Winter Trip Report - Reality Check - How Am I Doing

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gmcjetpilot

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2017
Messages
133
This is a reality check for older 24KW LEAF owners and winter range. Feel free to comment.

Don't laugh it was only 40F, but that is cold for here. Expecting sub freezing temps soon.

100% charged 67 MI range on Guess-O-Meter. Summer is 75-80 mi 100% range typically.

2015 LEAF SV w/:10 bars 42,500 mi.

Drove from home and back, 27 mi, 45 mins driving time, 2 stops, 1/2 freeway, steering wheel & seat heat, cabin heat, for 1/3rd of trip. I have SV regen heater. Day time no headlights.

I ended up back home with 37 mi range and 47%. The GOM "Guess-O-Meter" range was 3 mi optimistic, drove 27 used GOM 30 miles.. If this was a one-way trip, I could return home, with nil reserve.

BATTERY TEMP 4 BARS

Reality check.
Summer I can do a 63 miles round trip ( no heaters, no freeway but sime 55 mph roads) and get home w/ 10-15 miles reserves.
.
Winter 54 miles round trip* Est with reserves.

* I try to not go below 18% or 12 miles. In 6 yrs of ownership (3 yo when purchased) I got to reduced performance mode, once.

How did I do? Got all my errands done. Love to have a fresh 40KW battery but not enough to pay $14K.

Lucy (yes I named my LEAF, ha ha) is still doing the job. I can see in the next few years, winter range may be iffy.
 
I have no idea what a 'regen heater' might be.
Do you mean a heat pump ?

Stories that rely on GOM readings only annoy LEAF owners that know better, and dearly confuse newbies. If you calculated (or monitored) your miles/kWh for the trip it would be informative.

You are on the right track in mentioning cabin heater usage -- that is a huge variable. Our Chevy Bolt does that part well, by making it easy to calculate the energy spent on cabin conditioning. Irony there, since the Bolt is an inefficient winter car. Good for GM on being transparent.

As usual with things EV, our Tesla Model Y 2023 is ahead of the curve. When I know that there is ice on the windshield, I start window defrost (along with seat and wheel heating) from my phone a couple of minutes before I walk outside -- enough to scrape off the ice that is now not glued to the glass. Then I drive with 'defog' (a lower consumption humidity removing mode of the heat pump), seat heating and steering wheel heating. This keeps me reasonably comfortable for short drives in the city in temps down to ~ 25F. I end up consuming about 275 Wh/mile (about 3.6 miles/kWh) through the winter.

The triad of a good heat pump, steering wheel and seat heaters is a pretty good winter efficiency approach. EV manufacturers that do not at least include seat heating as a standard amenity are clueless (that would include Nissan and GM by the way, that try to force people into higher trim cars to get winter devices.)
 
I have no idea what a 'regen heater' might be.
Do you mean a heat pump ?

Stories that rely on GOM readings only annoy LEAF owners that know better, and dearly confuse newbies. If you calculated (or monitored) your miles/kWh for the trip it would be informative.

You are on the right track in mentioning cabin heater usage -- that is a huge variable. Our Chevy Bolt does that part well, by making it easy to calculate the energy spent on cabin conditioning. Irony there, since the Bolt is an inefficient winter car. Good for GM on being transparent.

As usual with things EV, our Tesla Model Y 2023 is ahead of the curve. When I know that there is ice on the windshield, I start window defrost (along with seat and wheel heating) from my phone a couple of minutes before I walk outside -- enough to scrape off the ice that is now not glued to the glass. Then I drive with 'defog' (a lower consumption humidity removing mode of the heat pump), seat heating and steering wheel heating. This keeps me reasonably comfortable for short drives in the city in temps down to ~ 25F. I end up consuming about 275 Wh/mile (about 3.6 miles/kWh) through the winter.

The triad of a good heat pump, steering wheel and seat heaters is a pretty good winter efficiency approach. EV manufacturers that do not at least include seat heating as a standard amenity are clueless (that would include Nissan and GM by the way, that try to force people into higher trim cars to get winter devices.

Yes hyrbrid heat pump. You know what I mean. Don't patronize me. I know more about EV's than newbies like you. I call t heat REcovery GENration system.... or REGEN Heat. Sorry my terminology to confused you,

I have all the bells and whistles, LED headlights, Hyrbid heater, Nav and DEAD Nissan-Connect EV app (formerly called Car-Wings), NAV $180 for an updated.... Garmin with lifetime updates is far superior.

What I also have is 24Kw battery which is likely about 19Kw. I get 4.8 miles per KW. There is nothing wrong with that. The SMALL battery pack and battery capacity loss due to heat is the issue... very simple.

I am not a newbie, I have a masters in engineering, EV owner for 7 years. I know how the LEAF works, how range meter derives range, factors that affect range (like driving style, temperature, battery degradation). I know all about other manufactures EV technology. THEY GET RANGE WITH BIG BATTERY PACKS... They get battery life with liquid cooling. Apparently you never heard of the ARIYA? That is typical of newbies.... ha ha.

Do you own and drive a LEAF? If not you can't answer my question.

PS: To your other off point comments, TESLA or others being FAR AHEAD.... It really boils down to one thing, Nissans passive air cooling of the battery pack, not forced liquid heat exchanger. That is it. Nissan made it to a price point. Nissan is not a luxury brand. The "technology" of liquid battery cooling is not difficult or advanced, nor did Tesla invent it. Nissan just did not do it on the LEAF.

Also Nissan put in small packs, which frankly makes sense for most people, IF IT MAINTAINED THAT CAPACITY. If my 9 yo LEAF had full 24KW I would be great. About 110 mile range (based on 4.6 miles/Kw). In total, the average U.S. driver only covers about 37 miles per day. Nissan did not lack technology or engineering. They made intentional choices. However newbies get confused over this.

2023 Nissan ARIYA: All-New Electric Crossover has s liquid-cooled thermal management system means better performance in hot and cold weather, plus more battery protection when using fast chargers. It is far ahead. Sorry Tesla Fan boys. Tesla has a LOT of issues.... A LOT... You newbies driving Tecla's will find out eventually.

Tesla's one advantage up to now is their proprietary battery charging network. Great. Now Tesla will be opening up their chargers to everyone. Ha ha. I can't wait for Tesla drivers to whine about this, when all the Ford, GM, Rivian, Volvo, Polestar, Mercedes, Nissan, Honda, Jaguar, Hyundai, Genesis, Kia, BMW, Mini, Rolls-Royce, Toyota, Lexus, Subaru, Lucid, VW, Audi, and Porsche's are blocking the chargers... Ha ha. Really pisses me off when a Tesla is at the Nissan dealer charging.

I know a guy just got a Tesla Y, snob, brand new EV driver, thinks he is an expert. Must be a Tesla thing. Hummm. He virtue signals, thinks he is saving the planet. I correct him with facts, data, observation, mathematics, and he literally runs away with mass cognitive dissonance..... Ha ha. He also is an expert in EV's....

I am NOT bashing Tesla, I will NEVER buy a Tesla, unless I get it chap. Tesla has a lot of other issues, A LOT, including battery packs.... In general EV's have a lot of issues..... I am not an ideolog, I am an Engineer and Pilot. Finally the manufactures are growing a pair and standing up to authoritarian ideologs and activist full of emotion and propaganda, with little information or common sense. I also will not buy a Tesla because Tesla drivers by and large are annoying as ****.
 
I never worry about daily use under 50 miles even at 3 bars lost and almost 84K miles. I use the seat/steering wheel heater and limited heat pump as needed. Very reliable trouble free cars. I swap with my wife for the 22 S+ when I need a bunch of range and we love the S+ for medium road trips that can be done in 1 QC to destination.
 
What I also have is 24Kw battery which is likely about 19Kw. I get 4.8 miles per KW. There is nothing wrong with that. The SMALL battery pack and battery capacity loss due to heat is the issue... very simple.

I am not a newbie, I have a masters in engineering, EV owner for 7 years. I know how the LEAF works, how range meter derives range, factors that affect range (like driving style, temperature, battery degradation). I know all about other manufactures EV technology.


I do not have any engineering credentials, but I know the difference between a kW and a kWh, and I know that a heat pump is not a regenerative gas heater.

Perhaps your school is offering a refund ?
 
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I do not have any engineering credentials, but I know the difference between a kW and a kWh, and I know that a heat pump is not a regenerative gas heater.

Perhaps your school is offering a refund ?
You are being petulant and pedantic. Go away troll. Good grief. Typo got me. Good 👍

PS That is schools, undergrad and Grad school w/ honors, plus FAA Airline Pilot and Instructor certificates. You are smart typo Police 😜 .
 
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I am being precise, which is a hallmark of a scientist and typically also of engineers. I can no more confuse power with energy, than I can confuse cats with dogs. Your inability and/or unwillingness to make this simple distinction leaves me ... skeptical ... of your competency and self-declared credentials. And your LEAF related posts are those of a newb who does not understand the basics.

Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I hope to be proven wrong.
 
I do not have any engineering credentials, but I know the difference between a kW and a kWh, and I know that a heat pump is not a regenerative gas heater.

Perhaps your school is offering a refund ?
I’m a former astronaut :)) and I say Leafs are great. We’ve had 2 for the last 10 years and we’ve loved them. BUT Nissan is buying back our 2017 leaf for what we paid for it new so we took that money and the 7500 tax credit and we bought a Tesla model y long range. It’s a whole different thing than a leaf. More expensive and longer range with a great charging network. It’s a semi-luxury car. I say “semi” because it’s not like a Mercedes or BMW or even a Lexus. I describe it as driving a base model spaceship. But leaf and Lexus are two different beasts.
 
I am being precise, which is a hallmark of a scientist and typically also of engineers. I can no more confuse power with energy, than I can confuse cats with dogs. Your inability and/or unwillingness to make this simple distinction leaves me ... skeptical ... of your competency and self-declared credentials. And your LEAF related posts are those of a newb who does not understand the basics.

Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I hope to be proven wrong.
Engineer, Pilot & made a typo. Get over It. The comments bashing me saying I was an Enginneris pathetic trolling, as you are, is pathetic. Shame. Grow up. You are projecting your insecurities and ignorance. No offense my friends. I'll put my education and professional bona fides against yours. I JUST ASKED HOW YOUR LEAF's WINTER PERFORMANCE WAS. I wanted DATA not HELP or insults. For gosh sakes!!!!! Why did you post, to just make it personal, spew ad hominems, piling on. You are calling me a liar? Shut up. I know math, physics or science, and more. So there. Ha ha.

How about i slander you, make up things about you, for example;

i have grave doubts of your mental health and your low IQ for posting what clearly is an antagonizing attack for no logical reason, and your truthfulness is suspect.

How do you like that? Ha ha. Good grief. People say whatever without thought. That is what you are doing, innuendos disparaging my character. What is wrong with you and others in the peanut gallery. I know what has you boys triggered or you are drunk. So let's compare CV's, since that is now the topic.

I graduated from LSU with honors BSME and financed 100% of my education working part time as a waiter, while on the Dean's list. Then worked for Boeing in structures engineering (stress engineer, ultimate, fatigue, crack growth design, testing, certification manufacturing, field support) for 10 years, being promotetd to senior lead engineer after 5 yrs (one of the youngest leads at the time) with 13 engineers under me. My team certified B767, 747-400 and B777 wing, flight controls, landing gear structure, fuselage, empennage, including the B777 composite tail. Traveled world wide providing on-site field support for repairs and Mods in support of Boeing Customers. I'm very precise.

While at Boeing in my spare time the first two years, I earned my MSME at U Washington. Concurrently while at Boeing over 8 years, I flew general aviation. I earned my private pilot, instrument, commercial, flight instructor, instrument instructor, multi engine commercial, multi engine instructor and finally ATP turbojet rating. I did flight instruction, Part 135 charters and Corporate part time flying out of KBFI. I left full time engineering to fly for the airlines domestically and internationally off an on to present. I flew to middle east charters post 911 with troops and military dependants. Because of 911 and 2008 econ bust, found my self unemployed after airlines folded. I did consulting, for Boeing, British Aerospace, Airbus, Pratt & Whitney, Lockheed and Airlines in-between flying. JSF/F35, SDI, C17 are a couple of projects. I have 38 years and counting in 2 careers. I'm very precise, but I make mistakes, not perfect like you.

Fortunately i landed at another major airline 12 yrs ago where I will hang it up at 65 God willing. Have a few yrs. I'm type Captain rated on CE500, B737, B757, B767. I still consult as a contract Engineer on occasion, and I'm an active lifetime member of Experimental Aircraft Association. I flight instruct and have two instrument students currently. I built two Experimental kit planes (215 mph aerobatic) one of which I fly today. My first plane I built, RV-4, won workmanship award at a large Aviation event. I'm an amateur radio operator with well equipped electronic lab, restore electronics, tube to surface mount amps, radios. I don’t need anyone to HELP me know what KW and KWH is. Thanks.

Go ahead and troll me. Make stuff up, find more typos, insult me, make fun of a man's life's work and passion, because of a typo and the sin, saying “Engineer”. That really riles up the mob.

You are insecure and jealous, when you hear "Engineer". People HATE engineers because they have NO CLUE what is involved. You think 1+1=chair. Ha ha. How am I doing slandering you? I got more. Is this where I call you a liar?

Besides advanced mathematics, physics, science, Engineers use logic, problem solving, management, economics, manufacturing, safety, and technical publications. It is all encompassing and diverse, so you don't get it. You can't comprehend but latch onto a typo. You don't respect Engineering out of ignorance. At the core of engineering (Civil, Mechanical, Electrictical, Aerospace....) is technical competence and character, ethics. Don’t you ever question my character again.

My post on a forum is not a doctorial thesis. Get over the typos. I owe you nothing
, You don’t know me. I could give two pots of piss what you think. Got it? You owe me an apology. Stop wasting time. If you can't stay on topic step away from the keyboard.

You have what an art history degree in basket weaving? Ha ha. Nothing wrong with that if you need a basket, but everything in modern life from space travel, to medical tech, electronics, roads, bridges, skyscrapers, ships, airplanes and yes EV's was created by Engineers. People who hate engineers don’t have the education, skill, experience abilities to be an Engineer. They are not capable. Like I can't weave a basket like you. It is not an easy degree. It's intense and requires attention to details an precision. Ppl make mistakes, and this is so minor, you bringing up the snide comments, injecting yourself, instigating, makes YOU wrong and likley a bad person who may abuse small animals... Ha ha. Kidding. See I can just say any irresponsible thing like you.

However I admit lack of precision with a tiny smart phone keyboard. SUE ME... . Precision is not required or possible with man sized hands. So you smart guys with hands like a 13 year old girl that can type on smart phones and never make a typo, are awsome. Small hands cough but awsome You are perfect? Narcissistic much? I can make inuendos against you. You don't like it?

So if you don’t have a technical degree or Winter LEAF data no need to reply

I speak for all the Engineers in the World. I say you are welcome for everything (except baskets and liberal arts, that is on you, thanks). Oh BTW I have a PE license. Never used it, working in Aerospace. PE ( Professional Engineer) requires two exams, one 5 hrs and one 8 hours. Think of it like the bar exam gor lawyers. Most states require a PE Cert to sign off buildings, bridged, public works. I took both exams. They cover everything from fluids, thermodynamics, structures, AC and DC circuits, metallurgy. economics... on and on. So next time you chuckle jokesters want to mock engineers remember they're smarter than you. Ha ha. Kidding no one is smarter than you.

You want a flame war? I will pick through your posts and accuse you of all kinds of things, poor morals, dishonesty, punctuation, capitulation, syntax, like a fire breathing dragon in an asbestos flame proof suit. You will get burned. Is that the game childern? How old are you all? I mean mentally?

I have heard every Engineering hating comment for the better part of 3 decades. Yawn. It really brings out the trolls. My careers (two) over 38 yrs has been mostly airline pilot last 13 years, but still proud of the education and great things I did and still do as an engineer.

However in no way am I AS PROUD AS Tesla drivers who deserve an award for buying a freaking car. They prevent SMOG but spread SMUG. They lurk on the Nissan LEAF forum and virtue signal, humble brag, and call people newbies…. Ha ha. Brovo. They are hero's. Not like dumb typo prone Engineers with all that math, physics, science, improving the quality of life of everyone in the World. Dumb Engineers. Ha ha.

I have other things to do but a bunch of keyboard cowards insulting me for no reason will not stand. Stop it. I guarantee you would not say this crap to me, face to face. I don't like it and won't put up your passive aggressive shiznet. Stop while you are ahead.

If anyone has some winter data for your 24 kWh or 40 kWh LEAF, please post. Sorry I don't give a rip about your Tesla which i'm sure you're very proud of. Good for you... so virtuous and smart. For gosh sakes. Oh no. Did I put the "h" in kWh? Better not leave off hour from kWh... Ha ha. If you trolls say it is KWh or KWH I will find a way to transcendentally reach through a portal in an alternative space time continuum to dope slap you bunch of @#$%*&% arrogant snob Tesla drivers. Ha ha. I'm kidding. I only time travel for special occasions. No worries, you be you, petulant pedantic selves. Ha ha…. Oh my, sorry I could not resist. Just kidding.

I pick on Testicle. err typo, Tesla drivers on Nissan LEAF forum. I think you are all as great and super smart as you think you are, for buying an over priced Tesla with dubious proprietary business and maintenance practices. Genius move for Tesla really. Good for consumers, not so much. P. T. Barnum, " ...sucker born every minute.”

Tesla is lowering prices on new Tesla’s because they can’t unload them, which does wonders for your already lower resale. If not for $7,500 incentives from Tax payets EV sales would dive more. I can't wait for Tesla chargers to be fair game for all EV makes.... Wahahaha. I'm just going to park and not charge. Tesla drivers go to Nissan dealers for free charging. They deserve it. Kidding. But don't piss me off. Ha ha.

BTW. Data (that I originally asked for, yet no one can read and follow instructions) is part of the scientific process: observations, DATA, repeatable experiments and mathematics. Also they are just cars, transportation, A to B, not a religion. Pull the stick out your charge port and relax. I did not ASK TO BE HELPED as someone brilliantly said above. I wanted DATA…

I just wanted data not a bunch of whining virtue signaling "help" and Tesla bragging. Sorry.

PS post your CV so I can mock your JOB. I'm good at it 👍
 
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GMCjetpilot, trolls crave attention, so writing a long response to one is perhaps not the best way to go, here. The user filter works well for me. Just click "Ignore"...
 
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My first winter with our S+ I was able to drive 180 miles at 70mph in 7F. No heat of course. Arrived with dashes, but mission successful. Not sure I would try that with the cars nearing the 5 year mark.
 
GMCjetpilot, trolls crave attention, so writing a long response to one is perhaps not the best way to go, here. The user filter works well for me. Just click "Add Foe"...
Was it changed to ignore? I think that's what the new forum software calls it? Thanks for pointing it out though, glad the new software supports the same feature as this topic was a good reason to have it. :cool:
 
Maybe the GOM has some slop, although I find on my 2022 that's it what I expect. I think the kWh it calculates from is correct. Summer I average 4 mi/kWh and at 100% I'm told 240 (I'm at 95% SOH). Winter I'm around 3.5 mi/kWh and at 100% I'm told 205. Both accurate I think. I don't drive to 0% but when I charge I've driven what I expected. Is winter drop off of 10-15% about par? If I averaged 3.0 mi/kWh I expect a 25% proportional drop.
 
My memory is the heat pump is only a big deal if the car is left overnight outside (not in a garage) at which point it can be a big deal. It’s just way more efficient than heat tape.

The one that shocked me is how much cold weather shortens range. You can actually tell how cold it was the night before by what your battery meter is in the morning. I’ve got the “small” battery which was 145 in the summer, but 101 in the depths of winter. Getting about 118 atm. This is why an 80mi car just can’t cut it. It’s not going to be 80 all year round
 
This is a reality check for older 24KW LEAF owners and winter range. Feel free to comment.

Don't laugh it was only 40F, but that is cold for here. Expecting sub freezing temps soon.

100% charged 67 MI range on Guess-O-Meter. Summer is 75-80 mi 100% range typically.

2015 LEAF SV w/:10 bars 42,500 mi.

Drove from home and back, 27 mi, 45 mins driving time, 2 stops, 1/2 freeway, steering wheel & seat heat, cabin heat, for 1/3rd of trip. I have SV regen heater. Day time no headlights.

I ended up back home with 37 mi range and 47%. The GOM "Guess-O-Meter" range was 3 mi optimistic, drove 27 used GOM 30 miles.. If this was a one-way trip, I could return home, with nil reserve.

BATTERY TEMP 4 BARS

Reality check.
Summer I can do a 63 miles round trip ( no heaters, no freeway but sime 55 mph roads) and get home w/ 10-15 miles reserves.
.
Winter 54 miles round trip* Est with reserves.

* I try to not go below 18% or 12 miles. In 6 yrs of ownership (3 yo when purchased) I got to reduced performance mode, once.

How did I do? Got all my errands done. Love to have a fresh 40KW battery but not enough to pay $14K.

Lucy (yes I named my LEAF, ha ha) is still doing the job. I can see in the next few years, winter range may be iffy.
I can’t get by with less than 80 winter. Right now I got about 100
 
My memory is the heat pump is only a big deal if the car is left overnight outside (not in a garage) at which point it can be a big deal. It’s just way more efficient than heat tape.

The one that shocked me is how much cold weather shortens range. You can actually tell how cold it was the night before by what your battery meter is in the morning. I’ve got the “small” battery which was 145 in the summer, but 101 in the depths of winter. Getting about 118 atm. This is why an 80mi car just can’t cut it. It’s not going to be 80 all year round
In the winter my car drops from 140some to about 100, so a bit less than 50% so I would think a car that did 80 in the summer would do 60 in the winter.
 
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