 

[daniel]

... For the money, I would expect things to be done right the first time.

I'd like things to be done right the first time also, but this is an extremely inexpensive car when you realize that batteries are still very expensive. For the range and the acceleration, and considering that the glider portion is brand new (a conversion might use a nearly-free junker for the glider and a hobbyist might not count his own labor in the cost) I'm surprised how little the Leaf costs.

Of course, now that they've pushed me back to Month of July, I have a lot of time to change my mind and decide to just stick with my surprisingly reliable little Xebra.

 

[HIOJim]

...Of course, now that they've pushed me back to Month of July, I have a lot of time to change my mind and decide to just stick with my surprisingly reliable little Xebra.

Daniel, what's the status of your electric Porsche conversion? Will it be using lead/acid batteries and what is the projected range?

 

[GeekEV]

Please be careful when trimming quotes. You've attributed Daniel's statement to Train because you trimmed it wrong...

 

[HIOJim]

Please be careful when trimming quotes. You've attributed Daniel's statement to Train because you trimmed it wrong...

Ah, my bad. Fixed it!

 

[daniel]

Daniel, what's the status of your electric Porsche conversion? Will it be using lead/acid batteries and what is the projected range?

The fellow doing the conversion expects to have it done very soon. Like, this month. He'd like to have it done for Earth Day, but that may be overly optimistic. He's doing a really nice job on it. On the assumption that my new Leaf dashboard date is BS, it's a toss-up which car I'll get first. I should have had the Porsche two years ago! I deeply regret ever having bought it, but the guy fixing it thinks I'll be very happy with it when I get it, though the whole point was to have a freeway-capable EV, and the soon-to-arrive Leaf is that, so in the end, all that money spent on the Porsche was for nothing. It's the third-worst mistake I've ever made in my life. (And, no, I won't reveal numbers one and two, though neither had anything to do with cars.)

Batteries are LiFePO4. Range was 80 miles to empty (calculated) during the brief time I was driving it after the original conversion, and I don't expect that to change. That's based on 55 mph on the freeway. I'll drive it harder when I don't need to go as far. That translates to 64 miles to 80% DoD, which the battery importer told me is a safe level for these batteries.

(The original conversion guy promised me 125 miles to empty, which would have been 100 miles safe. He actually spent 2/3 of the money specified for batteries in the contract. If he'd bought all the batteries I paid for I'd have had the range promised, though I'm not sure it would have been possible to fit them into the car. But he should have known that when he agreed to put 125 miles range in the contract.)

The guy doing the fixing says it'll have enough power to break the tires free. I doubt that. It has an eleven inch WarP motor from Netgain, and will now have a 1,000-amp water-cooled controller developed in cooperation with NetGain especially for their motors. Battery impedance will probably be the bottleneck to acceleration, since the LiFePO4 batteries have high impedance. The contract for the original conversion specified a 1,000-amp controller, but the guy used a 500-amp Curtis instead, and the Curtis overheats and then cuts back to protect itself, until after half an hour of driving it delivers (IIRC) around 150 amps. The new controller will run as cool as a cucumber with its water cooling. The LiFePO4 chemistry is supposed to be thermally stable. Knock on wood!!! Because the car will make them work.

I guess this does not belong in this thread. If a mod wants to break it out into another thread along with the question that prompted it, feel free.

 

[SanDust]

But I've never heard a single complaint about the EV1 from anyone who had one.

Some caught fire. Some had wheels fall off. Definitely far fewer problems with the Leafs. Part of this may be because the Leafs are production vehicles and part may be that cars are better built than they were in 1996.

Hopefully any production problems will be fixed, but the Leaf is and has always been something of an econobox. You can't produce a cutting edge car with new technology at the price point Nissan hit without cutting some corners. Maybe they cut a few too many but that's just life. It's really quite an achievement.

 

[adric22]

To be honest I just now discovered this thread and after reading through, I'm shocked. I've had a Leaf for 2 weeks now and I've been very impressed with the quality of the vehicle. I was driving a 2008 Prius before. Granted, I haven't taken anything apart so I wouldn't have found loose screws or anything. But I certainly haven't noticed the seats or carpet as being cheap. The stereo system sounds fine to me. Everyone that has taken a ride or drive of the car has been very impressed with the quality and quietness of the car.

Even if it is true that the quality of the interior materials is lacking, and even if it is true that the assembly process has been less than perfect, my concern for the car is how well the electric drive system and the battery hold up over time. If the carpet wears out prematurely, I doubt you'll hear about that on the evening news. But if the batteries start frying themselves or the electric motor windings short out or something of that nature, you'll surely never hear the end of it and all of the EV naysayers will be cheering in the streets.

I suspect these assembly issues either have already been address by Nissan or will be shortly. Most likely the people assembling them just haven't been well trained yet.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Daniel, what's the status of your electric Porsche conversion? Will it be using lead/acid batteries and what is the projected range?

The fellow doing the conversion expects to have it done very soon. Like, this month. He'd like to have it done for Earth Day, but that may be overly optimistic. He's doing a really nice job on it. On the assumption that my new Leaf dashboard date is BS, it's a toss-up which car I'll get first. I should have had the Porsche two years ago! I deeply regret ever having bought it, but the guy fixing it thinks I'll be very happy with it when I get it, though the whole point was to have a freeway-capable EV, and the soon-to-arrive Leaf is that, so in the end, all that money spent on the Porsche was for nothing. It's the third-worst mistake I've ever made in my life. (And, no, I won't reveal numbers one and two, though neither had anything to do with cars.)

Batteries are LiFePO4. Range was 80 miles to empty (calculated) during the brief time I was driving it after the original conversion, and I don't expect that to change. That's based on 55 mph on the freeway. I'll drive it harder when I don't need to go as far. That translates to 64 miles to 80% DoD, which the battery importer told me is a safe level for these batteries.

(The original conversion guy promised me 125 miles to empty, which would have been 100 miles safe. He actually spent 2/3 of the money specified for batteries in the contract. If he'd bought all the batteries I paid for I'd have had the range promised, though I'm not sure it would have been possible to fit them into the car. But he should have known that when he agreed to put 125 miles range in the contract.)

The guy doing the fixing says it'll have enough power to break the tires free. I doubt that. It has an eleven inch WarP motor from Netgain, and will now have a 1,000-amp water-cooled controller developed in cooperation with NetGain especially for their motors. Battery impedance will probably be the bottleneck to acceleration, since the LiFePO4 batteries have high impedance. The contract for the original conversion specified a 1,000-amp controller, but the guy used a 500-amp Curtis instead, and the Curtis overheats and then cuts back to protect itself, until after half an hour of driving it delivers (IIRC) around 150 amps. The new controller will run as cool as a cucumber with its water cooling. The LiFePO4 chemistry is supposed to be thermally stable. Knock on wood!!! Because the car will make them work.

I guess this does not belong in this thread. If a mod wants to break it out into another thread along with the question that prompted it, feel free.

If you are using a Warp 11 and the controller works as good as a Zilla you should have more torque than a large V8. A warp 11 on a transmission in a fixed gear can move a very large vehicle. I built a conversion with a Warp 9 and Zilla 1K and I could start in 3rd gear and easily smoke the tires to the rims. A 11" motor has a lower RPM limit and more mass to spin and the added weight so it is better for heavy conversions and direct drive applications. But this is very OT.

 

[daniel]

Daniel, what's the status of your electric Porsche conversion? Will it be using lead/acid batteries and what is the projected range?

The fellow doing the conversion expects to have it done very soon. Like, this month. He'd like to have it done for Earth Day, but that may be overly optimistic. He's doing a really nice job on it. On the assumption that my new Leaf dashboard date is BS, it's a toss-up which car I'll get first. I should have had the Porsche two years ago! I deeply regret ever having bought it, but the guy fixing it thinks I'll be very happy with it when I get it, though the whole point was to have a freeway-capable EV, and the soon-to-arrive Leaf is that, so in the end, all that money spent on the Porsche was for nothing. It's the third-worst mistake I've ever made in my life. (And, no, I won't reveal numbers one and two, though neither had anything to do with cars.)

Batteries are LiFePO4. Range was 80 miles to empty (calculated) during the brief time I was driving it after the original conversion, and I don't expect that to change. That's based on 55 mph on the freeway. I'll drive it harder when I don't need to go as far. That translates to 64 miles to 80% DoD, which the battery importer told me is a safe level for these batteries.

(The original conversion guy promised me 125 miles to empty, which would have been 100 miles safe. He actually spent 2/3 of the money specified for batteries in the contract. If he'd bought all the batteries I paid for I'd have had the range promised, though I'm not sure it would have been possible to fit them into the car. But he should have known that when he agreed to put 125 miles range in the contract.)

The guy doing the fixing says it'll have enough power to break the tires free. I doubt that. It has an eleven inch WarP motor from Netgain, and will now have a 1,000-amp water-cooled controller developed in cooperation with NetGain especially for their motors. Battery impedance will probably be the bottleneck to acceleration, since the LiFePO4 batteries have high impedance. The contract for the original conversion specified a 1,000-amp controller, but the guy used a 500-amp Curtis instead, and the Curtis overheats and then cuts back to protect itself, until after half an hour of driving it delivers (IIRC) around 150 amps. The new controller will run as cool as a cucumber with its water cooling. The LiFePO4 chemistry is supposed to be thermally stable. Knock on wood!!! Because the car will make them work.

I guess this does not belong in this thread. If a mod wants to break it out into another thread along with the question that prompted it, feel free.

If you are using a Warp 11 and the controller works as good as a Zilla you should have more torque than a large V8. A warp 11 on a transmission in a fixed gear can move a very large vehicle. I built a conversion with a Warp 9 and Zilla 1K and I could start in 3rd gear and easily smoke the tires to the rims. A 11" motor has a lower RPM limit and more mass to spin and the added weight so it is better for heavy conversions and direct drive applications. But this is very OT.

Good to hear. It wasn't until after I had the car that I learned that the 11 inch motor might not have been the best for the application. But the new controller ought to be as good as a Zilla, based on what I'm hearing from the EV conversion people. OTOH if you were using lead batteries you might have had lower impedance. Voltage also makes a difference. Mine is 144 volts IIRC. (The contract promised me 225+ volts. But the folks at NetGain said 144 v is ideal for this motor.)

I expect to have the car this month, or more likely next, barring unexpected problems.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Batteries are LiFePO4. Range was 80 miles to empty (calculated) during the brief time I was driving it after the original conversion, and I don't expect that to change. That's based on 55 mph on the freeway. I'll drive it harder when I don't need to go as far. That translates to 64 miles to 80% DoD, which the battery importer told me is a safe level for these batteries.

(The original conversion guy promised me 125 miles to empty, which would have been 100 miles safe. He actually spent 2/3 of the money specified for batteries in the contract. If he'd bought all the batteries I paid for I'd have had the range promised, though I'm not sure it would have been possible to fit them into the car. But he should have known that when he agreed to put 125 miles range in the contract.)

The guy doing the fixing says it'll have enough power to break the tires free. I doubt that. It has an eleven inch WarP motor from Netgain, and will now have a 1,000-amp water-cooled controller developed in cooperation with NetGain especially for their motors. Battery impedance will probably be the bottleneck to acceleration, since the LiFePO4 batteries have high impedance. The contract for the original conversion specified a 1,000-amp controller, but the guy used a 500-amp Curtis instead, and the Curtis overheats and then cuts back to protect itself, until after half an hour of driving it delivers (IIRC) around 150 amps. The new controller will run as cool as a cucumber with its water cooling. The LiFePO4 chemistry is supposed to be thermally stable. Knock on wood!!! Because the car will make them work.

I guess this does not belong in this thread. If a mod wants to break it out into another thread along with the question that prompted it, feel free.

If you are using a Warp 11 and the controller works as good as a Zilla you should have more torque than a large V8. A warp 11 on a transmission in a fixed gear can move a very large vehicle. I built a conversion with a Warp 9 and Zilla 1K and I could start in 3rd gear and easily smoke the tires to the rims. A 11" motor has a lower RPM limit and more mass to spin and the added weight so it is better for heavy conversions and direct drive applications. But this is very OT.

Good to hear. It wasn't until after I had the car that I learned that the 11 inch motor might not have been the best for the application. But the new controller ought to be as good as a Zilla, based on what I'm hearing from the EV conversion people. OTOH if you were using lead batteries you might have had lower impedance. Voltage also makes a difference. Mine is 144 volts IIRC. (The contract promised me 225+ volts. But the folks at NetGain said 144 v is ideal for this motor.)

I expect to have the car this month, or more likely next, barring unexpected problems.

My pack ran at 216V and I wish it were a bit higher at the time. 144 is ideal operation for the motor but that is not what you will get with sag if that is your nominal pack voltage. As SOC drops so will your pack voltage as well. I'm sure you will enjoy it and if it is built well you should get some great use out of it. My conversion was quick and could do about 125 even at it's very high weight, if I had an 11" I could easily break the transmission and I could already slip a hard core racing clutch.

 

[ERG4ALL]

Regarding denigrating the cruise control, I don't believe that Nissan put it in thinking that people would be taking such long trips that it would be necessary. The best use of the cruise control is in extending range. Whatever the speed limit is, 35, 45, 55, I set the cruise control to that speed and use the ECO mode. It is great to ride by speed cameras and police speed traps without any anxiety. If I don't use cruise control, I find that gradually my speed starts creeping up until I'm 5 or 10 over the limit which hurts the mileage. In real world driving I'm getting better than the EPA rating of 73 miles per charge and that is charging only to 80%! I will admit that in 65 mph speed zones I normally will set the cruise control for 60 unless I'm heading home and I know I have plenty of range left, then I'll go 65. In rural hilly country plus about 40% city traffic I am getting between 4.5 and 5.0 miles per kWh. I'm glad the LEAF has cruise control.

Regarding floor mats, I sprung for the upgrade and after over 1,500 miles they still look great.

I've had no squeaks or rattles or wires hanging down or loose nuts under the hood. So far I'm entirely satisfied with the car.

 

[daniel]

Thanks for the positive report, ERG.

 

[Yohannon]

Still, the Leaf will be a big step up from my Zap Xebra SD, which is my daily driver now. I only drive the Prius when I have to go farther than the Xebra will go, or when the road is snowy or icy.

Amen to that, sir. I ride a 2006 ZAP Truck currently. You want to talk about Chinese manufacture? Now THAT was an insanely expensive car for what you received. Factor in the 84V upgrade and I will have spent about 2/3 what I will on the Leaf after the incentives... if I manage to get them.

However, it set my expectations to an almost absurdly low level. Level one charging? Not a problem. Carpeting? Zap doesn't have them. Environment control? Excuse me while I laugh at the thought of the Zap's lack of AC, an electric heater more suitable for warming a pair of socks, not to mention the horrible weather stripping that allowed water and cold air in. All with a lovely set of lead acid batteries to boot.

This would not excuse, for example, bad build issues such as improper wiring or missing fasteners -- but after having the interior AND exterior driver's side door handles break off in my hands on the Zap (which requires me to enter the car through the passenger side), the latter after I had locked the car (the passenger side door does not have an exterior lock -- now THAT's cutting corners), I have difficulty believing that Nissan could do WORSE. At least there are dealerships everywhere here and a real warranty (the Zap only had a SIX MONTH warranty!).

~Y~

 

[charlie1300]

I think we all need to be aware that this forum is putting the Leaf under much more scrutiny that would be involved in the average car purchase. So in answering the question "Is the Leaf for me?" you have to remember that one man's outrage is another man's I could care less.

You may think I have a few screws loose, but a few months after my wife bought her Nissan Altima, I was vacuuming the carpets and found a couple small screws on the floor, and thought nothing of it. 6 years and 104,000 miles later, we both agree it's the most reliable car that we've ever owned. No repairs required other than routine maintenance (oil change, brake pads, tires, etc).

Keep you eye on the big picture of what do I want from this car, and does the specific fault that was found really matter to me.

 

[ERG4ALL]

I have another positive report. I just got back from having my LEAF's software upgraded by the regional Nissan rep. What makes NIssan's level of commitment outstanding is the following. After I took delivery of the vehicle, I trailered it up into the mountains at our summer home that is over 200 miles away from the dealer. The final non-beta upgrade was released on Friday. I got a call yesterday (Monday) that Nissan wanted to upgrade the software on Tuesday and that includes the rep driving the distance, upgrading the car, and driving back the same day.

What makes this even more significant is that my car wasn't exhibiting any of the problems that the others had. It certainly may if certain conditions were met, but it never occurred. Nissan was just making sure.

Because the dealer here in Show Low (with multiple brands, Nissan, GMC and Buick), AZ is small, they could not afford to become LEAF certified. Even so they were gracious in letting the rep use the facility on short notice (I'm sure there is some inter-company billing). What was I think prophetic was when all of the mechanics came up to look at the vehicle, one of them somewhat wistfully commented words to the effect that the mechanically oriented mechanics will need to adapt or be left behind with the new technology.

Those that are extra critical of the LEAF at this early stage perhaps would be better off if they weren't early adopters. They should wait until all of the wrinkles have been ironed out before making the commitment. I worked for awhile in the Detroit auto industry and can appreciate the thousands if not millions of details in bringing a new car to market, right down to the torque settings on each automated wrench on the assembly line and the location of each and every bolt and training curve of every employee that touches the car. Given the incredible logistics of this undertaking I have been very impressed with Nissan and with the car in general.

 

[buddf]

To help others who read through this and are starting to wander I can add that Nissan makes great cars for the money. I have owned many Nissan cars and currently drive a 92 Nissan Sentra. It stills drives great and gets 36 mi/gal on the highway (the main reason I still have it). Overall I have been very happy with Nissan and while I am awaiting my Leaf, I am sure the longevity of critical parts will still be similar.

 

[daniel]

Still, the Leaf will be a big step up from my Zap Xebra SD, which is my daily driver now. I only drive the Prius when I have to go farther than the Xebra will go, or when the road is snowy or icy.

Amen to that, sir. I ride a 2006 ZAP Truck currently. You want to talk about Chinese manufacture? Now THAT was an insanely expensive car for what you received. Factor in the 84V upgrade and I will have spent about 2/3 what I will on the Leaf after the incentives... if I manage to get them.

However, it set my expectations to an almost absurdly low level. Level one charging? Not a problem. Carpeting? Zap doesn't have them. Environment control? Excuse me while I laugh at the thought of the Zap's lack of AC, an electric heater more suitable for warming a pair of socks, not to mention the horrible weather stripping that allowed water and cold air in. All with a lovely set of lead acid batteries to boot.

This would not excuse, for example, bad build issues such as improper wiring or missing fasteners -- but after having the interior AND exterior driver's side door handles break off in my hands on the Zap (which requires me to enter the car through the passenger side), the latter after I had locked the car (the passenger side door does not have an exterior lock -- now THAT's cutting corners), I have difficulty believing that Nissan could do WORSE. At least there are dealerships everywhere here and a real warranty (the Zap only had a SIX MONTH warranty!).

~Y~

My experience has been better. Sean Rarey of Grant's Pass Electric Vehicles did not sell a Xebra without first driving it for about 200 miles and fixing all the problems that cropped up. The problems I did have to fix were an off-center turn-signal-cancel switch, some loose wires, and maybe one or two other minor items. The SD did come with floor mats (or maybe Sean installed them???). He also installed (at added cost) a really powerful heater, and fixed the wobbly rear-view mirror.

Your PK has very nice seats, but the SD had dreadful seats, and Sean upgraded the upholstery for me (for a price). So far my door handles are all intact. Knock on wood!

But I paid for the 84-volt long-range battery pack (seven big honking AGM lead batteries) which started to go bad after 6 months because I was regularly driving them to 25% SoC because I didn't know any better, and ended up springing for $6,000 for a LiFePO pack which has higher impedance and is nominally 72 volts rather than 84, so the car no longer has enough power to go up steep hills, and slows down even on moderate hills.

But since putting in the lithium pack, I've actually had no problems at all with the car. And it's allowed me to drive electric for these four years. I'll be glad to upgrade to the Leaf, but I've got no regrets about buying the Xebra or the money I put into it. I suppose it'll be worth about a dollar and fifty cents when I sell it. I REALLY REALLY wanted to drive electric and the Xebra let me do that. If it had been able to get to its 35-mph maximum speed a bit quicker, and maintain it going up hills, I probably wouldn't even have bothered ordering a Leaf. Or maybe I would have, but just for the added range.

 

[daniel]

Daniel, what's the status of your electric Porsche conversion? Will it be using lead/acid batteries and what is the projected range?

With apologies because this really isn't the thread for it, since the question was asked here I'll update: The replacement batteries for the Porsche (replacing the ones the original conversion shop ruined but put in my car anyway!) and which were supposed to have gotten here some time ago, are reportedly (reportedly!!!) on the boat in port. They'll have to clear customs, then be shipped to the warehouse in Utah, and then here. So that car is AT LEAST a month away. It was two years ago June that I bought it and turned it over to the original conversion shop in FL.