am I a mooch?

[Stoaty]

I can't believe there is all this hand wringing over $1 of electricity taken from an EVSE that didn't have any signs stating it was for paying customers of the casino only. On the other hand, I also can't believe I just spent 20 minutes reading this entire thread. The human mind is a curious thing.

 

[kieranmullen]

If there is a plug outside someones house, should you feel free to plug in because there is no sign? That is a weak case for justifying stealing.
There are many things for which there are no signs. They are called social norms!

I can't believe there is all this hand wringing over $1 of electricity taken from an EVSE that didn't have any signs stating it was for paying customers of the casino only. On the other hand, I also can't believe I just spent 20 minutes reading this entire thread. The human mind is a curious thing.

 

[Stoaty]

If there is a plug outside someones house, should you feel free to plug in because there is no sign? That is a weak case for justifying stealing.
There are many things for which there are no signs. They are called social norms!

Not following social norms is not the same as breaking the law. There is a huge difference between going to someones house and plugging in to their outlet and going to a business that has an EVSE installed that does not require any kind of card to charge. The EVSE could easily be set up to require a charge card like Chargepoint. In the former case, calling the police would likely result in a warning or an arrest. In the latter case, the police would see that no law was being broken.

 

[kieranmullen]

So are you saying stealing is ok because it is a business or because there is a EVSE outside?

If there is a plug outside someones house, should you feel free to plug in because there is no sign? That is a weak case for justifying stealing.
There are many things for which there are no signs. They are called social norms!

Not following social norms is not the same as breaking the law. There is a huge difference between going to someones house and plugging in to their outlet and going to a business that has an EVSE installed that does not require any kind of card to charge. The EVSE could easily be set up to require a charge card like Chargepoint. In the former case, calling the police would likely result in a warning or an arrest. In the latter case, the police would see that no law was being broken.

 

[MikeinDenver]

So are you saying stealing is ok because it is a business or because there is a EVSE outside?

If there is a plug outside someones house, should you feel free to plug in because there is no sign? That is a weak case for justifying stealing.
There are many things for which there are no signs. They are called social norms!

Not following social norms is not the same as breaking the law. There is a huge difference between going to someones house and plugging in to their outlet and going to a business that has an EVSE installed that does not require any kind of card to charge. The EVSE could easily be set up to require a charge card like Chargepoint. In the former case, calling the police would likely result in a warning or an arrest. In the latter case, the police would see that no law was being broken.

Well first you are making the judgement that it is stealing. But putting an EVSE outside with no requirements and no signage means it is a free for all. There is no purpose for an EVSE other than to charge a vehicle. If it is not charging a vehicle that has a need it is wasted infrastructure. Comparing it to an outlet at a private residence is just silly.

 

[Stoaty]

So are you saying stealing is ok because it is a business or because there is a EVSE outside?

No, I am saying that using the EVSE is not stealing.

 

[lion]

I wouldn't feel guilty if it isn't a regular thing. Think of it as part of their advertising strategy. Now you know this casino has a charging station, so next time you have the urge to gamble, you'll go there (or tell someone else with an EV to go there). If they didn't want you to use it, they would have locked it down one way or another (hotels are a big fan of this strategy).

It also depends on if they got public money/tax breaks to install this station, definitely don't feel guilty then.

In my state, Chili's offers charging stations (using public funds, so it's free for the first 3 years), and they have actually said that as long as it isn't abused, anyone is welcome to charge. Most businesses seem to feel the way.

Do leave a note behind saying it's ok to unplug you, and include your contact info, in case someone else needs the station (so don't lock the charging handle!).

 

[Nubo]

If there is a plug outside someones house, should you feel free to plug in because there is no sign? That is a weak case for justifying stealing.
There are many things for which there are no signs. They are called social norms!

There was no stealing needing justification. By social norms, the public understands that this business has provided parking free of charge or encumbrance (including any obligation to enter the establishment). And this free parking spot had an EVSE, which was also free of charge or encumbrance.

Social norms do apply here. I wouldn't apply the same assumptions to all parking situations. For example some small businesses on busy streets have only a few parking spaces available. There is usually signage in those cases. But even if there weren't I wouldn't hog a space as a non-patron because it's clear there is a shortage of spaces. But in the case of a lot with hundreds or even thousands of spaces and clearly no shortage, I don't see an ethical problem, much less a legal one.

There is such a thing as implied consent. Which is why we have "no trespassing signs", and also why you might occasionally find one of these on what might otherwise appear to be a "public walkway", etc...

 

[kieranmullen]

Your requirements for justification seem to change all the time. Now it is stealing is ok if the business is large but small. So what is the definition of large enough to steal from? How many sqft does the store need to be? How many locations? How many employees?

There are signs up in areas that also say "No Illegal Dumping" so Dumping your garbage elsewhere is ok? No, those signs are in place because people have abused the area previously and if non customers abuse the EVSE's that are put out, signs will go up. I for one hate signs and billboards.

You seem to be fixated on the amount, value and who it was from whereas it is truly about principal.

If there is a plug outside someones house, should you feel free to plug in because there is no sign? That is a weak case for justifying stealing.
There are many things for which there are no signs. They are called social norms!

There was no stealing needing justification. By social norms, the public understands that this business has provided parking free of charge or encumbrance (including any obligation to enter the establishment). And this free parking spot had an EVSE, which was also free of charge or encumbrance.

Social norms do apply here. I wouldn't apply the same assumptions to all parking situations. For example some small businesses on busy streets have only a few parking spaces available. There is usually signage in those cases. But even if there weren't I wouldn't hog a space as a non-patron because it's clear there is a shortage of spaces. But in the case of a lot with hundreds or even thousands of spaces and clearly no shortage, I don't see an ethical problem, much less a legal one.

There is such a thing as implied consent. Which is why we have "no trespassing signs", and also why you might occasionally find one of these on what might otherwise appear to be a "public walkway", etc...

 

[johnrhansen]

There is a shopping mall parking lot near me.... always lots of empty spaces... they have clearly posted "no commuter parking". It seems like that's become a problem for them. But they only included commuters in that sign. You'd think if they felt you had to patronize the establishment, they would have also said "customer parking only" But they didn't. Am I supposed to read between the lines on the sign here to extract the meaning? No. It means as long as I'm not using it as a park and ride lot to commute, then it's OK to park there.

 

[Nubo]

Your requirements for justification seem to change all the time. Now it is stealing is ok if the
business is large but small.

I think we both agree that stealing is not ok.

So what is the definition of large enough to steal from? How many sqft does the store need to be? How many locations? How many employees?

You were the one who brought up "social norms", and I think they apply. My reference to a small business lot was not meant to imply that parking there was stealing. But I do think it is unethical. In a lot where it obviously does not adversely affect the proprietor, the ethical dilemma goes away. It is not stealing in either case. Yes, there is a judgement call as to the ethical decision, and social norms come into play.

There are signs up in areas that also say "No Illegal Dumping" so Dumping your garbage elsewhere is ok? No, those signs are in place because people have abused the area previously and if non customers abuse the EVSE's that are put out, signs will go up. I for one hate signs and billboards.

The passage by permission is a different thing. If an owner allows passage (or does not enforce prohibition), then over a period of time, custom establishes the right of passage for all and then the owner may not legally be able to revoke it. I brought this up as it illustrates the principle of implied consent, which I think applies to the parking and EVSE on the casino property. Both the space and the EVSE present as free and available to the public with no obligation.

You seem to be fixated on the amount, value and who it was from whereas it is truly about principal.

No, that is the opposite of what I've been saying. I think I've been consistent that the amount is immaterial because it was not theft. It IS about principle.

 

[apvbguy]

So are you saying stealing is ok because it is a business or because there is a EVSE outside?

No, I am saying that using the EVSE is not stealing.

are you saying that if your local whole foods installs a charging station and devotes 2 parking spots in their parking lot for FREE EV charging that it is ok to park and charge your car without even stepping foot inside that store?

Many Walgreens have installed chargepoint chargers and charge for charging, if you park and PAY for the charging you are obviously not a mooch, but if you use a FREE charger uninvited at a business that installed the charger for THEIR CUSTOMERS you are a MOOCH

 

[Stoaty]

Many Walgreens have installed chargepoint chargers and charge for charging, if you park and PAY for the charging you are obviously not a mooch, but if you use a FREE charger uninvited at a business that installed the charger for THEIR CUSTOMERS you are a MOOCH

If there is a sign saying "for customers only" then yes, that would be stealing. No sign, not stealing. A lot of businesses will take steps to increase foot traffic in their stores (having a sale, installing something that will attract customers to their store). A certain percentage of those who park there to charge but don't intend to go into the store will wander into the store to check something out or buy something. Unless the business makes it clear with signage, we don't know what their motive is in offering the free EVSE.

 

[apvbguy]

Many Walgreens have installed chargepoint chargers and charge for charging, if you park and PAY for the charging you are obviously not a mooch, but if you use a FREE charger uninvited at a business that installed the charger for THEIR CUSTOMERS you are a MOOCH

If there is a sign saying "for customers only" then yes, that would be stealing. No sign, not stealing. A lot of businesses will take steps to increase foot traffic in their stores (having a sale, installing something that will attract customers to their store). A certain percentage of those who park there to charge but don't intend to go into the store will wander into the store to check something out or buy something. Unless the business makes it clear with signage, we don't know what their motive is in offering the free EVSE.

most private parking lots are for the usage of customers of the businesses that own/rent space in the shopping center the parking lot is for, so even using a parking space there in the parking lot without visiting one of the businesses there is mooching regardless of chargers. in many places you could find your car towed away

 

[Stoaty]

most private parking lots are for the usage of customers of the businesses that own/rent space in the shopping center the parking lot is for, so even using a parking space there in the parking lot without visiting one of the businesses there is mooching regardless of chargers.

If it is posted that it is only for customers, then yes. Otherwise, no.

 

[abasile]

most private parking lots are for the usage of customers of the businesses that own/rent space in the shopping center the parking lot is for, so even using a parking space there in the parking lot without visiting one of the businesses there is mooching regardless of chargers. in many places you could find your car towed away

If one is "abusing" the privilege of parking, or charging for free, then yes, I would expect there to be consequences. If one is habitually doing a lot of charging at a commercial, publicly available, free EVSE without ever patronizing the sponsoring business, then it is not likely the business will gain from this, and I'd consider that mooching. On the other hand, when folks visit occasionally and charge for free like the OP, then the business establishment will likely benefit. Case in point - the OP will likely spend money at that casino in the future, and they've just received free advertising in the EV community.

Personally, I used to occasionally leave my LEAF parked during weekdays on the outskirts of a large Walmart parking lot in a non-crowded area and bicycle the remaining distance to and from my employer. This gave me some good exercise and generally eliminated the need to hypermile in driving back up our mountain, since I wasn't allowed to charge regularly at work. If everyone did this all of the time, there'd obviously be a problem for the Walmart, but how many people are willing to drive a limited range EV and use a bicycle as a range extender? :lol: (I constantly varied my parking/biking routine, and the other parking locations were public streets.)

 

[apvbguy]

Personally, I used to occasionally leave my LEAF parked during weekdays on the outskirts of a large Walmart parking lot in a non-crowded area and bicycle the remaining distance to and from my employer.

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
there is no almost pregnant
no matter how you justify your mooching it is still mooching, the caveat being is that wal mart in particular allows rv parking in their lots in the hopes that the RVers will come in and buy supplies. It is well known in the RV world which Wally Worlds are worth stopping at.

 

[abasile]

the caveat being is that wal mart in particular allows rv parking in their lots in the hopes that the RVers will come in and buy supplies.

FWIW, we continue to shop at that Walmart from time to time. And I knew that about RV parking.

 

[EVDRIVER]

.[/quote]
If it is posted that it is only for customers, then yes. Otherwise, no.[/quote]



That is a subjective assumption not a fact. I happen to know of a Whole Foods that does not mark for customers and if you ask they will tell you they are ONLY for customers. You are assuming this is everyone's marking strategy, this is an assumption that may or may not be true but is is just an assumption.

There is no grey area with charging on public property. Unless it is clearly marked for public use (or stated elsewhere) then it should always be assumed it is for private use or for customers only. There is no unspoken or documented EV charging code that gets to override the rules of private property or common sense and respect based on ones own views, values, assumptions, rationalizations, justifications, wishes, etc.


So if there is a grocery store with produce on the curb side and plastic bag rolls for holding items and it is not marked "for customers only" I can just take all the bags I want? I mean, if it's not marked then why not?

 

[EVDRIVER]

On the other hand, when folks visit occasionally and charge for free like the OP, then the business establishment will likely benefit. Case in point - the OP will likely spend money at that casino in the future, and they've just received free advertising in the EV community.

)

That is purely speculative and non-fact. I can give you dozens of real-live situations where this is not the case but that is beside the point. We can spend days debating "soft" marking benefits but it is simply an exercise in rationalization.