am I a mooch?

[abasile]

Here is a problem. I take it anyone can post anywhere on plug share whether it's their plug or not, am I correct? I have posted my own evse, but I have been reluctant to enter one outside my control without the owner's permission unless it's obviously a public charger. Why? Because people like us see it and assume it's ok to charge there. We have talked that subject into the ground. Here's something else to discuss: if you find a place to charge like a rv park, do you post it? Do you tell the owner about plugshare and suggest they post their spot? (Never happens), or do you ask permission to post it and post it yourself, or do you just post it? Shouldn't plugshare keep track of who posts what and make you check a box saying you are the owner or have permission from the owner, and the plug is available free for public use unless signed or stated otherwise? That would remove all doubt.

PlugShare is of course a crowd sourced database, so it should not by itself be taken as an authority on where it's okay to charge. Users should generally only be posting publicly-available EVSEs, and should state any known restrictions and/or fees, but we know that there will be "errors". Posting an RV park, hotel, etc. seems perfectly fine as long as the owner has stated that EVs can be accommodated. I would not expect PlugShare's administrators to be spending much time verifying what people have posted. If in doubt, it's always good to check with the owner or site host.

The real advantage of PlugShare is that it seems to have the most complete database, if not always the most accurate. Plus, being able to see that others have recently, successfully charged (or not) at a given site can be very, very helpful. Harnessing the eyes of the "crowd" is a great way to go, IMHO.

 

[apvbguy]

Yes, and a psychologist might be impressed at the "black and white" thinking that some have displayed here, with difficulty seeing shades of gray. (Hint: this type of thinking isn't considered healthy)

ok lucy, where should I send the nickel?

 

[Stoaty]

ok lucy, where should I send the nickel?

In real life, I charge a lot more than that. Have been a psychiatrist for 20 years treating severe and persistent mental illness in a community mental health center.

 

[Nubo]

if you find a place to charge like a rv park, do you post it? Do you tell the owner about plugshare and suggest they post their spot? (Never happens), or do you ask permission to post it and post it yourself, or do you just post it? Shouldn't plugshare keep track of who posts what and make you check a box saying you are the owner or have permission from the owner, and the plug is available free for public use unless signed or stated otherwise? That would remove all doubt.

I haven't tried an RV park but I did have one selected as an alternate on a recent road trip (carried a 14-50 adapter). Had I seen the need to divert there, I would have called ahead to verify availability, to avoid wasted travel if nothing else. I'm assuming RV parks charge a fee, as a rule. In this case I think it was $25. Pretty steep for what would have been for me an L2 charge at 16 amps. But then again I would have been tying up a port for several hours that they could have provided to the next Battlestar to request docking :lol: . But I guess what I'm getting at is I don't see a problem for the RV park in being listed. Permission comes when they agree to take your money for the charge opportunity. I don't think anyone is advocating to just roll into an RV park and hook up. I can't see any risk to the park, but possibly to an unsuspecting electronaut if someone flippantly lists the place without knowing if EV charging is welcome. There usually are comments that alleviate that concern. But again, I consider RV parks to be "call ahead" stops.

 

[kubel]

I'm hardly an expert on private property, but as an anarcho-capitalist, it's my opinion that if you open your private property to the public, and you make something available for free, and people exploit your generosity, your best option is to establish rules for use. There's nothing wrong with saying "charging is free today if you gamble at our casino". Otherwise, you are giving it away for nothing (not that there's anything wrong with that either). I know people that go to Harbor Freight only for a free flashlight (it's a no purchase necessary promotion). I see nothing unethical about that. And I see nothing wrong with being an electricity mooch.

 

[johnrhansen]

I go to rv parks all the time. Thing is, if you want to use it more than once, you should make the owners happy. I've found 5 bucks fits the bill nicely, especially if I can do the charge with 2 tt30s instead of their precious 14 50 plugs. I built a combiner box. You can just take the google maps and trace out your route. There always seems to be an rv park somewhere.

 

[fefrie]

I'll quickly chime in and say that you're not mooching.

Many times I've gone into a casino and eaten the special deal buffet and walked out the door.

Or I've gone in on the weekend to listen to the house band and walk out the door.

It's all free on the hope that one day I will lose more than I gain.

Eventually someone like you will drive up, charge, feel like a mooch, drop $10 on black, win, get a crippling gambling addiction, to more than pay for any power ever taken for the lifetime of that spot.

Don't worry.

The house always wins.

And here's the real acid test of charging stations on commercial property.

Is one obligated to patronize the business of where the charger is located? So what if it's at the Mall? Are they obligated to purchase anything?

Well now that I think about it, it is a bit of a mooch to leave the property, unless there is a sign that says that the charging stations are expressly for the customers of said establishment.

But the real question is WHY the charging spot is where it is. Is it mandated by some municipal authority to be installed to further the electric network, or is it a business scheme to derive more customers?

I think it's more of the former. Early adopters need to be fostered to encourage more EV ownership. Where I live with the heatwave, there is smog, so anything that fosters EV ownership is a good thing.

my 2c

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

What we do realize is the results of the intent will be realized.

The casino put in the charging stations to as a goodwill gesture and to attract customers. The OP's posting this pretty much assures that the OP will do something with the casino in the future. Either way, by using the station, the OP has now informed his circle which means its now a source of free advertising of the best kind; word of mouth.

The other thing to think about; the Casino is likely paying VERY low rates for its electricity, so use, even excessive use, is very unlikely to ever become an issue. it is a win-win situation

 

[apvbguy]

The casino put in the charging stations to as a goodwill gesture and to attract customers.

this is where I think your assessment goes off the rails. the evse wasn't put in to attract people it was put in as a convenience for their customers who drive plug in cars.
nonetheless regardless of why the evse was installed the OP stated that he was just parking in the casino lot in order to store the car while going elsewhere in someone else's car.
no matter how you slice it the OP was trespassing and is a mooch

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The casino put in the charging stations to as a goodwill gesture and to attract customers.

this is where I think your assessment goes off the rails. the evse wasn't put in to attract people it was put in as a convenience for their customers who drive plug in cars.
nonetheless regardless of why the evse was installed the OP stated that he was just parking in the casino lot in order to store the car while going elsewhere in someone else's car.
no matter how you slice it the OP was trespassing and is a mooch

you make the accusation that my assumption is wrong with another assumption?

 

[MikeinDenver]

The casino put in the charging stations to as a goodwill gesture and to attract customers.

this is where I think your assessment goes off the rails. the evse wasn't put in to attract people it was put in as a convenience for their customers who drive plug in cars.
nonetheless regardless of why the evse was installed the OP stated that he was just parking in the casino lot in order to store the car while going elsewhere in someone else's car.
no matter how you slice it the OP was trespassing and is a mooch

you make the accusation that my assumption is wrong with another assumption?

:shock:

 

[Slow1]

Wow, this thread has been fun to read!

Got me thinking - the OP asked "am I a mooch?" - so what exactly is a "mooch"? Dictionary.com says:

mooch [mooch] Show IPA Slang.
verb (used with object)
1. to borrow (a small item or amount) without intending to return or repay it.
2. to get or take without paying or at another's expense; sponge: He always mooches cigarettes.
3. to beg.
4. to steal.
verb (used without object)
5. to skulk or sneak.
6. to loiter or wander about.

So, it seems that verb definition 2 fits the situation well enough. However, this definition doesn't seem to exclude gifts - i.e. if I like to give away those cigarettes to people for whatever reason, are those who accept the gifts mooches? Hmmm... I don't think most social circles would think of it this way. In any case, the term "mooch" certainly has negative connotations so I would likely not choose that label.

My question to the OP: Why do you want to know the answer to this question?

 

[VoltWagon]

I am sure the technology exists now but at some point in the future I would think that all electric vehicles could have a power meter built into them that would allow you to pay for power used anywhere and subtract the use from the bill of the person or business supplying it. At the end of the month you send your payment to universal power company and everyone is happy.

 

[Nubo]

I am sure the technology exists now but at some point in the future I would think that all electric vehicles could have a power meter built into them that would allow you to pay for power used anywhere and subtract the use from the bill of the person or business supplying it. At the end of the month you send your payment to universal power company and everyone is happy.

It's already there. According to PlugShare, the casino's units are on the SemaCharge network. So they're already set up to use authentications and debits if the site owner wished. It's also reported to be right by the Valet, so if the site owner wanted to offer it as an amenity to customers it would be simple and obvious to key the units to the Casino's RFID card and have the valet activate the units when requested.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm hardly an expert on private property, but as an anarcho-capitalist, it's my opinion that if you open your private property to the public, and you make something available for free, and people exploit your generosity, your best option is to establish rules for use. There's nothing wrong with saying "charging is free today if you gamble at our casino". Otherwise, you are giving it away for nothing (not that there's anything wrong with that either). I know people that go to Harbor Freight only for a free flashlight (it's a no purchase necessary promotion). I see nothing unethical about that. And I see nothing wrong with being an electricity mooch.

You are comparing a posted promotion clearly intended to bring people into a store that states no purchase needed to a private business that invites customers to park in their lot but does not post "free charging". Particularly to those people that are not customers. Opening your lot is not an invitation to to get free charging, water or dump things in the dumpster. When in doubt why is asking such a big deal? End of issue and confusion.

 

[Stoaty]

When in doubt why is asking such a big deal? End of issue and confusion.

If business wants to remove doubt, it is easy for them to post a sign. Absence of such a sign means they either don't care or want to leave it ambiguous for whatever reason.

 

[Nubo]

You are comparing a posted promotion clearly intended to bring people into a store that states no purchase needed to a private business that invites customers to park in their lot but does not post "free charging". Particularly to those people that are not customers. Opening your lot is not an invitation to to get free charging, water or dump things in the dumpster. When in doubt why is asking such a big deal? End of issue and confusion.

Here's the number

(253) 804-4444

 

[fefrie]

When in doubt why is asking such a big deal? End of issue and confusion.

If business wants to remove doubt, it is easy for them to post a sign. Absence of such a sign means they either don't care or want to leave it ambiguous for whatever reason.

I'm guessing that without a sign, or enough people asking the casino for them to consider putting up a sign, the casino doesn't care either way.

If I remember correctly, most parking lots have signs stating the permitted use of the lots. If it's an issue, they should post the same signs next to the charging station if it falls underneath the same policy. Since EV use is so rare at this point, it's a bit ambiguous.

If this casino was in the middle of nowhere and there wasn't a charging station for 30 miles either way, and you didn't have any money, would it fall under reasonable action to charge up and drive off? I'd say yes.

If you needed to charge your Leaf at a Nissan Dealership, would it be expected of you to sit and listen to a sales speech for an hour as a courtesy for charging up? I'd say no, and I don't think the dealership would want to bore anyone that way everytime you charged up.


So carry on.

 

[johnrhansen]

Wow, this thread has been fun to read!

Got me thinking - the OP asked "am I a mooch?" - so what exactly is a "mooch"? Dictionary.com says:

mooch [mooch] Show IPA Slang.
verb (used with object)
1. to borrow (a small item or amount) without intending to return or repay it.
2. to get or take without paying or at another's expense; sponge: He always mooches cigarettes.
3. to beg.
4. to steal.
verb (used without object)
5. to skulk or sneak.
6. to loiter or wander about.

So, it seems that verb definition 2 fits the situation well enough. However, this definition doesn't seem to exclude gifts - i.e. if I like to give away those cigarettes to people for whatever reason, are those who accept the gifts mooches? Hmmm... I don't think most social circles would think of it this way. In any case, the term "mooch" certainly has negative connotations so I would likely not choose that label.

My question to the OP: Why do you want to know the answer to this question?

That's simple. I knew how my conscience was arguing with me when I first posed the question to myself. I thought that it would likely be on the minds of others and would be something interesting to talk about.

In learned something by asking it. The other day I found a city park in north bend with a bunch of 240 volt plugs. It's on plugshare. My concsience forbade me from charging there. There were some cues like shrubs being planted by the light stands, blocking access, one of the doors on the stands being locked, just the whole feel of the place made me feel like I would be stealing by charging there. So I didn't. I got no such cues from Muckleshoot. So I did. I planned to have dinner there after my hike, I just wasn't hungry when the time came. I felt no need to attack my body with food it did not need just to clear my conscience. So I didn't.

I can now answer my own question. No I am not a mooch. I always give back more than I take. Muckleshoot, I owe you one. Thanks again for putting up the charger.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

:shock:

1) you don't know why the casino did anything so you can only assume

2) it was not the OP's intention to not visit the casino. reread the post

3) talk to the police. in any theft situation, there is always a need for some sort of deterrent to be in place like a sign. OP states no sign and in less than an hour, I will be there to see exactly what if anything, the sign says ANYWHERE on the property.

keep in mind; the OP only knows there is nothing specific at the charging station but did not mention whether there was a sign on the premise stating for Casino usage only.