am I a mooch?

[Nubo]

wow! can't believe this thread is still alive. lets keep it going!

the weather is expected to rise into the upper 90's in the Great Pacific Northwest which means inversion layers and higher levels of pollution which also means one should reduce their driving to vital needs only OR if like us, offer someone a ride!!

I have the feeling this topic will become much more important as the number of EVs grows and they become common place.

I can imagine though that if the parking lot had e.g. a spot with a non-pay-per-use gasoline dispenser, which would give out a few ounces of gasoline every hour, the situation might be judged quite differently...

Yep, and it seems to be the core of the fundamental disagreement in this thread. You don't see free gasoline pumps in front of customer parking spaces. Any business that has onsite gas pumps for business use, keeps them restricted by gates, locks, etc… For obvious reasons such as cost and safety. That free EVSE are provided, seemingly without care by proprietors, suggests a fundamental difference.

Maybe because the fuel is so much cheaper, maybe because proprietors are being ecologically conscious, promoting the new alternative, etc… Whatever the reason, it's clear that it's being treated differently. And so while some may claim there are no grey areas, I think this observation shows there IS a difference in perception and in how society percieves these units. It's not like anything we're used to. There is some ambiguity and I think any reasonable proprietor who wished to restrict use would recognize the ambiguity or at least soon realize that people were not seeing what they thought was clear intent. And they would take the very simple steps necessary to make clear their intent.

 

[johnrhansen]

You have to lock up gas pumps. Some person would go up there in the middle of the night nand clean you out, sell the gas and go buy drugs with the money. Electricity can't be stolen in that quantity with current technology. It's theft for profit that makes the difference here. We ev drivers are just trying to make it home

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have the feeling this topic will become much more important as the number of EVs grows and they become common place.

I can imagine though that if the parking lot had e.g. a spot with a non-pay-per-use gasoline dispenser, which would give out a few ounces of gasoline every hour, the situation might be judged quite differently...

Yep, and it seems to be the core of the fundamental disagreement in this thread. You don't see free gasoline pumps in front of customer parking spaces. Any business that has onsite gas pumps for business use, keeps them restricted by gates, locks, etc… For obvious reasons such as cost and safety. That free EVSE are provided, seemingly without care by proprietors, suggests a fundamental difference.

Maybe because the fuel is so much cheaper, maybe because proprietors are being ecologically conscious, promoting the new alternative, etc… Whatever the reason, it's clear that it's being treated differently. And so while some may claim there are no grey areas, I think this observation shows there IS a difference in perception and in how society percieves these units. It's not like anything we're used to. There is some ambiguity and I think any reasonable proprietor who wished to restrict use would recognize the ambiguity or at least soon realize that people were not seeing what they thought was clear intent. And they would take the very simple steps necessary to make clear their intent.

I guess my comment was based on the fact that you have 2 fundamental disagreements based on personal standards. Businesses don't run that way. Ignoring the ridiculous analogies presented, the fact of the matter is that the charging is offered free by the casino with no strings attached so that is not the question. It is the same for parking. Now, it is implied that the lot is for customers only and should one have a very large event going on near by, then parking enforcement by the casino is likely.

On Saturday, I am going to Journey concert in Auburn at White River Amphitheater. We will be stopping at Muckleshoot Casino to charge. Now we plan to eat and I am going with a pair of gambling addicts so no doubt they will want to arrive early for several different reasons (that and its outdoor "first come, first served" seating) but whether we were going to the Casino or not, I would be ok with not going inside. Considering both venues are on the Muckleshoot Res. I am suspecting they own both or at least have a financial interest in both.

As an Auditor, I have found that most Indian Reservations are the same. So parking at the Casino to go somewhere else near by does not mean you are ignoring them. You are likely supporting them in ways you had never dreamed of. Island Enterprises is the Parent Company/owner of Little Creek Casino run by the Squaxin Island Tribe near Shelton.

Not including the Casino, smoke shop and convenience store/gas station in the immediate area; they also own 9 other convenience stores in the area. There is very little you can buy in the area that they don't have a piece of.

So, all in all; make no mistake, the Casino was built with YOUR money. And yes, very much like the Phoenix rising from the ashes, most are elaborate and built in the middle of nowhere and provide a HUGE income to the tribes involved. Its like "7 Eleven Day" (Mentioned because it was only a few days ago) when they give away millions of free slurpees. no purchase required. But are you really going to go there and not buy anything else? some will but most wont and they do have a nice selection of items that are cheap so its easy to justify a $2 purchase especially when you know you are getting 15 cents worth of frozen sugar (yes the cup is 2/3rds of the cost) in a specially designed 7 oz, 11 gram cup.

Really this discussion reminds me of the "right to plug in" for PiPs. Why is there a discussion about that?? they have plug... end of discussion!

Need is not an option! if it were need, I would decree that anyone getting on the freeway can only do so if they are going at least 20 miles unless they are in an area where surface streets are not an option (unfortunately I live 4 miles from such an area )

This would eliminate the local traffic using the freeway for cross town commutes.

 

[klapauzius]

You have to lock up gas pumps. Some person would go up there in the middle of the night nand clean you out, sell the gas and go buy drugs with the money. Electricity can't be stolen in that quantity with current technology. It's theft for profit that makes the difference here. We ev drivers are just trying to make it home

In my example the pump would give out gas in the same energy amount as the charging station gives out electricity, e.g. maybe 1/8 gallon per hour. But yes, people would try to steal that.

When it comes to tangible things, apparently people have much stronger feelings about "stealing" than with the intangible stuff.

In any case, I think there is a gray area. Particularly with the dollar amounts involved, allegations of "stealing" are just ridiculous.

If they felt they needed to be paid, they should have either put a sign on the charging station ("only for customers"...like on most restrooms in businesses these days) or make it a per-per-charge-EVSE.

 

[EVDRIVER]

[quote

Really this discussion reminds me of the "right to plug in" for PiPs. Why is there a discussion about that?? they have plug... end of discussion!

.[/quote]


I see no relation to this thread and a PIP, they have the right to use the same stations as an EV, if they should is a bigger discussion.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Comparing a gas pump to an EVSE in this day of few EVs is apples to oranges, there are clear reasons that is different not to mention few even know what an EVSE is.

 

[dgalvan]

I have the feeling this topic will become much more important as the number of EVs grows and they become common place.
.

Actually, I have a feeling it will remain a niche ambiguity, since I expect most new EVSE's installed by businesses will be associated with NRGevo, Chargepoint, or Blink and payment will be required. That eliminates the ambiguity for sure. It's a pretty small minority of EVSES that are both in public parking lots AND free to use.

 

[klapauzius]

I have the feeling this topic will become much more important as the number of EVs grows and they become common place.
.

Actually, I have a feeling it will remain a niche ambiguity, since I expect most new EVSE's installed by businesses will be associated with NRGevo, Chargepoint, or Blink and payment will be required. That eliminates the ambiguity for sure. It's a pretty small minority of EVSES that are both in public parking lots AND free to use.

I see lots of places that offer free Wifi as an incentive to stop there and buy stuff. I can imagine this could be similar with L2 charging and might increase proportionally to EV use as well.

 

[apvbguy]

I have the feeling this topic will become much more important as the number of EVs grows and they become common place.
.

Actually, I have a feeling it will remain a niche ambiguity, since I expect most new EVSE's installed by businesses will be associated with NRGevo, Chargepoint, or Blink and payment will be required. That eliminates the ambiguity for sure. It's a pretty small minority of EVSES that are both in public parking lots AND free to use.

I see lots of places that offer free Wifi as an incentive to stop there and buy stuff. I can imagine this could be similar with L2 charging and might increase proportionally to EV use as well.

the fact that a person doesn't plan on stopping in, accepting the "bait" is what renders them a mooch.
this thread has exposed people for what they are, a sociologist would have a real interesting read here

 

[Stoaty]

the fact that a person doesn't plan on stopping in, accepting the "bait" is what renders them a mooch.

Hey, when you are fishing you have to accept that most of the time the bait is not going to catch you a fish. Businesses know that and make their decisions accordingly. Apparently they are still catching enough for dinner.

this thread has exposed people for what they are, a sociologist would have a real interesting read here

Yes, and a psychologist might be impressed at the "black and white" thinking that some have displayed here, with difficulty seeing shades of gray. (Hint: this type of thinking isn't considered healthy)

 

[klapauzius]

Yes, and a psychologist might be impressed at the "black and white" thinking that some have displayed here, with difficulty seeing shades of gray. (Hint: this type of thinking isn't considered healthy)

Yes, but is is nice and simple, so you can also run this classification scheme on less sophisticated or outdated hardware.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The rules of private property are not so grey. Common sense and respect is grey to very grey with many people. The ability of people to rationalize and justify is both creative and impressive. The sense of entitlement is also surprising with many EV owners as well. I think there is no grey with the two camps here, those that truly respect others and their property and those that do not or believe they do through justification. When do we get to decide or assume the intent of others or businesses when it is not made very clear? When it meets our needs, that's when. If there is doubt about this one would think that would suggest asking not invoking more rationalizing or justifying. They grey area is that we get to make our own choices.

 

[Nubo]

When do we get to decide or assume the intent of others or businesses when it is not made very clear?

Constantly. It's at the core of civilization. Fundamentalist approaches just can't cover the infinite nuances of human interaction, and usually turn out badly.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0[/youtube]

 

[Stoaty]

The rules of private property are not so grey. Common sense and respect is grey to very grey with many people. The ability of people to rationalize and justify is both creative and impressive. The sense of entitlement is also surprising with many EV owners as well.

Another black and white thinker. There are in fact many gray areas; this is one of them. A lot of us respect the business owners enough to know that if they want to impose a fee on an EVSE they can, and if they want to post that it is for customers only they can. It would take about 3 minutes to tape a hand lettered sign up if so desired. I don't see any sense of entitlement from any of the posters here, but I do see some very rigid, judgmental thinking displayed.

 

[klapauzius]

Another black and white thinker. There are in fact many gray areas; this is one of them. A lot of us respect the business owners enough to know that if they want to impose a fee on an EVSE they can, and if they want to post that it is for customers only they can. It would take about 3 minutes to tape a hand lettered sign up if so desired. I don't see any sense of entitlement from any of the posters here, but I do see some very rigid, judgmental thinking displayed.

+1

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The rules of private property are not so grey. Common sense and respect is grey to very grey with many people.

Sure seems to be to neighbors who assume my lawn is their personal dog toilet.

 

[Slow1]

I'm new to owning my EV - about 3 weeks into it. This thread caught my eye as I have wondered what the 'normal expectations' are around such things.

I didn't read all the posts, so this may well have been covered, but...

It seems to me anyone (business or individual) who installs an EVSE in a public area and puts signage up showing where it is can just as well put signs up stating it is for private use only. I would not violate this "private only" without permission. If there is a sign pointing out "EV Charging Station" and no additional info, I would assume this is an open invitation to use it. Unless there is anything indicating it is for customers only I don't think there is an obligation to frequent the business. Near my home there is a charging station near a business but it is actually sponsored by the electric utility, not the business - it is open and free to use. Happens to be on the chargepoint network so it does make it a bit more clear, but I don't feel required to go to any business in that parking lot (although frankly I have, I am a sucker for frozen yogurt.. but that is a different story). I don't feel 'entitled' to charge anywhere.

What gets me is the number of 120v plugs listed on plugshare in various places (like the mall). I wonder about those - if they are logged on plugshare does that mean the owner of the facility is putting them up for EV use or is it just "I happened to notice the plug there" by someone? What etiquette applies here anyway? My personal feeling is that I'd ask before using if possible - but I seriously doubt I'll ever plan to use a 120v plug somewhere so it would have to be some sort of emergency (poor planning on my part) leading to it...

 

[MikeinDenver]

I'm new to owning my EV - about 3 weeks into it. This thread caught my eye as I have wondered what the 'normal expectations' are around such things.

I didn't read all the posts, so this may well have been covered, but...

It seems to me anyone (business or individual) who installs an EVSE in a public area and puts signage up showing where it is can just as well put signs up stating it is for private use only. I would not violate this "private only" without permission. If there is a sign pointing out "EV Charging Station" and no additional info, I would assume this is an open invitation to use it. Unless there is anything indicating it is for customers only I don't think there is an obligation to frequent the business. Near my home there is a charging station near a business but it is actually sponsored by the electric utility, not the business - it is open and free to use. Happens to be on the chargepoint network so it does make it a bit more clear, but I don't feel required to go to any business in that parking lot (although frankly I have, I am a sucker for frozen yogurt.. but that is a different story). I don't feel 'entitled' to charge anywhere.

What gets me is the number of 120v plugs listed on plugshare in various places (like the mall). I wonder about those - if they are logged on plugshare does that mean the owner of the facility is putting them up for EV use or is it just "I happened to notice the plug there" by someone? What etiquette applies here anyway? My personal feeling is that I'd ask before using if possible - but I seriously doubt I'll ever plan to use a 120v plug somewhere so it would have to be some sort of emergency (poor planning on my part) leading to it...

I agree with your first paragraph. As for the plugshare thing I think a lot of people put random 120v sockets they just happen to see. I don't even bother with these. I doubt the business or whatever is putting them on there. Many will say I didn't even try it just saw it. Not my cup of tea and far too slow. I filter out 120v outlets as a general rule and would only look for one as an ultimate last resort. I would rather use one at a private residence that I have texted with or called prior to than try to use one at a mall or whatever.

 

[johnrhansen]

Here is a problem. I take it anyone can post anywhere on plug share whether it's their plug or not, am I correct? I have posted my own evse, but I have been reluctant to enter one outside my control without the owner's permission unless it's obviously a public charger. Why? Because people like us see it and assume it's ok to charge there. We have talked that subject into the ground. Here's something else to discuss: if you find a place to charge like a rv park, do you post it? Do you tell the owner about plugshare and suggest they post their spot? (Never happens), or do you ask permission to post it and post it yourself, or do you just post it? Shouldn't plugshare keep track of who posts what and make you check a box saying you are the owner or have permission from the owner, and the plug is available free for public use unless signed or stated otherwise? That would remove all doubt.

 

[MikeinDenver]

Here is a problem. I take it anyone can post anywhere on plug share whether it's their plug or not, am I correct? I have posted my own evse, but I have been reluctant to enter one outside my control without the owner's permission unless it's obviously a public charger. Why? Because people like us see it and assume it's ok to charge there. We have talked that subject into the ground. Here's something else to discuss: if you find a place to charge like a rv park, do you post it? Do you tell the owner about plugshare and suggest they post their spot? (Never happens), or do you ask permission to post it and post it yourself, or do you just post it? Shouldn't plugshare keep track of who posts what and make you check a box saying you are the owner or have permission from the owner, and the plug is available free for public use unless signed or stated otherwise? That would remove all doubt.

I have never entered a 120v only updated L2 ones that already exist and added my own information. I have not had the pleasure of being the first to any L2. I think you could enter fake information but that can be removed. I have seen RV parks on there with listed prices and some not. If it is an RV park I would make sure to call ahead and setup the specifics. I personally would not post any random 120v I found in a business parking lot unless I specifically talked to the owner and confirmed it was ok. But the likelihood of me even asking is about 0. But a 240v source you could plug in to is probably a business and as such I would post it if I used it and confirmed availability to charge with the business. I understand what you are saying though. There are two McDonalds locations with 14-50 plugs in their trash enclosure that are posted on the route South from here. I am a little skeptical of being able to just use them so I posted a question in the comments but no one has responded. Someone did update with pics showing the connection in the trash enclosure recently. Others may view this as an invitation. I personally would only use something like that as a last resort and definitely purchase something.

I understand your thought on the verification part but what is there for plugshare to verify? Someone can just check a box. I doubt plugshare would go through any legal trouble to obtain the ip and identity of someone posting fraudulently. They would just remove the location. I could see any actual verification process as being a burden on adding as many sites as possible. I think it is really up to us users to police these things.