Nissan USA should offer SAE Combo plug

[braineo]

the contest is over.

Who won, smoke and mirrors or the one with 1000's of installed units around the world?

Forfeit due to no show?

 

[smkettner]

Well here's the news boys, SAE chose its own standard as the standard. They didn't choose Chademo, they chose their standard. Done, period, no backsies. Nissan may stay with Chademo or go with the SAE design. But SAE ain't buying what Nissan was selling and there is no going back now. Get over it and move on.

You speak as if you believe SAE is an independent group that evaluated several designs.
On the contrary I believe the SAE decision was controlled by GM to hinder competition.
Fortunately at this point in time it would appear that it may have worked against GM and the other cronies.

 

[scottf200]

I learned quite a bit in the last two days on this forum so thank you to those that helped.

The LEAF has a Chademo so the responses are what you would expect. An ironic twist is the LEAF battery is degrading faster than expected because it has no TMS to speak of. Chademo charging heats up the battery more and degrades it faster ... I predict this to be a PR problem (I'm the only one that thinks this AFAIK tho). There is a lot of conspiracy theories and finger pointing as you have read. Someone did start a technical comparison thread a year or so ago but it only went so for with limited information. I tried a couple of google site keyword searches but did not find it.

Personally I don't have a car with either DC chargers and Chicagoland has a disaster for them (chademo) anyway. I do think good standards help all and in the long run will help EV sales/acceptance but many with range anxiety. I'm waiting for a Tesla Model X where I'll charge at home @ 40A or at the superchargers if I need to (Bloomington, IL works for me). Bottom line is this is an interesting hobby (following EV topics) and it is nice to feel like you are part of an overall solution (drive on battery/grid power) to something worthwhile.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I had trouble w/Googling for it. I had to resort to Bing. It seems like neither search engine indexes this site all that well. I wonder if the admins/mods can fix that...

I think you're talking about http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[scottf200]

Thanks Tony. It would be better with verified sources. I formatted this so it lined up better.

Here's the Cliff Notes for the western world's DC chargers:

---------------CDeMO----FRKNPLG---MNKES----TESLAusa---TESLAeu---TESLAfareast
Design Power   100kW    100kW*     100kW    120kW      120kW?    90kW?
Max V/Amps     500/200  500~/200  500/200  400/300    400/300?  400/225?
Typical Power  400/125  400/125   400/125  400/300    400/300?  400/225?
Comm Protocol  CAN      PLC       PLC      PLC        PLC       PLC/CAN
Plug Protocol  CDeMO    FRKNPLG   MNKES    TESLA      MNKES+    CDeMO+

* Symposium for electric vehicles (EVS 26) - https://www.google.com/search?q=EVS+26+"combined+charging+system"+"100+kW"
~ http://www.sae.org/standardsdev/news/P122015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; & http://mydocs.epri.com/docs/publicmeetingmaterials/1203/JKN2SD37ZWH/D2_PEV_Presentations_Combined.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^^^
I had trouble w/Googling for it. I had to resort to Bing. It seems like neither search engine indexes this site all that well. I wonder if the admins/mods can fix that...
I think you're talking about http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Hats off to you for finding that. You/your post are the master of links.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
IIRC, China also has its own DC fast charging standard that's compatible w/nothing else. The company BYD comes to mind...

Heh. I Binged for site:mynissanleaf.com technical j1772 advantages.

Back to my earlier point, maybe the mods/admin can use tools/hints at http://www.google.com/webmasters/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to get Google to crawl/index this site better? I don't know anything about this stuff.

 

[walterbays]

Thought experiment.

Boeing announces plans to enter the car market, showing a concept car at the LA Auto Show. Rumors are they will sell limited quantities in Washington and California in 2014, with nationwide availability to follow. One feature of the Boeing car is a new gas filler system which equals the performance of conventional fillers in refueling speed and in preventing vapor release, but is much cheaper to manufacture. It requires a new gas pump nozzle, and Boeing persuaded SAE to standardize the new improved nozzle. ABB designs a gas pump with dual nozzles and begins selling it in Europe with U.S. sales expected to begin in 2015. Boeing expects that by 2020 all new cars sold will be equipped to use the new SAE nozzle, and lobbies the government to prohibit any new installation of old non-standard gas nozzles so that motorists will have the convenience of knowing all gas stations will be equipped with (SAE) standard nozzles.

Does that all sound okay?

 

[cwerdna]

fastcharge

EVGO has 23 chargers in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and 17 chargers in the Houston area which are all CHAdeMo plus Level 2 chargers together. If you install a SAE charger in San Marcos you may not have much business. There may be other DC chargers but I am not aware of any in Texas.

Tesla will put a whole bunch in Texas.

Yep. Tesla shows some Superchargers coming to TX at http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

As for simpleleaf's earlier point, yep. How many Frankenplug players will actually sell/lease ANY BEVs/PHEVs w/Frankenplug inlet in TX? See earlier points re: CA ZEV compliance.

If OP is truly interested and not a troll/astroturfer, he should refer to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6853" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; re: CA ZEV compliance mandates... TX isn't a CARB emission state and I find it highly unlikely they'd adopt such rules or anything similar in the near future.

 

[TonyWilliams]

If OP is truly interested and not a troll/astroturfer, he should refer to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6853" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; re: CA ZEV compliance mandates... TX isn't a CARB emission state and I find it highly unlikely they'd adopt such rules or anything similar in the near future.

Maybe this piece that I just wrote is better:

http://www.plugincars.com/will-toyota-cancel-rav4-ev-compliance-car.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GregH]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 28, 2001

CARB Amends ZEV Rule: Standardizes Chargers & Addresses Automaker Mergers

SACRAMENTO - The California Environmental Protection Agency's Air Resources Board (ARB) today amended its Zero Emission Vehicle rule by standardizing electric vehicle charging equipment.

Alan Lloyd, ARB Chairman said, "The move to standardize is an essential step in the growth of EV technology and is needed to provide certainty to the public and manufacturers...

After public testimony from ARB staff, auto manufacturers and others, the ARB approved the staff proposal to select the conductive charging system used by Ford, Honda and several other manufacturers, starting in 2006. As a result of this action, existing inductive chargers used for General Motors, Toyota and Nissan vehicles will continue to be operated and maintained, but probably will not be expanded.

The final nail in the EV1 coffin. I was at those hearings.
P.S. Anyone want to buy a portablized large paddle inductive charger? real cheap...

 

[GregH]

I don't understand all the fuss. All the cars now and in the foreseeable future use Chademo. There will be a need for Chademo chargers for at least the next decade. If you want to provide DCQC, install Chademo. If you're worried that years from now some other standard may gain some ground, leave space on your site for a 2nd charger. In 5 years you can decide if you want to populate it with a Frankenplug, or a 2nd Chademo.

IIRC, China also has its own DC fast charging standard that's compatible w/nothing else. The company BYD comes to mind...

Any info on the Chinese standard?

And while we're discussing DCQC standards, I'd be curious to know.. If you had the option of

A: A vehicle with 1-10kW onboard AC charging AND a DCQC port (combined or separate, that's not my point)
or
B: A vehicle with 1-20kW onboard AC charging only.

(I realize the Tesla model S is both.. ) but if you had to choose...

Would being able to draw 50-100A AC be more practical than having to go to dedicated DCQC locations?
Which do you think would be more readily available in two years, 50A-100A EVSEs/sockets or dedicated DCQC locations?
Conceivably you could charger faster at HOME with option B, but... so what?

People I work with would be very interested to know. (Sorry for being slightly OT)

 

[smkettner]

And while we're discussing DCQC standards, I'd be curious to know.. If you had the option of

A: A vehicle with 1-10kW onboard AC charging AND a DCQC port (combined or separate, that's not my point)
or
B: A vehicle with 1-20kW onboard AC charging only.

I will continue to pass on DCQC for a smallish battery like the LEAF.

For a large battery vehicle (tesla) I would go with option A.
In fact 5kW would be enough AC charging IMO.

 

[TomT]

I'd choose A regardless. One consideration is how many public chargers there are that are capable of more than 10Kw, and the answer is very few.

A: A vehicle with 1-10kW onboard AC charging AND a DCQC port (combined or separate, that's not my point)
or
B: A vehicle with 1-20kW onboard AC charging only.

 

[TonyWilliams]

A: A vehicle with 1-10kW onboard AC charging AND a DCQC port (combined or separate, that's not my point)

I choose "A" since I already have a 10kW charger. When can I pick it up?

I doubt more than 50amp sockets will be available for a LOOOOOooooong time. But, there's always hope that 3 phase power might catch on, so I'd leave that option open.

1) Both a 50 amp circuit/40 amp split phase charger = 10kW (@250v)

2) And a 50 amp circuit/40 amp three phase = 33kW (@480v) or 14.4kW (@208v) NOTE: I'm just guess that 50 amp three phase could be normal in the USA... I would strongly advise that is be compatible with the VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 standard - this "Mennekes" connector specifies up to 63A three-phase (at 400V in Central Europe) which makes for a maximum of 43.6 kW (63 amps at 400v multiplied by the square root of 3).

3) CHAdeMO

 

[mbender]

Great thread, love the debate and educated opinions and links.

Here are a few thoughts that arose while reading through it. Hopefully they will be a welcome diversion for anyone taking things too seriously:

And yet we all seemed to survive.

Except the first electric-chair 'victim', and that poor elephant (Topsy)... :-(

Re the whole standards debate and history:

I'm just glad we had our act(s) more together when we agreed to a uniform rail gauge. (Unlike Australia!)

"I had to resort to Bing"

Oh no, let's not start that argument! ;-)

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Does it have to be one or the other? All the CHAdeMO would still be usable as long as cars have ports for them. So, what if Combos do ever get installed? That won't happen unless there are lots of cars that can use them, and that'll mean more choice for us. So, then there's both types available, and the Leaf hatch is so big it could probably accomodate a CHAdeMO and a Combo side by each, giving Leaf an advantage.

 

[fastcharge]

For anyone interested in the J1772 Combo standard, SAE has put together a webinar (I just took the course).
http://training.sae.org/webrecordings/pd331046on/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can also download the J1772 standard (93 pages) here:
http://standards.sae.org/j1772_201001/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not cheap but good info directly from the source. If anyone has links like that for a course on CHAdeMO, I would be interested. I haven't looked yet.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... the Leaf hatch is so big it could probably accomodate a CHAdeMO and a Combo side by each, giving Leaf an advantage.

I suggested that a long time ago. A bit like the Tesla concept. LEAF can use all the CHAdeMO and the Frankenplug, but Frankenplug cars are stuck with just the few Frankenplug stations.

If "all the others" that are producing lots of EVs (ya, I'll hold my breath with the German and USA car manufacturers) that all use Frankenplug, and nothing else, then a LEAF with both would be in an absolutely fantastic position.

I can see Nissan doing this, but the USA/German car guys... no way with a dual CHAdeMO / Frankenplug, since they are playing economic warfare.

Would just love to be charging on a Frankenplug station with a LEAF or other CHAdeMO car when a eGolf or other CARB limited production car strolls up for a charge.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Not cheap but good info directly from the source. If anyone has links like that for a course on CHAdeMO, I would be interested. I haven't looked yet.

You can get a serious engineer type document from CHAdeMO for about $60.

 

[TonyWilliams]

BMW was my only hope for a Frankenplug savior in the USA. Well, it looks like I was right. Frankenplug is DEAD ON ARRIVAL if nobody will pick up the torch and run with it. It looks like the BMW i3 might have been a strict CARB-ZEV compliance car after all, which means that they aren't going to spend Frankenbucks on Frankenplugs:

Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA) board member Steve Jurvetson spoke with FOX Business Network’s (FBN) Melissa Francis about the future of Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA). Jurvetson said, On whether Tesla investor’s should be worried about the new BMW electric car that is coming out next year:

“Well, both Elon and I burst into laughter with the questions just because Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (FRA:BMW) itself said – and I’ve never heard any product release say this a year before its release – we’re not trying to make the best electric car; we’re building this vehicle because we have to for regulatory reasons. They’re basically they’re saying don’t judge us by this car and whether it’s any good or not a year before it’s released. It’s totally a different kind of product. It doesn’t have very good range; and they’re putting in a gasoline lawnmower engine in there as a backup. It’s kind of an odd duck.”

Tags: BMW, Electric car, FBN, Fox Business, hybrid car, Steve Jurvetson, Tesla

This entry was posted on August 21, 2013 at 4:24 pm and is filed under Business.

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