Cutting it close too often. Merry Xmas !

[surfingslovak]

It would be flat driving, though. I will check it out.

I know FalconFour charged there on the way to Fresno couple of times. Last chance to get some electrons before the big hill. I found that it really helps to go slow, and coast a lot when running low. Driving on flats absolutely helps extend your range, when you are in a bind. Waiting for roadside assistance on busy or rainy evenings is no fun at all.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Owning a Prius, I'm guessing you have mastered what my wife calls "playing the game", you know, drive the car like you are riding a bike. Coast when you can, use the brakes lightly and other tricks to squeeze more MPG out of the Prius. Same tricks get you further down the road in the Leaf.

Yes, in fact my first car ever was a 2001 Prius. I know all the tricks about coasting and downhill and brake usage with the Prius.

When I moved to the hilly area 2 years ago with the 26 mile daily commute that includes 18 miles of freeway, I ended getting higher average MPG with my 2007 Prius than I did previously in my 8 mile commute on flat city streets. And that was driving mostly 70-75 mph on the freeway, not 65 that I drive with the Leaf now. The Prius average mileage really wasn't affected that much by the last half mile stretch. My Prius always got better mileage on freeways than city streets somehow, quite contrary to what the EPA says.

Unfortunately, it just seems to me that all these tricks just don't work with my Leaf.

common characteristic that is frequently due to location, traffic conditions and route. but if you "never" get better mileage in the city, then that does not bode well for you in a LEAF because all things being equal, you should. It is much harder to do and requires a lot of concentration, anticipation and dedication to get good numbers.

 

[planet4ever]

Again, the chart is SPECIFICALLY notated that it does NOT use CarWings or GOM data. Certainly, you're welcome to use any data you want, but I guarantee that there won't be accurate information when you are doing exactly what is stated not to do.

What makes you think Carwings is reporting improper economy ?
GOM I understand as it's a predictive number about future driving.
But Carwings records data on actual driving. So why would it be inaccurate ?

Tony and I have been on this board for a long time (relative to the lifetime of the board), and we are both distrustful of Carwings date. In the beginning it was definitely wrong, and nowhere close to what the car itself reported. I understand there have been fixes; perhaps to the way the LEAF transmits data to Carwings, and perhaps to the website logic. A number of members now believe it to be accurate, but I hope you will forgive those of us who want to see numbers as close to the source as possible. (And, as edatoakrun is fond of pointing out, even the dashboard may not be close enough.)

Ray

 

[madbrain]

common characteristic that is frequently due to location, traffic conditions and route. but if you "never" get better mileage in the city, then that does not bode well for you in a LEAF because all things being equal, you should. It is much harder to do and requires a lot of concentration, anticipation and dedication to get good numbers.

Well, my lifetime average with my 2001 Prius was about 43 MPG. With my 2007 Prius about the same as long as I lived in the flat area.
When I moved uphill, lifetime MPG increased to about 45 - 46 MPG.

What I noticed was that Prius had very different characteristics with mileage. Short trips got much worse mileage in the first 5-10 minutes due to the emissions control, regardless of driving conditions. After 10 minutes, the MPG always improved. As it happened, I always lived 10 minutes from the nearest freeway. And my short trips to work didn't involve freeway. Any longer trips involved freeway and got better mileage.
None of this emissions control stuff applies to the Leaf, of course.

I do notice better instantaneous m/kWh with the Leaf on city streets than freeway. But averages are still poor.
I'm consistently in the bottom on carwings ranking. I am at 9581 regional ranking right now.

 

[madbrain]

Ray,

Again, the chart is SPECIFICALLY notated that it does NOT use CarWings or GOM data. Certainly, you're welcome to use any data you want, but I guarantee that there won't be accurate information when you are doing exactly what is stated not to do.

What makes you think Carwings is reporting improper economy ?
GOM I understand as it's a predictive number about future driving.
But Carwings records data on actual driving. So why would it be inaccurate ?

Tony and I have been on this board for a long time (relative to the lifetime of the board), and we are both distrustful of Carwings date. In the beginning it was definitely wrong, and nowhere close to what the car itself reported. I understand there have been fixes; perhaps to the way the LEAF transmits data to Carwings, and perhaps to the website logic. A number of members now believe it to be accurate, but I hope you will forgive those of us who want to see numbers as close to the source as possible. (And, as edatoakrun is fond of pointing out, even the dashboard may not be close enough.)

Ray

OK, that's fair enough.

I reset all my dash counters tonight on my way home from work after full charge.
Total trip 13.4 miles. With the heat and defogger on, and not exceeding 65 mph on the 9 miles of freeway, the dash ended with 2.7 miles/kWh average economy. The Leaf used 3 out of the 12 fuel bars as usual.

I just put my kill-a-watt on the EVSE, so we will see how many kWh it recharges.
We are taking the Prius to dinner in Menlo Park.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

personally i think that this has been a very long conversation on something that quite simply did not happen.

i really think the real issue here is not how to stretch the mileage. I think you have a handle on that. I think its the perception that unless one pulls into the garage with "xx" miles...no wait... unless one pulls into the garage with "XX" miles left on the GOM, they are in some sort of danger. where does that perception come from? do we ever go to the gas station nearing empty and not get gas?

I wish I could give you better stats but not as easy as I thought it would be to find out but there are literally hundreds of people that run of GASOLINE every day. granted, much more of them out there but they only run that risk every 4-5 days or so. we run into it once sometimes twice a day so our currently small #'s are adding up fast.

Now, I do know some people mostly in the mountains who fill up their gas tank when its down to 3/8th of a tank in winter due to snow storm issues but Me? well in 8+ years and 3 (probably soon to be 4) Priuses, I almost always got gas with no more than 2 bars and probably 80% of the time, got gas at least 40 miles past the "blinking bar" so what the diff? is it any less risk? or is it a risk at all if you know the vehicle you are driving?

lets examine the facts. on the trip in question, you did a few unplanned errands and STILL made it. waaaay back in post 2 or 3 or whatever one it was, I asked "so what is the problem?" and still waiting for an answer.

** note** your 2.7 miles /kwh is a bit too low. you need to get your tire pressures up or your alignment checked. FYI; now getting reports of 3rd LEAFer who may have received car from the factory out of alignment

 

[DaveEV]

I reset all my dash counters tonight on my way home from work after full charge.
Total trip 13.4 miles. With the heat and defogger on, and not exceeding 65 mph on the 9 miles of freeway, the dash ended with 2.7 miles/kWh average economy. The Leaf used 3 out of the 12 fuel bars as usual.

I just put my kill-a-watt on the EVSE, so we will see how many kWh it recharges.

Should be around 6 kWh.

Is this the only driving you've done today? Perhaps you could post some the data that Carwings shows for a representative, specifically the section "My Driving Style". A week's worth of driving (see the Past Records) would be useful.

I am curious to see what it reports. Abnormally high traction motor numbers will indicate either a driving style or mechanical issue (alignment, dragging brakes, etc) issue. Abnormally high accessory numbers will indicate that the low efficiency numbers are due to heater/defroster use.

For my typical numbers are 280-350 Wh/mi for the traction motor, 50-150 Wh/mi for regenerative braking and 10-50 Wh/mi for accessories (which includes HVAC). This is across a mix of surface street commuting and freeway driving around 65 mph. My normal mi/kWh numbers are 3.8-4.2 mi/kWh on the freeway at 65 mph and 4.2-4.8 mi/kWh for my surface street commuting (speed limits of 35-55 mph).

 

[planet4ever]

I reset all my dash counters tonight on my way home from work after full charge.
Total trip 13.4 miles. With the heat and defogger on, and not exceeding 65 mph on the 9 miles of freeway, the dash ended with 2.7 miles/kWh average economy. The Leaf used 3 out of the 12 fuel bars as usual.

I can believe that. Now try this, if you can spare an hour some time midday tomorrow:

• Bundle up and drive to 680, start "south" (really west) on it.
• Stay in the right lane at 55mph.
  • That should be no problem midday Jan 1.
• Reset m/kWh and trip odometer; turn off climate control.
  • It should be sunny with temperature in the high 50's.
  • I wouldn't expect windshield fogging to be a problem, but if it is, set a) mode to foot/windshield, b) outside air, c) climate control off.
• Staying at 55 in cruise control, take 680 and 280 to, say, Wolfe Road; turn around and drive back.
• Note m/kWh and trip mileage when you exit the freeway.

If Tony's numbers are anywhere close to right your m/kWh should be greater than 4. If it isn't, then I suspect something must be wrong with your car.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that you should drive this way every day. This is just a test.

Ray

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

resetting your miles/kwh meter is a good idea. to facilitate a random guess on what my LEAF is doing with my juice bill, I reset it and trip meter every day and track it in a spreadsheet. it does make for some interesting days. Last Feb, I noticed that my performance was very much over my norm for a winter day to the point I decided to see how far i could go and that is when i did my 100.1 day.

I was in the 5.7-5.8 miles/kwh range after 40 miles and it was due to a combination of perfect driving. temps were in upper 30's and low 40's but it was clear, very sunny and low humidity which basically made it feel much warmer than normal.

another reason for it is it gives you a baseline on what you can expect. now, every day is different but if you have records of drives daily eventually you will start knowing what to expect and when it does not happen, then its time to start checking your tires, etc because the trip you describe is nearly identical to one i did today and temps here were in the low 30's (actually 28º)

now, normally i dont do heat or as little as i can get away with but SO wrecked Prius so we are down to one car for now so she gives me ride in morning and when she picked me up she has heat blasting (all the time!) so we jump on freeway while its snowing (wet roads also reduces performance) stop off, do sushi, then go to Walgreens, pick up prescription for Son who has swollen lymph glans and go home.

get there, I am at 32 miles and 3.2 miles/ kwh. only thing different is speed. I keep it at 60 or less. one caveat. if she had not done any driving and I had driven same route, I would have parked it at near 4 miles/kwh

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's hilly in and around San Diego too, but the climate is likely a bit more temperate (in both directions). Sounds like in your case, the availability of a reliable quick charger in South Bay would help?

I drove the Rav4 in snow last night. It was 200 miles from San Diego to Ocotillo Wells (near sea level) and return, crossing one pass at 3600 feet elevation on the way there. I drove the Rav4 about 5 miles off the road for our base camp. We ran the electric powered Baja Racer on some 20 mile loops until the transmission blew a seal.

Then, I grabbed some 50 amp service at the local desert RV park, and drove back over the 4000 foot pass (all elevation gain within about 25 miles) through Julian in a snow storm, at night. I didn't have any chains, so I was worried that the road would get closed down to me. The Rav4 handled it well with its stock all season tires.

Fantastic car.

 

[madbrain]

Dave,

personally i think that this has been a very long conversation on something that quite simply did not happen.
i really think the real issue here is not how to stretch the mileage. I think you have a handle on that. I think its the perception that unless one pulls into the garage with "xx" miles...no wait... unless one pulls into the garage with "XX" miles left on the GOM, they are in some sort of danger. where does that perception come from?

I didn't bring up the GOM except to mention that the car stated ---, and I had VLWB. I don't think that's simply a perception that there is a problem. I wouldn't be posting if I wasn't getting this.
You don't t think VLBW and no miles on the dash is an issue worth worrying about ?
It was determined in this thread that I had about than 5% left at the end. And I may not have made it home at all if not for my partner being late and the extra hour of L1.

do we ever go to the gas station nearing empty and not get gas?
I wish I could give you better stats but not as easy as I thought it would be to find out but there are literally hundreds of people that run of GASOLINE every day. granted, much more of them out there but they only run that risk every 4-5 days or so. we run into it once sometimes twice a day so our currently small #'s are adding up fast.
Now, I do know some people mostly in the mountains who fill up their gas tank when its down to 3/8th of a tank in winter due to snow storm issues but Me? well in 8+ years and 3 (probably soon to be 4) Priuses, I almost always got gas with no more than 2 bars and probably 80% of the time, got gas at least 40 miles past the "blinking bar" so what the diff? is it any less risk? or is it a risk at all if you know the vehicle you are driving?

Honestly, it has never happened to me in my lifetime. But I have always driven Prius before the Leaf. And the range on a full tank o a Prius is a comfortable 450 - 500 miles without even really trying. Refueling takes 5 minutes. Gas stations are almost everywhere. One would have to completely ignore all instrumentation to run out of gas on such a car. Or do so intentionally.
If there were any gasoline cars with a 73 mile EPA range on a full tank of gas, then we might have valid comparisons. I don't wish to derail the thread. I don't mean to compare the Leaf to a gasoline car.

lets examine the facts. on the trip in question, you did a few unplanned errands and STILL made it.

Actually, I did only one unplanned errand, the extra trip to the theater.

waaaay back in post 2 or 3 or whatever one it was, I asked "so what is the problem?" and still waiting for an answer.

Sorry, but I must have missed that. The problem is that I have had to try really hard and I'm still not coming close to the stated EPA range of the car.
Put it another way : when I got the car, I expected to be able to get 73 miles under average driving conditions with a new car with full battery.
But the real range, when driving with the flow of traffic on the freeway, and with the heat to avoid freezing, is really much lower than that, and that's quite a shocker.

** note** your 2.7 miles /kwh is a bit too low. you need to get your tire pressures up or your alignment checked. FYI; now getting reports of 3rd LEAFer who may have received car from the factory out of alignment

Well, FYI, I had a flat recently. One tire had to be replaced on 12/11/2012. Hopefully, for the $157 that the Nissan dealer charged for the matching tire, they checked the tire pressure. Not sure about alignment.
I took original delivery on 10/20.

I doubt it has anything to do with alignment, though. On the downhill commute to work during the daytime, when heat is typically not needed, I get miles/kWh that are in line with expectations.
Calling it downhill is a bit of a stretch, there is really only 0.5 mile of steep downhill, the rest is mostly flat. It mostly means the first half mile uses almost no energy, but after that it's flat.
On the return, things are much different.

As I previously mentioned in this thread, I have carwings data for 12/6 which has just that one-way trip to work (because I came back from work past night, on 12/7). It shows one trip, 12.9 miles, 4.2 miles/kWh. I would think that mileage is within normal expectations for a trip that includes 9 miles of freeway at max 65mph, and 3 miles of city streets. Tony's chart states 3.6 miles/kWh for 65mph. So, I wouldn't suspect that there is something wrong with my car in particular. I think the impact of heat and hills are underestimated in the range chart's footnotes. I am not sure what if anything the EPA does in its mileage tests to account for those factors.

 

[madbrain]

I reset all my dash counters tonight on my way home from work after full charge.
Total trip 13.4 miles. With the heat and defogger on, and not exceeding 65 mph on the 9 miles of freeway, the dash ended with 2.7 miles/kWh average economy. The Leaf used 3 out of the 12 fuel bars as usual.

I just put my kill-a-watt on the EVSE, so we will see how many kWh it recharges.

Should be around 6 kWh.

Unfortunately, I forgot to reset the KWh counter on the Kill-a-watt. So I will have to try again another day. This was a typical return commute back home with the 3 fuel bars of usage from full charge.
And as I have said before, it used to take only 2 fuel bars in october and november without heat.

Is this the only driving you've done today? Perhaps you could post some the data that Carwings shows for a representative, specifically the section "My Driving Style". A week's worth of driving (see the Past Records) would be useful.

No, it wasn't all the driving. For one thing, I went to work first before I came back from it. And that involved no uphill and no heat. So carwings will have a bit more data. I also stopped on the way to work sign up for a gym membership. Right now, Carwings is showing those first 2 trips only, since the car has been parked after I got home from work. The return trip won't be uploaded to Carwings until the next time I drive the Leaf.

The stats for Dec 31 right now, without the return trip, are 15.4 miles and 4.1 miles/kWh . This was with no heat. Fairly similar to the 4.2 miles/kWh on 12/6 day that had only the one trip to work.
So, if I believe Carwings and the dash for yesterday, my economy was 4.1 miles/kWh going to work with no heat and a bit of downhill, and 2.7 miles/kWh coming back from work with heat, defogger, and a bit of uphill.
That's a quite a difference.

I am curious to see what it reports. Abnormally high traction motor numbers will indicate either a driving style or mechanical issue (alignment, dragging brakes, etc) issue. Abnormally high accessory numbers will indicate that the low efficiency numbers are due to heater/defroster use.

For my typical numbers are 280-350 Wh/mi for the traction motor, 50-150 Wh/mi for regenerative braking and 10-50 Wh/mi for accessories (which includes HVAC). This is across a mix of surface street commuting and freeway driving around 65 mph. My normal mi/kWh numbers are 3.8-4.2 mi/kWh on the freeway at 65 mph and 4.2-4.8 mi/kWh for my surface street commuting (speed limits of 35-55 mph).

Thanks for pointing that out, I had never wandered to the Carwings page that provides the breakdown.

For Dec 24 which included most of the trips in the OP of this thread, the electricty for the traction motor was 295.7 Wh/mile. Regenerated energy was 34.4 Wh/mile. Electricity for accessories was 29.8 Wh/mile.
For Dec 25 which had only the very last trip in the OP of this thread, the electricty for the traction motor was 290.5 Wh/mile. Regenerated energy was 26.7 Wh/mile. Electricity for accessories was 54.2 Wh/mile.
I'm surprised the regenerated energy is this low. I only have 2 other days for December which are lower. Can't really explain that.
The electricity for the traction motor is not unusual on those days. It's typically about 330 Wh/mile, but the actual range is 256 - 436. The high extreme is an outlier.
For the accessories there is very wide variability, from 7 to 124 Wh/mile in December.

 

[LEAFer]

Well, FYI, I had a flat recently. One tire had to be replaced on 12/11/2012. Hopefully, for the $157 that the Nissan dealer charged for the matching tire, they checked the tire pressure.

I suggest you get a tire pressure gauge and check all four tires on a regular basis. Inflate all four to 40psi (when "cold", i.e. not having driven the car in at least 6 hours).

 

[DanBaldwin]

So, if I believe Carwings and the dash for yesterday, my economy was 4.1 miles/kWh going to work with no heat and a bit of downhill, and 2.7 miles/kWh coming back from work with heat, defogger, and a bit of uphill.
That's a quite a difference.

One of the common themes I'm seeing in your posts is "with heat, defogger......", and the way you state it, it seems like you're running the defroster the whole time. The defroster typically takes 4.5 kw in my car, so I only run it for a few minutes at a time, only enough to remove the frost from the windshield. It's possible that the power drawn by the defroster drops after a while, but I've never left it on long enough to find out because it draws 4.5 kw. At low speeds and in traffic, that might be enough to cut your range by half. I'm in the Los Angeles area, so perhaps I need less defrosting than you do.

Perhaps the reason you can't remember the "so what's the problem" comment by Dave is that it didn't quite happen the way he remembers it. It wasn't in post 2 or 3, it was post 29 on page 3, and he said;

Well you made it so you did ok. as far as taking the Prius? you made it so no worries.

Not a question, but a statement, so no reason to wait for a response, unless I missed a post.

The guys sure seem to like bashing the GOM, but I love it. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to hop in and see the GOM tell me I can go 93 miles on an 80% charge. I don't mind being lied to.

 

[surfingslovak]

Then, I grabbed some 50 amp service at the local desert RV park, and drove back over the 4000 foot pass (all elevation gain within about 25 miles) through Julian in a snow storm, at night. I didn't have any chains, so I was worried that the road would get closed down to me. The Rav4 handled it well with its stock all season tires.

Fantastic car.

Oh, come on Tony. Everybody knows that it never rains, not to mention snows, in Southern California. Your fair-weather EV driving experience, the occasional jaunt through Julian notwithstanding, hardly qualifies you pass judgement on what it takes to negotiate winter traffic on 101 or 880. Hardly! Happy New Year.

 

[edatoakrun]

... I think the impact of heat and hills are underestimated in the range chart's footnotes. I am not sure what if anything the EPA does in its mileage tests to account for those factors...

madbrain,

Actually, while Tony corrected his range chart long ago to get the temperature impact about right, IMO (but only if you assume battery and ambient temperatures are identical) The recovery of ascent energy shown in the chart is significantly in error, being both too low and imprecise. Tony, like some others LEAF drivers, never used Carwings, so they never benefited from the CW regen energy reports, which indicate this range chart error.

Check out the range test thread below, where I have posted multiple results of range tests which clearly show that ascent energy on this route always exceeds the 50% to 75% range indicated in the range chart. In fact, you could in theory recover close to 100% of ascent energy by descending using no regen at all, but this is not practical, for obvious reasons...

On 9/8/12 I made another "100%" to VLBW range test, repeating the same route I drove on 8/18/12, with close to 6,000 ft each of ascent and descent, with very slight variations in the final miles prior to VLBW, and got these results:

107.4 miles to VLBW, and 109.4 miles in total by odometer.

As reported by CW, 106.8 total miles (~2.5% under report), at 6.4 m/kWh, using 16.7 kWh.

Below is a screenshot of my CW "Electric Rate Simulation" including this trip:

Below ... the trip profile.. excluding the first and last ~0.3 miles and ~200 ft of descent and ascent on my driveway, that is not mapped by google.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking back at the previous range tests of ~93 to ~113 miles to ~VLBW, you will see I consistently get the longest range by using the most regen braking and driving more slowly. While regen is less efficient (how much, we don’t know) than recovering the ascent energy at higher speeds by simply “coasting”, the greater loss of energy to air resistance caused by driving at higher speed when I use less regen invariably lowers the total m/kWh, and the total miles before the VLBW, on this mountainous route.

Also note (as covered in detail on the thread) that this same series of range tests also leads me to believe that my LEAF is probably currently misreporting total energy use, as reported by both on-board “gauges” as m/kWh, and also in the Carwings energy use reports.

In other words, CW reports can be no more accurate than the energy use reports my LEAF supplies, so the “gauge problem” my LEAF now has, is precisely replicated in my CW kWh reports.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Oh, come on Tony. Everybody knows that it never rains, not to mentions snows, in Southern California. Your fair-weather EV driving experience, the occasional jaunt through Julian notwithstanding, hardly qualifies you pass judgement on what it takes to negotiate winter traffic on 101 or 880. Hardly! Happy New Year :lol:

Ya, not a lot of snow or 5000 to 6000 foot elevations in the SF Bay Area !!! Or deserts. It was beautiful with a near full moon reflecting off the fresh snow stuck on the trees. I'm confident that I'm probably the first street legal EV to drive in the sand at Ocotillo Wells.

In my decade of Bay Area living, I was always amazed how many times it was brought up how the area was "better" than LA for some reason (traffic, smog, beauty, people, etc). Of course, I had never heard anybody in LA making similar comparisons. But, for LA people, San Diego isn't even on the map!!! I think I like it that way, though.

But, we only have one football and one baseball team. Both LA and SF areas have two. That must be what it takes to catapult us into stardom.

Here's a good thread that addresses the heater use:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=254347#p254347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

The guys sure seem to like bashing the GOM, but I love it. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to hop in and see the GOM tell me I can go 93 miles on an 80% charge. I don't mind being lied to.

Oh, I think we all like to be lied to.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Well, FYI, I had a flat recently. One tire had to be replaced on 12/11/2012. Hopefully, for the $157 that the Nissan dealer charged for the matching tire, they checked the tire pressure. Not sure about alignment.
I took original delivery on 10/20.

oh that did it. inflate your tires up to the listed sidewall maximum. there is no down side to this whatsoever other than supposed ride comfort. this will also insure maximum tire life.

i tried tires at both Nissan recommended (recommended for ride comfort ONLY) and the tire manufacturer (recommended to maintain MAXIMUM safety and MAXIMUM life) and that is cold tire pressure rating.

 

[surfingslovak]

Dave is right. The dealer put your tires to 36 psi. Several experienced owners recommend higher tire pressure, such as 44 psi, much like GerryAZ describes in his post.