Nissan USA should offer SAE Combo plug

[mikeEmike]

Yes! That's right -- it was the Edison D.C. standard vs. the Westinghouse A.C. standard! What a war those two men fought! One could liken it to today's fight over the SAE standard. Alas, while DC was arguably better, Westinghouse's muscle won the day. Edison even devised an electric chair to kill criminals just to show to the public how 'dangerous' A.C. was!

Not one of Edison's finer moments when he created the electric chair. The general population didn't understand what AC or DC was. They just saw that electricity was deadly.

And yet we all seemed to survive.

We also seem to survive with inches instead of centimeters here, but that certainly doesn't make the world a better place (or outer space, as NASA found out the hard way). :roll:

 

[fastcharge]

Well, you're sure helping me make my point. They will electrify the fleet, but it won't require DC charging when there's an oil burning engining under the hood.

That is a pretty big assumption. Isn't BMW offering the i3 with DC charge and range extending engine?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well, you're sure helping me make my point. They will electrify the fleet, but it won't require DC charging when there's an oil burning engining under the hood.

That is a pretty big assumption. Isn't BMW offering the i3 with DC charge and range extending engine?

By and large, none of the car company (except the very few, BMW, Nissan, Renault and Tesla) have any real interest in electric cars. You don't have to take my word for it; just look around you. In my 5 year window, of the Franken-Few, only BMW has a serious program, and I just don't imagine folks who devised the Frankenplug and why, who collective (very recently) tried to stop CARB through EPA, who tried to stop California from implementing charge stations (GM)... just aren't going to jump on board until its cheaper and makes them more money than oil. Even then, there will be corporate stooge-ness that some will drag behind. Change is hard.

My guess is that batteries will be far more expensive than equivalent oil burner parts well past 2025 (making no consideration for oil prices, since auto manufacturers don't pay that), which means that they will largely stick to what they know (oil) and what makes them money (oil) and make just enough concessions to meet the EPA mandates, just like they do with CARB-ZEV mandates.

Yes, BMW and GM both intend to have a Frankenplug here. So will VW and Daimler later. All in minimum numbers except BMW, which doesn't seem to have hit the i3 out of the park.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes! That's right -- it was the Edison D.C. standard vs. the Westinghouse A.C. standard! What a war those two men fought! One could liken it to today's fight over the SAE standard.... dual-fuel electric-gas lamps (because electricity was so 'unreliable,' lol).

Perfect example of why dual stations are silly... we don't need them. Just stick to the existing world wide de facto standard, problems all solved.

You might not be aware why we have 60hz electricity and the rest of the world is 50hz (as we were then). Another standard war, and we got left as the lone man standing. If it wasn't for us being the world economic leader, it might have not ended well.

GM didn't invent this game that they're playing.

SAE is a very powerful force in the U.S. It may, like Westinghouse, in fact win the day on that basis alone. Especially with GM and Ford behind it.

In your part of the world, I'm sure they are. They're not having a lot of pull out here on the west coast. By the way, Ford and Chrysler/Fiat could give a crap about Frankenplug. GM is the champion here.

 

[evnow]

Companies that have agreed to SAE Combo Plug:
Ford
GM
Chrysler
Audi
BMW
Daimler
Porsche
VW

Nonsense.

Let all these "companies that have agreed to SAE Combo Plug" first offer EVs with the Frankenplug. Let them create an infrastructure. Then, and only then, should we talk about Nissan offering one.

 

[fastcharge]

Can you guys point me to a good forum post or external link that discusses the technical advantages/disadvantages between the two plugs?

 

[evnow]

Can you guys point me to a good forum post or external link that discusses the technical advantages/disadvantages between the two plugs?

Technical advantages/disadvantages don't matter.

You need to ask - what was the intent behind Frankenplug. Was it to come up with something technically superior or was it done to confuse the market and slow down EV adoption ?

 

[mwalsh]

You need to ask - what was the intent behind Frankenplug. Was it to come up with something technically superior or was it done to confuse the market and slow down EV adoption ?

The second thing! The second thing!

 

[fastcharge]

Can you guys point me to a good forum post or external link that discusses the technical advantages/disadvantages between the two plugs?

Technical advantages/disadvantages don't matter.

You need to ask - what was the intent behind Frankenplug. Was it to come up with something technically superior or was it done to confuse the market and slow down EV adoption ?

I'm an engineer. I like specs and don't really care about the politics involved.

 

[Nubo]

I'm an engineer. I like specs and don't really care about the politics involved.

This is getting annoying. An engineer who has to be spoon-fed? Come on, man. You were the one proclaiming Nissan should offer the combo plug. And after all this discussion we learn you don't even know the specs? I think you're just here to poke the hornet's nest.

 

[fastcharge]

This is getting annoying. An engineer who has to be spoon-fed? Come on, man. You were the one proclaiming Nissan should offer the combo plug. And after all this discussion we learn you don't even know the specs? I think you're just here to poke the hornet's nest.

Some of you guys are to high strung. I didn't realize this was a hornets nest when I originally posted. I have read most of the same limited articles that you guys have about the different plugs. I know the different volt and amp ratings between the two. I know physically how they look and from this forum I know all of the different manufacturers and which standard they are using. What I don't have is a good side by side comparison of the communication protocol, physical dimensions and so on. Sure I can google all of it and make my own document and I guess that is what I will do. I just thought since you guys have apparently been having this argument for years that maybe someone had a good link handy.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here's the Cliff Notes for the western world's DC chargers:

---------------CDeMO----FRKNPLG---MNKES---TESLAusa---TESLAeu---TESLAfareast
Design Power ----100kW-----90kW----100kW----120kW----120kW?----90kW?
Max V/Amps ----500/200---450/200--500/200---400/300--400/300?---400/225?
Typical Power --- 400/125---400/125--400/125---400/300--400/300?---400/225?
Comm Protocol----CAN-------PLC-------PLC-------PLC-------PLC-------PLC/CAN
Plug Protocol-----CDeMO----FRKNPLG---MNKES----TESLA-----MNKES+----CDeMO+

 

[TonyWilliams]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 28, 2001

CARB Amends ZEV Rule: Standardizes Chargers & Addresses Automaker Mergers

SACRAMENTO - The California Environmental Protection Agency's Air Resources Board (ARB) today amended its Zero Emission Vehicle rule by standardizing electric vehicle charging equipment.

Alan Lloyd, ARB Chairman said, "The move to standardize is an essential step in the growth of EV technology and is needed to provide certainty to the public and manufacturers...

After public testimony from ARB staff, auto manufacturers and others, the ARB approved the staff proposal to select the conductive charging system used by Ford, Honda and several other manufacturers, starting in 2006. As a result of this action, existing inductive chargers used for General Motors, Toyota and Nissan vehicles will continue to be operated and maintained, but probably will not be expanded.

 

[simpleleaf]

fastcharge

EVGO has 23 chargers in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and 17 chargers in the Houston area which are all CHAdeMo plus Level 2 chargers together. If you install a SAE charger in San Marcos you may not have much business. There may be other DC chargers but I am not aware of any in Texas.

 

[TonyWilliams]

fastcharge

EVGO has 23 chargers in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and 17 chargers in the Houston area which are all CHAdeMo plus Level 2 chargers together. If you install a SAE charger in San Marcos you may not have much business. There may be other DC chargers but I am not aware of any in Texas.

Tesla will put a whole bunch in Texas.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Repost from BMW i3 thread:

As George said, I spoke to a few BMW product and program managers about the REx. I also spoke to a charging and infrastructure engineer about the choice to go with CCS. I just wish I got his card because he was a walking encyclopedia on DC quick charge. He rattled off half a dozen reasons why CCS is technically superior to ChAdeMO,(Tony alert!) mostly related to future applications though.

Sony had a lot of reasons why Betamax was better, too. And, it no doubt was. We know how that ended (and it wasn't because they were late to market). Yes, the German automakers are being taken care of quite nicely by their government for the German version of the Frankenplug. I doubt they will be as keen to spend the same kind of money elsewhere in Europe with already 900 CHAdeMO stations (or even if there wasn't any other chargers!). Which also means the majority of Europe will remain "open range" for CHAdeMO, Tesla/Mennekes and Chameleon to expand.

It's just another example of the same thing GM is doing here, except GM doesn't (yet) have the government support or money. Hence, Frankenplug USA, D.O.A. in my book.

He did recognize the dearth of CCS stations in the US will definitely be an issue for a while but said that won't be the case in Europe as there are concrete plans to roll out the infrastructure there.

Recognizes the issue, great. What are they going to do about it here? I personally have little concern for what German car makers are going to do in Germany.

BMW expects the range extender option to be chosen by the vast majority of buyers(up to 80% or so) so the DC quick charge option will probably not.

Exactly what I thought that they thought! Awesome news for CHAdeMO in the USA, because if there are few BMW's with Frankenplug, and not very many Spark EV's at all, and the assorted other compliance VW and Daimler products with teeny tiny production, I AM PUMPED !!! The DC infrastructure can continue here without being a Betamax/VHS issue.

 

[evnow]

I'm an engineer. I like specs and don't really care about the politics involved.

I'm also an engineer - but I don't live in the specs world. I don't care about Engineering without a social purpose.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm an engineer. I like specs and don't really care about the politics involved.

I'm also an engineer - but I don't live in the specs world. I don't care about Engineering without a social purpose.

I think you'll find a few engineers here :ugeek:

 

[hyperlexis]

I'm an engineer. I like specs and don't really care about the politics involved.

This is getting annoying. An engineer who has to be spoon-fed? Come on, man. You were the one proclaiming Nissan should offer the combo plug. And after all this discussion we learn you don't even know the specs? I think you're just here to poke the hornet's nest.

What hornet's nest?

Honest to Gd everyone getting their panties all in a bunch over a plug!

Well here's the news boys, SAE chose its own standard as the standard. They didn't choose Chademo, they chose their standard. Done, period, no backsies. Nissan may stay with Chademo or go with the SAE design. But SAE ain't buying what Nissan was selling and there is no going back now. Get over it and move on.

Put your Anthony Wieners back in your pants, the contest is over.

 

[fastcharge]

I learned quite a bit in the last two days on this forum so thank you to those that helped.