am I a mooch?

[EVDRIVER]

If someone leaves a store and tosses their change on the ground, are you a mooch for picking it up? They voluntarily tossed it without any mention of who should get it or why they were tossing it. So I say that you're fine.

As a side note, I recently parked at a Chargepoint that is charging $0.50 per hour of active connect time. I stayed parked there for 4 hours and was only charged $0.75 because it only took 1.5 hours to charge my car. My $0.75 barely covers 6kW for 1.5 hours (comes out $0.0833 per kWh), and does not cover the cost of purchasing, installing, or maintaining the EVSE, billing, power distribution charge, or land cost. And I was getting free parking in a crowded city.

Am I a mooch? I don't think so. They picked the terms and I met them. They had their reasons and I considered them good for all. What were their reasons? It could be less noise, less pollution, encouraging EVs, making them look progressive, getting a tax credit, or something else. Whatever their reasons, it was a win-win for all. That shouldn't leave anyone feeling guilty.

Bob

Bob, Apples and Oranges. When someone throws something away it is implied that they do not want it in most cases. The offerings at Charge Point are very clear and it has not relevance on mooching or this situation. A private business is very similar to a private home, it is common knowledge and a fact unless otherwise stated that services connected to a business are intended for the business and for use of patrons of that business when stated as such. If a private business posts a sign that says "free public charging" in a way you get your pennies on the ground. If not it belongs to them. Period.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Many business actually have EVSE units intended only for charging their business cars. Is there some law that says any unmarked EVSE is for customer use unless clearly marked? Does a business need to mark the space private? No, of course not. EV drivers come to assume this is for them, this was not as much the case years ago.

What if the owner put the EVSE there for their own personal use? To be accurate, if it does not say customer charging why is the assumption that it is even for customers or the public? Is a J1772 handle an automatic right to charge? Nonsense. Unless there is prior knowledge, a sign, or other indication an EVSE on private property should be assumed to be for private use.

Anyone can justify, rationalize or set their penny limit to where stealing begins but unless it is a public charge station or one that is on a public charge map then it should always be assumed it is private and courtesy extended as such. When in doubt asking costs less than the first watt of power and assuming is just a way to justify the situation. Of course we can use reason with these situations but the facts remain.

For those that say there is no harm if someone only takes $1.20, then I would like to know how you determine the harm value and based on how many users per week. I would like to get the guidelines on that and the KW rates each business pays considering commercial TOU rates now in place as well. :roll:

 

[abasile]

I feel bad mooching off free electricity every day at my office provided charge point station. <snip> But then again I charge only to the extent that gets me back home with some reasonable buffer, and I always start from my home with a full charge. But I guess there are many who skip charging at home completely and rolls into office with 2 bars left and then charge fully here - I could be wrong but given that the Leafs & Volts are charging for several hours everyday, it seems that way. That to me is mooching.

Of those employees who do all of their charging at work, it is possible that some of them live in apartments/condos and cannot easily charge at home. Others might live in rental houses and therefore not be inclined to invest in setting up for 240 V home charging if they don't have to. Your employer is doing a good thing by enabling more people to become EV drivers!

However, as an EV driver, I feel that it is generally best to avoid using public or workplace charging, free or paid, when it is not necessary to having a comfortable margin of charge or keeping a PHEV in EV mode. Today's charging infrastructure is still quite limited (otherwise this discussion probably wouldn't have started), so it seems best to leave it available for those who need it while minimizing the burden on site hosts.

In my case, there's virtually no public charging available until I'm beyond the comfortable, single-charge, roundtrip range of our LEAF. So the best example I can give personally is that I have permission to charge at our church, and our pastor has encouraged me to plug in, but I've only done so on very limited occasions when the car's charge is too low to return home with a reasonable margin. If I drove a PHEV other than a Volt, I'd probably plug in at church every time, though (and would make sure everyone in leadership is aware that we are covering the costs).

 

[Nubo]

Many business actually have EVSE units intended only for charging their business cars. Is there some law that says any unmarked EVSE is for customer use unless clearly marked? Does a business need to mark the space private? No, of course not.

It depends on the situation. Is that EVSE mounted in front of what otherwise would appear to be a publicly-accessible parking space? If so then it is reasonable to assume that the same conditions apply to the EVSE as apply to the parking space.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Many business actually have EVSE units intended only for charging their business cars. Is there some law that says any unmarked EVSE is for customer use unless clearly marked? Does a business need to mark the space private? No, of course not.

It depends on the situation. Is that EVSE mounted in front of what otherwise would appear to be a publicly-accessible parking space? If so then it is reasonable to assume that the same conditions apply to the EVSE as apply to the parking space.

My driveway has public access. The back of a business does as well. The dumpsters at businesses often have the same access, can I sump in them.

 

[Nubo]

Many business actually have EVSE units intended only for charging their business cars. Is there some law that says any unmarked EVSE is for customer use unless clearly marked? Does a business need to mark the space private? No, of course not.

It depends on the situation. Is that EVSE mounted in front of what otherwise would appear to be a publicly-accessible parking space? If so then it is reasonable to assume that the same conditions apply to the EVSE as apply to the parking space.

My driveway has public access. The back of a business does as well. The dumpsters at businesses often have the same access, can I sump in them.

Non-sequitur. If the business already has clearly-identifiable parking spaces available to the public, then mounting an EVSE in front of one of them presents as available to anyone who would already have access to the space. I.e., the EVSE is naturally associated with the space. A dumpster does not have such an association.

If I were to be installing an EVSE at a business location, I would certainly expect people to make this assumption. If I intended the unit for business-only use I would take steps to make sure the purpose was clearly understood. I wouldn't install in front of a customer parking space; I'd re-mark the space otherwise people would feel free to park there.

This isn't difficult. There's no need for exceptional piety or to accuse each other of "stealing". Installing a sign or using a little bit of paint is a trivial exercise and a reasonable person would expect this to be done if the intent was to have a private installation. Rather than leaving a situation where people of goodwill and good ethics would naturally assume the station is available to them.

 

[MikeinDenver]

Many business actually have EVSE units intended only for charging their business cars. Is there some law that says any unmarked EVSE is for customer use unless clearly marked? Does a business need to mark the space private? No, of course not.

It depends on the situation. Is that EVSE mounted in front of what otherwise would appear to be a publicly-accessible parking space? If so then it is reasonable to assume that the same conditions apply to the EVSE as apply to the parking space.

My driveway has public access. The back of a business does as well. The dumpsters at businesses often have the same access, can I sump in them.

A private driveway is not the same as a business parking lot.

 

[mctom987]

A private driveway is not the same as a business parking lot.

True, but they aren't that different. Both are private property, and both can tow for trespassing.

 

[MikeinDenver]

A private driveway is not the same as a business parking lot.

True, but they aren't that different. Both are private property, and both can tow for trespassing.

Yes but one is meant to invite people to park there(unless otherwise signed) the other is meant for invited guests or owners to park there.

 

[joewaters]

The casino installed the L2 stations in the parking lot to entice Leafers to become gamblers. The first time, parking lot. Second time, restaurant. Third time, slot machines. So on, so forth. Theoretically, next time John visits, his guilt will lead him further in. The casino is banking on behavioral traits trained into us by our parents. He clearly exhibits the guilt trait, so half the battle is won. Even if he never visits the casino, he has already named it and provided free advertising. And informed EV drivers of a place to visit, friendly to EVs. They hope for this kind of advertising. It costs them only pennies a day to have the stations. The electric consumption of a casino is huge and can absorb the EV charging unnoticed. They do not require John to enter the casino in exchange for free charging, because his presence there for hours as he charges is highly likely. How he spent those hours is what bothers him, but he has already given the casino free advertising by posting here. Conscience quelled at no direct (financial) cost to him. Bravo John, sleep soundly tonight.
Joe

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It's interesting to note that there are way more replies to my post during working hours M-F... If it's not OK to steal "just a little" from the casino, how about taking one minute of your boss' time to be on MNL?

please tell us how you know that everyone works, or works the same hours you do.

Amen. I am here all hours of the day and rarely post from work unless on break. I do log 10-15 hours of work from home weekly so that doesn't really count as most of the time is not structured. There are times where my job is a bit of sit and wait so might be on a bit here and there in those circumstances but the thought that most people work Monday thru Friday has past. For people I know like family, etc. the only one who has a Mon-Fri job (although he works EVERY holiday) is off work at 1 PM.

 

[Alex32817]

I would love to see more free charging locations. Most of the public access chargers cost around $0.55/kWh. ~$10 to recharge. Not horrible, but certainly not free.

$0.55/kWh! OUCH.. And I am pissed that Walgreens is charging @ $0.49/kWh, where all the charging stations around me, over 300 in the Orlando area, most charge $0.13/kWh. Even the DC chargers, without any kind of parking fees. I guess we have it good in Orlando, Fl still regarding the fees and so on for EVs.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

What really grinds my gears is paying $2 for a snickers bar from a vending machine when I can get them by the case for 30 cents each at Costco.

 

[abasile]

And I am pissed that Walgreens is charging @ $0.49/kWh, where all the charging stations around me, over 300 in the Orlando area, most charge $0.13/kWh. Even the DC chargers, without any kind of parking fees. I guess we have it good in Orlando, Fl still regarding the fees and so on for EVs.

Wow, even at home I usually pay more than $0.13/kWh. For public charging, $0.49/kWh doesn't seem all that bad. I'm happy to pay that when I need a few extra kWh to get home. Sometimes we'll plug in at a Walgreens for $0.49/kWh, then walk across the street to Trader Joe's for some groceries while the car is charging.

 

[johnrhansen]

.

 

[mkjayakumar]

What really grinds my gears is paying $2 for a snickers bar from a vending machine when I can get them by the case for 30 cents each at Costco.

Well said. Also as another example I don't see anyone complaining when I see long lines in Starbucks for $4 crapola coffee when you can actually brew one at your home for 50c.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...However, as an EV driver, I feel that it is generally best to avoid using public or workplace charging, free or paid, when it is not necessary to having a comfortable margin of charge or keeping a PHEV in EV mode. Today's charging infrastructure is still quite limited (otherwise this discussion probably wouldn't have started), so it seems best to leave it available for those who need it while minimizing the burden on site hosts...

Interesting perspective. Now that I have a public charge station in my destination city I use it every time I'm there, so that the city staffer, who led the project, and the general public can see it being used. The cost to me in time is more than the 50 cents per hour in electricity that my car draws, and my electricity at home is free from the sun. But I am doing it to show support for the charge station (and I helped pay for it with my annual state EV registration fee). This sort of early adopter mentality is long gone nowadays from where most LEAF drivers live I would guess. Here it is strictly "EV pioneer" days.

Am I a "mooch" for doing this? No.

 

[abasile]

...However, as an EV driver, I feel that it is generally best to avoid using public or workplace charging, free or paid, when it is not necessary to having a comfortable margin of charge or keeping a PHEV in EV mode. Today's charging infrastructure is still quite limited (otherwise this discussion probably wouldn't have started), so it seems best to leave it available for those who need it while minimizing the burden on site hosts...

Interesting perspective. Now that I have a public charge station in my destination city I use it every time I'm there, so that the city staffer, who led the project, and the general public can see it being used. The cost to me in time is more than the 50 cents per hour in electricity that my car draws, and my electricity at home is free from the sun. But I am doing it to show support for the charge station (and I helped pay for it with my annual state EV registration fee). This sort of early adopter mentality is long gone nowadays from where most LEAF drivers live I would guess. Here it is strictly "EV pioneer" days.

In your shoes, I would do the same thing. I would agree that if a charging station is brand new or doesn't get much use, then it's best for people to see someone using it. In the case where one is using a charging station for this reason rather than out of necessity, I think it is especially important to leave a note if there exists any possibility of blocking someone who might truly need it. In a rural area, perhaps that someone might be a long-distance Tesla driver.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

What really grinds my gears is paying $2 for a snickers bar from a vending machine when I can get them by the case for 30 cents each at Costco.

Well said. Also as another example I don't see anyone complaining when I see long lines in Starbucks for $4 crapola coffee when you can actually brew one at your home for 50c.

50 cents?? wow, that is some premium stuff!

ya, the ones who complain the most are the ones paying it. if you don't want to pay it, don't use it. there is someone there to take your place and as long as there is, they will continue to charge it

 

[kieranmullen]

It seems to me many EV drivers are mooches and cheap.

All the hassle they go through to get $2 worth of free power too cheap to go to a blink QC and get it done in 20 minutes.