Nissan USA should offer SAE Combo plug

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fastcharge

Active member
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
35
Location
San Antonio, TX
I think Nissan USA should start offering the Leaf with the SAE combo plug in the near future. I understand that in Japan they have already installed a lot of the CHAdeMo chargers and are in the process of installing more. That is fine for Japan but in the US we have a (new) standard from the SAE which is the same group that standardized the Level 1/2 port (J1772). Currently there are very few DC fast chargers installed in the US so now is the time to standardize on a plug before companies waste money installing different types of chargers.

I think people could argue for a long time over which plug they like more but the fact is, most all of the major manufacturers have already agreed to the SAE Combo standard which means that CHAdeMO doesn't stand much of a chance in the US.

Companies that have agreed to SAE Combo Plug:
Ford
GM
Chrysler
Audi
BMW
Daimler
Porsche
VW

If Nissan would offer the SAE combo now, it would provide clarity for private companies that want to install DC fast chargers and would speed up install rates.

I would like to know other people's thoughts. Please try and keep Tesla out of the discussion. I understand they have great technology but that is their technology and there is no way to predict if/when they will share it and at what cost.
 
The only current beneft of the SAE AC plug is that they could theoretically (not a single one is currently in production) be used to connect the car via a single unit replacing the gas tank filler unit without having to redesign the car platform almost from scratch as Nissan and TESLA did. Nissan is so far ahead in deployments that CHADEMO is the ipso facto only existing global standard. TESLA being propietary is bowing to the CHADEMO standard when it starts shipping cars to Japan.

I do believe that the TESLA deisgn is the most amazing thing since sliced bread bacause they can accomodate multiple standard plugs with a simple adapter.

As Nissan LEAF pioneers, many of us have never seen a CHADEMO charger but we all have hopes that NISSAN will actually deliver the 500 units they have promised in the US.

Meanwhile we are fine with 110v and the SAE J1772 240v standard.
 
Do you not think 'one connector' will take over? One that permits both slow domestic charging and fast public charging. Like the Type 2?

It would hasten the introduction of charging stations if all they are is a port for commercial 3 phase AC. The DC chargers need their own rectifiers, which are costly and might slow down their introduction where site owners are reluctant to make big investments. I suspect the Japanese use of fast DC chargers was simply to kick-start EVs in Japan. It'll be interesting to see if DC charging is a long-term solution to fast charging and is here to stay, or just a 'quick-fix' to get EVs on to the road.
 
braineo said:
... I do believe that the TESLA deisgn is the most amazing thing since sliced bread bacause they can accomodate multiple standard plugs with a simple adapter. ...
That adapter has little to do with "TESLA design". You can buy one of those EVSE's, chop of the Tesla plug, put on a J1772, and use it with your LEAF, easily. If they were a little cheaper, you'd see people doing that left and right.
 
braineo said:
I'm tlaking about the charger plug on the car - which can take AC or DC on the same connector.
Ah. The only adapter I'm aware of for that is J1772. I agree that if the SAE connector was that easy and compact, likely everyone would be agreeing to use it.
 
fastcharge said:
I think Nissan USA should start offering the Leaf with the SAE combo plug in the near future.

I vote no. Why would the far larger list of manufacturers that support CHAdeMO (by the way, only 8 or 9, depending on how you count, support Frankenplug), with 3000 chargers in the world and 100,000 plus cars, want to adopt the Frankenplug with no cars and no public chargers?

It's stupidity in the extreme. I recommend buying a Frankenplug car, if that's what you want.

By the way, those USA Frankenplug cars aren't going to be the same as the Europe version. GM is doing its best for the USA to be isolated with our very own dumb design. Congrats to you, but no thanks for me. Thankfully, GM is doing this as well as they ran their company, and I expect Frankenplug to be DOA.

I do support a common standard for the next phase of public charging, in the 250kW to 500kW range, but that's unlikely, too. Same for inductive.
 
Frankenplug Cast Members:


First, a comment: During a Tesla shareholder's call, when the SAE standard was pointed out to Elon Musk, he said "Yes, the SAE have a standard. But it sucks." Which is why TM went its own way.



1. Audi - June 3, 2012 - cancels EV plans http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076657_audi-cans-electric-a2-city-car-a1-e-tron-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. No Frankenplug.

2. BMW - i3, Fall 2013/Early 2014 - these guys are the only ones of any of the Frankenplug consortium to have a serious EV program, that goes beyond just meeting California Air Resources Board ZEV standards.

http://www.bmw-i.com/en_ww/bmw-i3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [no specific mention of Frankenplug, but it is widely known that is their intention. Also, it doesn't mention if Frankenplug is standard or optional, but the range extender is optional.]

"The battery can be fully recharged in six hours at a standard power socket [230 volts in Europe, not our 120v]. If a high-speed charger is used an 80 per cent charge can be achieved in just one hour..... The BMW i3 Concept therefore offers an optional range extender, the REx, which allows the driving range to be increased. REx, a small, very smooth-running and quiet petrol engine, drives a generator"

Edit: report of issues from Automobile Magazine were just BS, according to inside sources at BMW"

3. Chrysler / Fiat - they don't even want to take "free" government money to develop EVs, and gave it back. Nada from them. The Fiat 500e compliance car has no mention of quick charging or combo plug (nor J1772), only 240 and 120 volt charge times. No Frankenplug.

From Automotive News, “Chrysler and Fiat will not invest in electrified powertrains until consumers are willing to step up and pay for the technology.”

https://insideevs.com/chrysler-fiat-reluctant-to-invest-in-electric-vehicles-until-next-decade-or-when-buyers-are-willing-to-pay-the-cost/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4. Daimler - working with Tesla, which means unlikely their first EV efforts will have anything more than what the Toyota Rav4 EV has.... no DC fact charger, hence no Frankenplug.

All current and future electric vehicles from Daimler:

Smart Fortwo electric drive, Mercedes-Benz A-Class E-CELL, Vito E-CELL, SLS AMG E-CELL and Fuso Canter E-CELL.

5. Ford - nada. Focus EV is a luke warm effort to comply with CARB. No Frankenplug.

6. General Motors - Spark EV, California CARB compliance car. Toyota has to sell 2600 Rav4s, so I suspect GM must sell a similar volume.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087102_gm-ceo-cadillac-to-take-on-tesla-one-day--with-plug-in-hybrid-sedan-perhaps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CEO Dan Akerson told the Detroit News that General Motors will compete with Tesla Motors--"ultimately"--through its Cadillac luxury brand.

But, Akerson said, he remained unconvinced that battery-electric vehicles were "the panacea that I think the American public wants."


http://www.hybridcars.com/news/chevrolet-spark-ev-will-be-made-south-korea-43108.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Frankenplug is optional on Spark EV and initial markets include California, Oregon, Canada, South Korea and other global markets.

“The Spark EV will be sold in limited quantities in select U.S. and global markets starting in 2013 (as a 2014 model), including California,” Fox said. “We have not announced any additional markets beyond California and have not said exactly when in 2013 they will be available. More news and information will be coming as we get closer to the introduction and launch of the Spark EV.”

"“The Spark EV will be produced in Changwon, South Korea, the same location as the Spark with the internal combustion engine," said GM's Randy Fox, Electric Vehicle Technology Communications."

"Actually, the Spark EV's range – along with curb weight, price, top speed, on-board charger details, and other specifications – are still not being shared, Fox said, as these are still being finalized."

"Although Fox did not say so, it’s likely the company will continue using SAE charging connections as it does with the Volt, and not CHAdeMO. He did confirm DC fast charging will be available."


7. Porsche - nada, hence no Frankenplug.

8. Renault - tentative and tepid announcement after the other 8 announced that they are "in". No car announced to handle it, though, and they announced their own 43kW AC fast charger and support of ChadeMo. No known car with Frankenplug.

9. Volkswagen - They have a ChadeMo Blink at their San Francisco tech center, and plan to use converted Golf's in 2013, presumably to be strictly CARB compliance cars:

"Volkswagen, a major promoter of the Combo system, plans to put EVs on the market around the world from 2013 by converting some of its Golf and other popular models.

While Volkswagen will use the Combo system as the charging system for its EVs, the company will modify relevant units to accommodate the CHAdeMo system for the Japanese market."


I would guess that the not specifically mentioned USA that will have beau coup ChadeMo's compared to perhaps zero Frankenplugs might also get those "modified / accommodated" VW cars here in the USA.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/08/2121867/automakers-aim-to-set-global-standard.html#storylink=cpy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“DC charging” refers to a charging protocol in which a charging station supplies direct current to a plug-in vehicle’s battery pack. This type of charging, which can be used to “quick charge” some compatible battery packs to 80% state-of-charge (SOC) in as little as ten to twenty minutes, contrasts with the much more common AC charging protocols, in which alternating charging current is supplied to the vehicle and is rectified to direct current by the vehicle’s on-board charger component, which then charges the battery pack.

Efforts to find consensus on a single charging standard have so far been elusive, particularly with respect to DC charging. Although the CHAdeMO DC charging standard prevails in Japan, with almost 1400 such chargers installed in that country, it is not integrated with AC charging. A CHAdeMO-complaint vehicle therefore requires a large charging door (e.g., Nissan LEAF) or two separate charging doors (e.g., Mitsubishi i-MiEV).

Volkswagen executives indicated that they had met with CHAdeMO representatives in the past to discuss a single charging standard, but were unable to come to an agreement; one executive reminisced “that was a very difficult discussion” which “quickly became political”. Although many manufacturers of plug-in vehicles, including Volkswagen, support the SAE J1772 AC-DC “combo connector” standard in the US market, as well as the somewhat similar VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 AC-DC standard in Europe, one VW executive remarked “we don’t want to discriminate” on charging standards, explaining “...the investors and the users will decide”.
 
Which one is the Frankenplug?

600
 
If all you've done is come here to champion the SAE combo plug, you'll find it a real uphill battle. For the most part we support CHAdeMO, and many of us think the SAE plug was a deliberate collusion on the part of the domestic auto industry and the SAE to try and derail the adoption of electric vehicles (or at least those from foreign manufacturers).

As for me, you're heading in to troll territory on my radar.
 
fastcharge said:
Which one is the Frankenplug?

The Frankenplug is the one where they took a universally accepted J1772-2009 plug and morphed on two big DC pins that will ONLY be used in the USA by very few car companies. There currently are ZERO cars, ZERO public operational chargers, and ZERO momentum for tax dollars to install these.

Listen, all this has been hashed out ad nauseum previously. I don't think you'll find a bunch of converts here, and you seem to be just providing old, old news. If you want a Frankenplug, I recommend going to places that have no DC charging of any kind (like many parts of the eastern USA) and where people would likely buy and drive EVs (subtract most of the fly-over red states).

That is you fertile ground to start a new standard. Good luck. Tell everybody it's the 'Merican standard, not that Jap one. Also tell folks that the government owned GM (and not just the USA government, but foreign governments) is the promoter of this new standard.

That should get great traction in places other than the west coast of the USA.

Frankenplug = DOA
 
Not trying to troll here guys. I am actually trying to shape my thinking on what the standards should be. The best way to do that is to talk to people who you may not agree with. I don't care which standard wins (CHADEMO, SAE or Tesla), I just want one of them to win immediately so that charging companies can move forward. I do believe that we can make a difference in these things. For example, if Tesla really has the best technology and that should be the standard, I think we should be doing something (i.e. call, email, something) to try and get Tesla to open up their standard to everyone else.
 
fastcharge said:
Which one is the Frankenplug?
600
Misleading photo. The CHAdeMO plug is much closer to the camera lens distorting their relative sizes. Just look at the difference in the appearance of the man's hands.
 
fastcharge said:
Not trying to troll here guys. I am actually trying to shape my thinking on what the standards should be. The best way to do that is to talk to people who you may not agree with. I don't care which standard wins (CHADEMO, SAE or Tesla), I just want one of them to win immediately so that charging companies can move forward. I do believe that we can make a difference in these things. For example, if Tesla really has the best technology and that should be the standard, I think we should be doing something (i.e. call, email, something) to try and get Tesla to open up their standard to everyone else.

I'm not much interested in supporting the Tesla standard either, TBH.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Tell everybody it's the 'Merican standard, not that Jap one. Also tell folks that the government owned GM (and not just the USA government, but foreign governments) is the promoter of this new standard.

That should get great traction in places other than the west coast of the USA.

Frankenplug = DOA

Was that really necessary? Shouldn't the people promoting EV's be working together and not attacking each other?
 
fastcharge said:
I just want one of them to win immediately so that charging companies can move forward.

Well, you answered your own question. CHAdeMO won today, which is why I support it. If Frankenplug had been around for the past 5 years, and CHAdeMO showed up with the same basic properties, I would be against it. It divides the EV movement, confuses buyers, confuses government leaders who end up doing NOTHING because now they don't know what is the "correct" standard.

Telsa will gladly open up their standard for you to use when you buy their car, or another manufacturer's car that uses licensed Telsa IP. Free, forever.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Well, you answered your own question. CHAdeMO won today, which is why I support it. If Frankenplug had been around for the past 5 years, and CHAdeMO showed up with the same basic properties, I would be against it. It divides the EV movement, confuses buyers, confuses government leaders who end up doing NOTHING because now they don't know what is the "correct" standard.

Telsa will gladly open up their standard for you to use when you buy their car, or another manufacturer's car that uses licensed Telsa IP. Free, forever.

+1 on everything Tony said.

When I can charge my LEAF (or whatever non-Tesla EV I may have at that point) at a Tesla Supercharger, I will be more inclined to be supportive of "their" standard. In the meantime, I am completely opposed to the Tesla Model S (or any other Tesla vehicle, present or future) being able to use a CHAdeMO equipped DCFC.
 
fastcharge said:
Shouldn't the people promoting EV's be working together and not attacking each other?

I am working together with like minded folks to build out the DC charging infrastructure. Those plans don't include every niche player that comes late to the market with their own charging standard.

GM is welcome to buy and install Frankenplugs, as Nissan and Tesla are doing. You'll note, the standard that you are shilling for is not even currently on the GM cars being delivered. I'll bet a nickel that in other countries, the Spark EV won't have a Frankenplug.

GM also (publically) tried to stop CHAdeMO in the USA. No thanks, you can side with GM.

BMW is reportedly planning on charging $2000 extra for the USA only Frankenplug, when none exist to use, or $3000- $4000 for a gasoline range extender.

I'll bet they sell 10:1 oil burner vs Frankenplug.

Frankenplug = DOA
 
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