Cutting it close too often. Merry Xmas !

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FYI; another day of SO driving. 58 miles with heat blasting away all the time, etc. and ended up at 3.5 miles/kwh. a bit "higher" performance due to a mix of 50% city driving but keep in mind; city driving means covering less miles in more time. the heat is basically a time only thing so the hit should be greater. I think the "saving" grace was my 15 miles i put on it without any heat. pretty sure it was at 3.2 miles/kwh when I used it last night and yes temps were below freezing (we actually had snow! but we were in only area that it did not stick)
 
Hi Dan,

DanBaldwin said:
One of the common themes I'm seeing in your posts is "with heat, defogger......", and the way you state it, it seems like you're running the defroster the whole time.

Yes, that's correct, I am. My experience is that when I turn it off, most of the time fog starts to form again within a couple of minutes. The car has this very annoying behavior when it switches from heat to A/C when you switch the defogger, I think it's when you switch it off. Sometimes I don't notice until the air is cold and I see the A/C light on. And I really don't like cold air. So if I have to start the trip with the defogger, I will leave it on.

The defroster typically takes 4.5 kw in my car, so I only run it for a few minutes at a time, only enough to remove the frost from the windshield. It's possible that the power drawn by the defroster drops after a while, but I've never left it on long enough to find out because it draws 4.5 kw. At low speeds and in traffic, that might be enough to cut your range by half. I'm in the Los Angeles area, so perhaps I need less defrosting than you do.

Yes, and I do about half of my driving at night time so that impacts the need for defogger too.

Perhaps the reason you can't remember the "so what's the problem" comment by Dave is that it didn't quite happen the way he remembers it. It wasn't in post 2 or 3, it was post 29 on page 3, and he said;

DaveinOlyWA said:
Well you made it so you did ok. as far as taking the Prius? you made it so no worries.

Not a question, but a statement, so no reason to wait for a response, unless I missed a post.

Right, I had seen that statement, but didn't feel the need to respond.
 
edatoakrun,

edatoakrun said:
Actually, while Tony corrected his range chart long ago to get the temperature impact about right, IMO (but only if you assume battery and ambient temperatures are identical) The recovery of ascent energy shown in the chart is significantly in error, being both too low and imprecise. Tony, like some others LEAF drivers, never used Carwings, so they never benefited from the CW regen energy reports, which indicate this range chart error.

Check out the range test thread below, where I have posted multiple results of range tests which clearly show that ascent energy on this route always exceeds the 50% to 75% range indicated in the range chart. In fact, you could in theory recover close to 100% of ascent energy by descending using no regen at all, but this is not practical, for obvious reasons...

Thanks for the very informative post.

I have now discovered another Carwings screen I never clicked on, the "electric rate simulation".
I would never have figured out that this would give the breakdown of energy for each trip. Very useful !

It's unfortunately if the car's gauges are not accurate :( Of course that will lead to Carwings data being inaccurate. I don't know what other data to use.
 
madbrain said:
The car has this very annoying behavior when it switches from heat to A/C when you switch the defogger, I think it's when you switch it off. Sometimes I don't notice until the air is cold and I see the A/C light on. And I really don't like cold air. So if I have to start the trip with the defogger, I will leave it on.
Phil came up with a solution for this annoying "feature". Your accessory usage did not seem super excessive, which I found surprising. Did you check how you ranked compared to others in this category on Carwings?
 
I am adding the data inline from the Carwings electric usage records.

madbrain said:
This is how Xmas Eve went in my Leaf.
12/24 charged 100% at work . All 12 bars showing. This is a 2 months old car.

7:30pm Commute home Santa Clara to east SJ foothills : 12.8 miles . max freeway speed = 65 mph . Car is down to 9 bars when I get home.

Carwings : total consumption : 4.7 kWh . Consumption : 5.1 kWh . Regeneration : 0.4 kWh . Distance : 13.1 miles. 2.8 miles/kWh


9pm going to dinner : east SJ foothills to Mountain View : 19.1 miles. max freeway speed = 65 mph

Carwings : total consumption : 4.8 kWh . Consumption : 5.7 kWh . Regeneration : 0.9 kWh . Distance : 18.8 miles. 3.9 miles/kWh

11pm go to movie : Mountain View to South SJ : 18.8 miles . max freeway speed = 55 mph . We were conscious to conserve battery

Carwings : total consumption : 5.5 kWh . Consumption : 5.9 kWh . Regeneration : 0.4 kWh . Distance : 18.8 miles. 3.4 miles/kWh

2am drive home from South SJ to east SJ foothills : 13.2 miles . freeway speed = 50mph, on cruise control

Carwings : total consumption : 4.4 kWh . Consumption : 4.8 kWh . Regeneration : 0.4 kWh . Distance : 13.9 miles. 3.1 miles/kWh

Total distance : 63.9 miles . Freeway miles : about 50 . We did have the heat the whole time, on lowest setting (1 bar).

Carwings : 64.6 miles . Total consumption : 19.4 kWh . 3.3 miles/kWh .

Note: the difference in distances is because my original post estimates had data from google maps. I hadn't looked at the odometer. The carwings miles data must be more accurate.
 
surfingslovak said:
madbrain said:
The car has this very annoying behavior when it switches from heat to A/C when you switch the defogger, I think it's when you switch it off. Sometimes I don't notice until the air is cold and I see the A/C light on. And I really don't like cold air. So if I have to start the trip with the defogger, I will leave it on.
Phil came up with a solution for this annoying "feature". Your accessory usage did not seem super excessive, which I found surprising. Did you check how you ranked compared to others in this category on Carwings?

Thanks, I will check that out !
I don't see how I can check the ranking per category. The ranking page that I see is only for overall miles/kWh .

When I click on the rankings page, this is what I see at the bottom :

Your rank for the past 12 months
Month and Year Grade Rank Energy Economy
Oct/2012 Silver 8558 3.7 miles/kWh
Nov/2012 Silver 9174 3.4 miles/kWh
Dec/2012 Silver 9559 3.2 miles/kWh
 
madbrain said:
Just one example - that one 4.1 miles roundtrip from home to the grocery and back at a peak speed of 35 mph had a 2.3 miles/kWh average on carwings. Starting and ending elevation was exactly the same.

Since I have now discovered the Carwings page for Electric rate simulation, here is the Carwings data for those trips :

Trip 1 (downhill) : Total consumption : 0.3 kWh . Consumption : 0.5 kWh . Regenerated : 0.1 kWh . 2.0 miles . 5.8 miles/kWh .
Trip 2 (uphill): Total consumption : 1.4 kWh . Consumption : 1.5 kWh . Regenerated : 0.1 kWh . 2.0 miles . 1.4 miles/kWh .

Net is : 1.7 kWh . 4.0 miles . Averages to 2.3 miles/kWh as shown in the daily report for Dec 23 since these were the only trips that day.

Both of these trips had the heat on, though the car was in the garage at the beginning, so the heater didn't work as hard in trip 1 as in trip 2 .
These were the exact same routes and the speed must have been very similar, maybe a bit faster on the downhill than uphill. Carwings doesn't show the time or average speed for each trip.

As you can see, the car used over 4 times as much energy on the return trip. I think it has to do with the hill more than with the heat in this case.
 
LEAFer said:
madbrain said:
Well, FYI, I had a flat recently. One tire had to be replaced on 12/11/2012. Hopefully, for the $157 that the Nissan dealer charged for the matching tire, they checked the tire pressure.
I suggest you get a tire pressure gauge and check all four tires on a regular basis. Inflate all four to 40psi (when "cold", i.e. not having driven the car in at least 6 hours).

I do have a tire gauge. I can check it cold at home easily. But I would have to drive somewhere to get air and inflate, if needed. At that point, the tires wouldn't be cold anymore.
 
What I notice from the above is the lack of regenerated energy. You now drive a power plant, and utilizing that feature will aid you in getting more from the vehicle.

Driving higher speed is what an ICE excells at, but not an EV. The reason for this is obvious, but I like to explain it so forgive if this is already something you know.

ICEs use most of the energy for heat production, so the shorter time you drive them, in some ways, the less fuel you use. (Hence why the higher MPG for highway over city) Most ICEs are less than 25% efficient at moving you down the road, and many use only about 15% of the fuel to move the vehicle. So when you are hypermiling in an ICE, you can only save fuel in that 15 - 25% area. A few more miles per gallon by going slower, as much as ten if the vehicle is aerodynamic. Heat however is free!

With the Leaf all power is used toward what you want. You want heat, it will deplete the battery. You want speed, you will deplete the battery. You want to go long distance? Slow down and gain some energy where you can. Coasting in N is what I call free miles. Where I live I can get a lot of those even at freeway speeds. Going uphill or high speeds will require high energy use, and if it is in the 40KW range, you only have 1/2 hour of driving. (20kwh usable energy in a fully charged Leaf)

So keep that in mind and play with the energy use screen. I tend to jackrabbit away from stops using 60KW to get the car rolling but for only a second or two (Equates to using 10kw for six or twelve seconds, but loses less to resistance). With that initial punch I can then usually go into N and coast to the next light. I can then regen if there is traffic, or put it back in D to give it another little push if needed. If you drive slow you might use less energy, but you also might not have the time to gain any since you are still getting up to speed by the next light.

New drivers tend to use a constant draw (or regen) on the battery, which is fine, but not for getting the most out of the available kinetic energy. You don't want to gain energy except when you need to really slow down a lot. Many times coasting will slow the vehicle to keep you in the traffic flow. ICE's don't slow the way the EV does, so they often use the brakes where you can just use Eco or D.

This is a very different vehicle that they made to operate like any other. That doesn't mean you can't drive it like an EV. Explore the side roads and take time to enjoy the travel, rather than just rush to the destination. You can add miles to the trip if the speeds are lower. You can actually double your range if you can do a constant 35.
 
madbrain said:
I think it has to do with the hill more than with the heat in this case.
Hills can use huge amounts of power. 25mph on a steep hill will draw about 20kw, so you could drive for only an hour, or 25 miles if that was a constant.

Many hills will consume 40kw to go 35mph or higher, so that cuts the drive time in half. Thankfully most hills are not going to last for a half hour. Gain more energy on the way down, so you have it to go back up.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
madbrain said:
Well, FYI, I had a flat recently. One tire had to be replaced on 12/11/2012. Hopefully, for the $157 that the Nissan dealer charged for the matching tire, they checked the tire pressure. Not sure about alignment.
I took original delivery on 10/20.

oh that did it. inflate your tires up to the listed sidewall maximum. there is no down side to this whatsoever other than supposed ride comfort. this will also insure maximum tire life.

i tried tires at both Nissan recommended (recommended for ride comfort ONLY) and the tire manufacturer (recommended to maintain MAXIMUM safety and MAXIMUM life) and that is cold tire pressure rating.

I looked at the "Distance traveled and energy economy" and I'm not seeing a significant difference between the days before the flat on 12/11 and after the flat. The average economy is in the low 3 miles/kWh before and after. So I don't think the tire pressure changed. You may be right that the dealer set it to the recommended for comfort, but they probably did that at the factory too when I took delivery on 10/20 .
0B1eSSO_7gwqeREhyVTlNVEFuRUU
 
Caracalover,

Caracalover said:
What I notice from the above is the lack of regenerated energy. You now drive a power plant, and utilizing that feature will aid you in getting more from the vehicle.

Driving higher speed is what an ICE excells at, but not an EV. The reason for this is obvious, but I like to explain it so forgive if this is already something you know.

ICEs use most of the energy for heat production, so the shorter time you drive them, in some ways, the less fuel you use. (Hence why the higher MPG for highway over city) Most ICEs are less than 25% efficient at moving you down the road, and many use only about 15% of the fuel to move the vehicle. So when you are hypermiling in an ICE, you can only save fuel in that 15 - 25% area. A few more miles per gallon by going slower, as much as ten if the vehicle is aerodynamic. Heat however is free!

With the Leaf all power is used toward what you want. You want heat, it will deplete the battery. You want speed, you will deplete the battery. You want to go long distance? Slow down and gain some energy where you can. Coasting in N is what I call free miles. Where I live I can get a lot of those even at freeway speeds. Going uphill or high speeds will require high energy use, and if it is in the 40KW range, you only have 1/2 hour of driving. (20kwh usable energy in a fully charged Leaf)

So keep that in mind and play with the energy use screen. I tend to jackrabbit away from stops using 60KW to get the car rolling but for only a second or two (Equates to using 10kw for six or twelve seconds, but loses less to resistance). With that initial punch I can then usually go into N and coast to the next light. I can then regen if there is traffic, or put it back in D to give it another little push if needed. If you drive slow you might use less energy, but you also might not have the time to gain any since you are still getting up to speed by the next light.

New drivers tend to use a constant draw (or regen) on the battery, which is fine, but not for getting the most out of the available kinetic energy. You don't want to gain energy except when you need to really slow down a lot. Many times coasting will slow the vehicle to keep you in the traffic flow. ICE's don't slow the way the EV does, so they often use the brakes where you can just use Eco or D.

This is a very different vehicle that they made to operate like any other. That doesn't mean you can't drive it like an EV. Explore the side roads and take time to enjoy the travel, rather than just rush to the destination. You can add miles to the trip if the speeds are lower. You can actually double your range if you can do a constant 35.


Thanks, but I'm not new to these concepts. As I said I drove a Prius before a Leaf and I have never driven a conventional ICE except for rental cars very short-term.

I am not applying much speed, definitely keeping within speed limits since I have the Leaf, believe me. Quite unlike the way I was driving with the Prius which was much more forgiving of high speeds.

The uphill speed is in the 15-25 mph range, not high speed. It's residential, and there are deers. No high speed possible.

Doing a constant 35 mph on city streets is not really possible due to traffic , traffic ligts, and/or stop signs .

In terms of regenerated energy , my total for December was as follows according to Carwings :

Total consumption : 241.8 kWh . Consumption : 280.2 kWh . Regenerated : 38.4 kWh . 783 miles. 3.2 miles/kWh .
So I'm regenerating 38.4 / 280.2 or 13.7% of the energy I am consuming. Or 49 Wh regenerated per mile driven.
 
madbrain said:
LEAFer said:
madbrain said:
Well, FYI, I had a flat recently. One tire had to be replaced on 12/11/2012. Hopefully, for the $157 that the Nissan dealer charged for the matching tire, they checked the tire pressure.
I suggest you get a tire pressure gauge and check all four tires on a regular basis. Inflate all four to 40psi (when "cold", i.e. not having driven the car in at least 6 hours).

I do have a tire gauge. I can check it cold at home easily. But I would have to drive somewhere to get air and inflate, if needed. At that point, the tires wouldn't be cold anymore.
You can always buy your own air pump. You can also check the pressure before, note how much you need to add, check again at the air pump and make a decent guestimate as to how much to add.

That's what I usually do as my cheapo air pumps at home are quite slow.
 
madbrain said:
Total consumption : 241.8 kWh . Consumption : 280.2 kWh . Regenerated : 38.4 kWh . 783 miles. 3.2 miles/kWh .
So I'm regenerating 38.4 / 280.2 or 13.7% of the energy I am consuming. Or 49 Wh regenerated per mile driven.
How do you typically brake? By applying the pedal?
 
cwerdna said:
madbrain said:
But I would have to drive somewhere to get air and inflate, if needed. At that point, the tires wouldn't be cold anymore.
You can always buy your own air pump. You can also check the pressure before, note how much you need to add, check again at the air pump and make a decent guestimate as to how much to add.

That's what I usually do as my cheapo air pumps at home are quite slow.
Laugh if you want, but I've used a bicycle pump; works quite well, and it's a little "excercise" depending on how low the pressure is ... and that was all before someone pointed out that the LEAF includes a 12V inflation pump !! ( Check out the hidden compartment on the left in the cargo area ;) )
 
LEAFer said:
cwerdna said:
madbrain said:
But I would have to drive somewhere to get air and inflate, if needed. At that point, the tires wouldn't be cold anymore.
You can always buy your own air pump. You can also check the pressure before, note how much you need to add, check again at the air pump and make a decent guestimate as to how much to add.

That's what I usually do as my cheapo air pumps at home are quite slow.
Laugh if you want, but I've used a bicycle pump; works quite well, and it's a little "excercise" depending on how low the pressure is ... and that was all before someone pointed out that the LEAF includes a 12V inflation pump !! ( Check out the hidden compartment on the left in the cargo area ;) )
Heh... LONG ago my parents and I used to use foot pumps to inflate car tires. Now that was slow and annoying. The foot pumps also weren't very durable. They'd eventually get bent/distorted to the side.

But yeah, gas station inflation hoses are WAY faster than my slow 12 volt powered pumps.
 
surfingslovak said:
madbrain said:
Total consumption : 241.8 kWh . Consumption : 280.2 kWh . Regenerated : 38.4 kWh . 783 miles. 3.2 miles/kWh .
So I'm regenerating 38.4 / 280.2 or 13.7% of the energy I am consuming. Or 49 Wh regenerated per mile driven.
How do you typically brake? By applying the pedal?

Typically I just coast and as I'm in ECO mode most of the time, that does the trick. I use the brake pedal also if I need to brake some more, or reduce speed more quickly.
 
madbrain said:
The car has this very annoying behavior when it switches from heat to A/C when you switch the defogger, I think it's when you switch it off. Sometimes I don't notice until the air is cold and I see the A/C light on. And I really don't like cold air. So if I have to start the trip with the defogger, I will leave it on.
I promise you that you will never get your mileage up until you break that defroster habit. Actually, I think you may have your A/C comment backward, though I must confess I still can't seem to really get my head around how the climate control system works. But the manual says this:
When the front defroster button is pushed, the air conditioner will automatically turn on to defog the windshield. The outside air circulation mode will be selected to improve the defogging performance.
All I know is that if I push the defrost button, the climate control graph on the Energy Usage display cranks up to 4.5kW and stays there, even if I am in ECO mode. Given that you can often drive with the motor usage at about 20kW, that alone can easily be a 15% to 20% hit on your mileage.

Ray
 
madbrain said:
In terms of regenerated energy , my total for December was as follows according to Carwings :

Total consumption : 241.8 kWh . Consumption : 280.2 kWh . Regenerated : 38.4 kWh . 783 miles. 3.2 miles/kWh .
So I'm regenerating 38.4 / 280.2 or 13.7% of the energy I am consuming. Or 49 Wh regenerated per mile driven.
Sounds like you are similar to me (although it's in the 20's here now and I pretty much have the heat blasting). 645 mi travelled, 2.7 mi/kWh, 241 kWh consumed, 48.8 hr travel time (13 mi/hr :lol: probably because lots of time spent looking at Christmas lights), 258 Wh/mi traction, 37 Wh/mi regen, 279Wh/mi accessories (heat).
Reddy
 
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