Nissan USA should offer SAE Combo plug

[fastcharge]

So if you want to put in a multi-port charger (CHAdeMO and SAE Combo), do they actually exist and what do they cost?

I see this one from ABB (sorry I don't know how to make the linked image smaller), but is says it is not for US.

 

[TonyWilliams]

They don't exist for the USA power grid voltages nor are they UL listed. When one does become available, the cost will be bizarro high. We had the same problem when CHAdeMO started, and now you can buy one for $15k.

In case it's not sinking in, Frankenplug is so far behind, it's is breathtaking!! Which is yet ANOTHER reason I don't want my tax money wasted on it.

 

[Nubo]

So if you want to put in a multi-port charger (CHAdeMO and SAE Combo), do they actually exist and what do they cost?

I see this one from ABB (sorry I don't know how to make the linked image smaller), but is says it is not for US.

Difficult enough to get QC infrastructure deployed. Not sure site managers are going to be attracted by the added complexity, maintenance and expense of a dual-standard unit. Copper thieves would love it though. :lol:

 

[lion]

Honestly all this fretting and hand-wringing over a plug! My plug is better than your plug....! Don't switch to X plug or my car will be rendered worthless, boo-hoo.... (Don't worry, it will be worthless because of battery degredation, not a plug....)

When electricity was introduced, original wall outlets looked like light sockets (female) and plugs (male) on lamps and appliances were screwed in like lightbulbs. The U.S. two-pronged, flat blade outlet standard was eventually introduced as the standard. Then, much later, the three pronged grounded outlet standard was introduced. Homes were adapted with time.

Things evolve, things adjust, and improve. This is ground-floor EV tech here. Everyone should be smart enough to know that things will change, and likely rapidly so. We survived the switch to Unleaded gas without catastrophe (remember that...), we can survive a potential change in a plug....

If Nissan thinks it is best to adapt to the SAE plug, who cares! So what! It's a plug! Or, vice versa if they stay with Chademo while everyone else goes with SAE, well OK too.

There will be adaptors developed or L3s will have both style plugs, at least for the near future. I think companies are smart enough to get there are a lot more Chademo EVs out there, for now, than SAEs. Nissan will not leave thousands of Leaf owners stranded without a fix, I'm sure (I hope). They would ruin their whole EV project if they did.

The fear old Leafs' will be left in the dust with a plug as obsolete as a parallel printer port on a computer is simply speculating, making a mountain over a mole hill. Whatever happens, I have some faith that Nissan will not leave current Leaf owners without help. If Tesla can devise adaptors for its plugs, then I assume Nissan has the brains to develop a Chademo to SAE adaptor as well.

I hope.

I think more people are concerned about the damage this fighting is doing to the growth & acceptance of EVs. Most of us don't care what tech wins, we just want it to be available everywhere, yesterday if possible.

 

[TonyWilliams]

ABB is a big company, but to my knowledge, they don't have a single charger in the USA.

 

[fastcharge]

Difficult enough to get QC infrastructure deployed. Not sure site managers are going to be attracted by the added complexity, maintenance and expense of a dual-standard unit.

I agree. No one wants to offer multiple types but I also can't imagine only putting in CHAdeMO in the US at this point knowing that basically only Nissan (and maybe Tesla/Toyota Rav 4) will use it. That is a pretty limited market share. It is the majority of the market right now but I am thinking a few years down the road when Ford, GM, BMW and others have products on the road.

 

[fastcharge]

I think more people are concerned about the damage this fighting is doing to the growth & acceptance of EVs. Most of us don't care what tech wins, we just want it to be available everywhere, yesterday if possible.

Exactly. That is how I should have started this thread.

 

[mikeEmike]

When electricity was introduced, original wall outlets looked like light sockets (female) and plugs (male) on lamps and appliances were screwed in like lightbulbs. The U.S. two-pronged, flat blade outlet standard was eventually introduced as the standard. Then, much later, the three pronged grounded outlet standard was introduced. Homes were adapted with time.

When electricity was introduced into homes, there wasn't even an agreement on whether AC or DC power should be used, let alone plugs and outlets. :lol:

The three prong grounded outlet was made backwards compatible with two prong plugs, so if you bought a lamp with a two prong plug, you could plug it into a three prong grounded outlet, and it would work just fine. Unfortunately, that's not the case for CHAdeMO and SAE Combo plugs and outlets. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Difficult enough to get QC infrastructure deployed. Not sure site managers are going to be attracted by the added complexity, maintenance and expense of a dual-standard unit.

I agree. No one wants to offer multiple types but I also can't imagine only putting in CHAdeMO in the US at this point knowing that basically only Nissan (and maybe Tesla/Toyota Rav 4) will use it. That is a pretty limited market share. It is the majority of the market right now but I am thinking a few years down the road when Ford, GM, BMW and others have products on the road.

Yes, you are thinking exactly as GM and the Frankenplug consortium bloc would hope; "Don't do anything rash like INSTALL a CHAdeMO charger since there's a new sheriff in town!!!". The Toyota Rav4 EV does NOT use any DC charger, as few compliance cars do, like GM Spark EV (so far), Ford Focus, Fiat/Chrysler 500e, Toyota Rav4 EV and Honda Fit EV. The Nissan LEAF is also a compliance car, but the ONLY one to actually sell the car everywhere and offer a DC charge port (for three years). Like Tesla, they are in it to win it.

Here are those "other" CHAdeMO folks besides Nissan (and the 8 or 9 Frankenplug consortium bloc):

Honda/Accura, Toyota/Lexus, Mazda, Nissan/Infinity, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Zero Motorcycles, Hyundai/Kia, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Subaru (plus tons of others less relevant in the US, like Peugeot Citroën, Isuzu, Daihatsu, Micro-vett, Hyosung, BYD, Tata etc -- and that's just vehicle manufacturers)."

The Frankenplug consortium wouldn't be bringing ANY cars to market without CARB-ZEV mandates, and virtually all of the 8 or 9 members will do the minimum for California. Only BMW has any expectation of something beyond the minimum.

 

[Berlino]

Yes, you are thinking exactly as GM and the Frankenplug consortium bloc would hope; "Don't do anything rash like INSTALL a CHAdeMO charger since there's a new sheriff in town!!!".

Their strategy is working, at least in Eastern Canada. In Quebec there's a solitary CHAdeMO, but its use has been cut off from the general public.

240 km separate Montreal (metro population 3,824,000) and Quebec City (metro 765,000). There are plans to install L3's along the highways connectiing the two cities, but reportedly the project is being delayed because of the "need" to install dual-standard chargers.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here's another way to think of things; all the following manufacturers WILL build some ZEV car (electric or hydrogen):

Manufacturers Subject to the CARB-ZEV Requirements for 2015 and beyond (in bold letters are the current Very Large Manufacturers subject now to CARB-ZEV):

BMW, Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and Volkswagen must comply with the new requirements. Four additional manufacturers would also be required to comply with the ZEV requirements, but would be allowed to meet their obligation with PHEVs.

New ZEV Requirements:

The 2012 amendments increase requirements which push ZEVs and PHEVs to over 15-percent of new vehicle sales by 2025. This will ensure ZEV volumes are at a level sufficient to reduce incremental ZEV costs and reach commercialization.

So, given that info,

Future Frankenplug versus CHAdeMO manufacturers, only two of the additional manufacturers added to California Air Resources Board (CARB) Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) are on the Frankenplug list; VW and Daimler. VW has already announced that they will make CHAdeMO capable cars for Japan. Daimler (Mercedes Benz) may ultimately go with Tesla Superchargers, but both have announced extremely low production vehicles that will be used primarily for CARB-ZEV compliance. The rest of the new manufacturers added to the CARB-ZEV to begin in 2015 are all CHAdeMO members.

CHAdeMO members for CARB-ZEV - Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Nissan, Toyota

Frankenplug members for CARB-ZEV - BMW, Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Mercedes and Volkswagen

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, you are thinking exactly as GM and the Frankenplug consortium bloc would hope; "Don't do anything rash like INSTALL a CHAdeMO charger since there's a new sheriff in town!!!".

Their strategy is working, at least in Eastern Canada. In Quebec there's a solitary CHAdeMO, but its use has been cut off from the general public.

240 km separate Montreal (metro population 3,824,000) and Quebec City (metro 765,000). There are plans to install L3's along the highways connectiing the two cities, but reportedly the project is being delayed because of the "need" to install dual-standard chargers.

I expect ANYTHING even close to Detroit will get Frankenplugs.

 

[fastcharge]

I expect ANYTHING even close to Detroit will get Frankenplugs.

Of course they will. They have all said they support the SAE Combo plug. Basically what I have learned is that about half of the car companies will use CHAdeMO and half will use SAE Combo and no one is going to change anybody's mind on it. Blame it on whoever you want, it is still bad for EV's in general.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I expect ANYTHING even close to Detroit will get Frankenplugs.

Of course they will. They have all said they support the SAE Combo plug. Basically what I have learned is that about half of the car companies will use CHAdeMO and half will use SAE Combo and no one is going to change anybody's mind on it. Blame it on whoever you want, it is still bad for EV's in general.

I'm not suggesting the Detroit area (which extends to parts makers in Canada where the poster is) will get Frankenplug because 8 or 9 mostly German car makers will use Frankenplug. I'm suggesting that because of the Detroit mindset that their car companies are the center or the universe, and "those fur-r-ner cars" aren't. In other words, the home town will support whatever the home team does.

You also missed, again, the point of me listing the CARB-ZEV list. Those are the companies REQUIRED to do something for California... some will use hydrogen, by the way, and not use any battery electriic cars.

So, AGAIN, the number of manufacturers supporting CHAdeMO are pretty much EVERY SIGNIFICANT CAR MANUFACTURER IN THE WORLD that makes EV's except the Frankenplug consortium bloc members:


Honda/Accura, Toyota/Lexus, Mazda, Nissan/Infinity, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Zero Motorcycles, Hyundai/Kia, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Subaru (plus tons of others less relevant in the US, like Peugeot Citroën, Isuzu, Daihatsu, Micro-vett, Hyosung, BYD, Tata etc -- and that's just vehicle manufacturers)."


The Frankenplug consortium wouldn't be bringing ANY cars to market without CARB-ZEV mandates, and virtually all of the 8 or 9 members will do the minimum for California. Only BMW has any expectation of something beyond the minimum.

 

[fastcharge]

The Frankenplug consortium wouldn't be bringing ANY cars to market without CARB-ZEV mandates, and virtually all of the 8 or 9 members will do the minimum for California. Only BMW has any expectation of something beyond the minimum.

I disagree. They all have to hit 54.5 MPG by 2025. That is hard to do without some sort of electrification.

 

[davewill]

The Frankenplug consortium wouldn't be bringing ANY cars to market without CARB-ZEV mandates, and virtually all of the 8 or 9 members will do the minimum for California. Only BMW has any expectation of something beyond the minimum.

I disagree. They all have to hit 54.5 MPG by 2025. That is hard to do without some sort of electrification.

Unless they manage to lobby some or all of that away before then. I have to agree with Tony. Without the mandate, these companies would not by doing battery-only electrics...and if the legislative climate changes they will drop them like a hot potato. The Volt might still have been built, but it's NOT a ZEV, and it won't ever have DC charging.

 

[hyperlexis]

When electricity was introduced, original wall outlets looked like light sockets (female) and plugs (male) on lamps and appliances were screwed in like lightbulbs. The U.S. two-pronged, flat blade outlet standard was eventually introduced as the standard. Then, much later, the three pronged grounded outlet standard was introduced. Homes were adapted with time.

When electricity was introduced into homes, there wasn't even an agreement on whether AC or DC power should be used, let alone plugs and outlets. :lol:

The three prong grounded outlet was made backwards compatible with two prong plugs, so if you bought a lamp with a two prong plug, you could plug it into a three prong grounded outlet, and it would work just fine. Unfortunately, that's not the case for CHAdeMO and SAE Combo plugs and outlets. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yes! That's right -- it was the Edison D.C. standard vs. the Westinghouse A.C. standard! What a war those two men fought! One could liken it to today's fight over the SAE standard. Alas, while DC was arguably better, Westinghouse's muscle won the day. Edison even devised an electric chair to kill criminals just to show to the public how 'dangerous' A.C. was!

All the while the lighting gas companies kept pushing on, stating how electricity was dangerous, even fitting homes with dual-fuel electric-gas lamps (because electricity was so 'unreliable,' lol).

And yet we all seemed to survive.

SAE is a very powerful force in the U.S. It may, like Westinghouse, in fact win the day on that basis alone. Especially with GM and Ford behind it. And everyone, regardless, will survive just fine.

Now let's get those adapter plugs up and running already....

 

[jackal]

The Frankenplug consortium wouldn't be bringing ANY cars to market without CARB-ZEV mandates, and virtually all of the 8 or 9 members will do the minimum for California. Only BMW has any expectation of something beyond the minimum.

I disagree. They all have to hit 54.5 MPG by 2025. That is hard to do without some sort of electrification.

Unless they manage to lobby some or all of that away before then. I have to agree with Tony. Without the mandate, these companies would not by doing battery-only electrics...and if the legislative climate changes they will drop them like a hot potato. The Volt might still have been built, but it's NOT a ZEV, and it won't ever have DC charging.

+1

Not sure what @fastcharge sees in FP. (0 vs 1000s of Chademo)

 

[Deleted member 9549]

+1

Not sure what @fastcharge sees in FP. (0 vs 1000s of Chademo)

+1

 

[TonyWilliams]

The Frankenplug consortium wouldn't be bringing ANY cars to market without CARB-ZEV mandates, and virtually all of the 8 or 9 members will do the minimum for California. Only BMW has any expectation of something beyond the minimum.

I disagree. They all have to hit 54.5 MPG by 2025. That is hard to do without some sort of electrification.

Well, you're sure helping me make my point. They will electrify the fleet, but it won't require DC charging when there's an oil burning engining under the hood. Plus, that is eleven years away.

When I think back to cars over an eleven year periods in the past, a lot can and will change (including the rule). I'm talking about the next 5 years max.

I expect 10,000 CHAdeMO stations with 500,000 cars. Frankenplug, eh, not quite as many :shock: