fastcharge
Active member
TonyWilliams said:
So question then. What do you think Ford and GM will do? Will they simply not worry about DC charging in the next few years?
Nissan USA should offer SAE Combo plug
- Thread starter fastcharge
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So question then. What do you think Ford and GM will do? Will they simply not worry about DC charging in the next few years?
fastcharge said:
Oh, they'll continue to push the standard, as will the SAE. But they won't roll out any infrastructure. I can almost guarantee it.
Nubo
Well-known member
fastcharge said:
There is no "immediately" at this point. SAE has muddied the waters unnecessarily by adding a standard where a perfectly acceptable one was already in use. IMHO, this was done precisely to prevent a coalescence around the existing ChaDemo standard, and for anti-competitive reasons.
Tesla has gone their own way because their product was ahead of any existing standards and they had no time to waste waiting for committees, subterfuge and compromises.
Unless you support a standards selection by government fiat, this "standards war" will be decided by consumers voting with their wallets. As far as govt infrastructure subsidy, I support the use of ChaDemo, which is far more widely deployed. I don't really care how many companies have "pledged" to the SAE standard. Show me the cars, and the public charge stations they are using.
My 2 cents...
I think both standards are destined to "fail" eventually. If battery technology continue to improves, making 200-ish mile range cars affordable in the next few years, both of these standards will be of little benefit to anyone.
If you trickle charge off of 120V (not even Level 2) for 10 hours a day (eg plug in at/before 8pm, unplug at/after 6am) you'd get enough juice to drive about 15,000 miles a year. This doesn't work in practice with an 80 mile range EV, because some days you need to go more than 80 miles. When you have a car with more capacity, it will smooth out those demands. So you won't need that quick charge on occasion to get home.
If you want to take that 200 mile range EV on a road trip, you're not going to want it to take more than say 15 minutes to charge. That would require around a 200kW charge rate. Neither standard goes that far.
So in my estimation, we'll look back at both of these standards like we do VHS and BetaMax in an age of HDTV and Bluray players.
I think both standards are destined to "fail" eventually. If battery technology continue to improves, making 200-ish mile range cars affordable in the next few years, both of these standards will be of little benefit to anyone.
If you trickle charge off of 120V (not even Level 2) for 10 hours a day (eg plug in at/before 8pm, unplug at/after 6am) you'd get enough juice to drive about 15,000 miles a year. This doesn't work in practice with an 80 mile range EV, because some days you need to go more than 80 miles. When you have a car with more capacity, it will smooth out those demands. So you won't need that quick charge on occasion to get home.
If you want to take that 200 mile range EV on a road trip, you're not going to want it to take more than say 15 minutes to charge. That would require around a 200kW charge rate. Neither standard goes that far.
So in my estimation, we'll look back at both of these standards like we do VHS and BetaMax in an age of HDTV and Bluray players.
Nubo
Well-known member
fastcharge said:
They will aim to produce the minimum number of EVs to satisfy CARB requirements and be perfectly willing to take a loss. Which means they can sell on price rather than features, so the plug isn't really a factor for their sales.
In the meantime they will continue to try to convince government to adhere to SAE standard. Basically will attempt to disrupt the existing EV market and real EV producers, not by producing competing products, but with a piece of paper.
Nubo
Well-known member
Sublime said:
I agree, the endgame may well belong to Tesla, depending on how willing they are to license their standard.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Nubo said:
They are VERY willing. Can you imagine GM paying Tesla, though? Just like they wouldn't pay CHAdeMO.
GM will go down kicking and screaming to their next BK.
Other manufacturers, however, will buy the Supercharger license.
fastcharge
Active member
You guys may be right about SAE and competition. You might also be right that DC chargers aren't needed in the future although Tesla sure thinks they are. I think what I hate is that consumers don't really have a choice right now. It is not like you can decide which gas station to fill up at based on what you think of Shell or BP. Someone has to build up the DC fast charge infrastructure which is going to be expensive. Because there are three standards, it makes it hard to figure out which one to invest in.
Would you guys be against Nissan offering the combo plug on the Leaf for an additional cost? That would give consumers more choice.
Would you guys be against Nissan offering the combo plug on the Leaf for an additional cost? That would give consumers more choice.
Deleted member 9549
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Do you work for or have a vested financial interest in a company sponsoring the SAE combo plug such as GM?fastcharge said:
There's nothing wrong with that, but some disclosure would be nice. Recently joined and the only thing that seems important is not anything related to the LEAF but only adoption of the SAE combo plug. This type of post reminds me of some that I see on a particular GM EV site that makes me wonder if GM is actively encouraging posts to spread their position.
There was recently a post on reddit about astroturfing that was interesting.
fastcharge
Active member
dm33 said:
I think that is fair question to ask. I have no financial interest in anything related to cars, chargers or SAE. I was actually looking into putting a fast charger in central Texas because as it is right now, you can't even drive from Austin to San Antonio and waiting 4 hours in San Marcos seems ridiculous. I thought it was pretty straight forward and was looking at the CHADEMO chargers. I knew about Tesla Superchargers but wanted something for everyone else, especially now that the lease prices on the Leaf and Volt have come way down. Then I recently learned about the SAE combo and that really confused the issue. Now I am a bit depressed because I want EV's to take off (more than they are) but there is no consensus which means nothing will happen.
adric22
Well-known member
I'm not. Even though I don't own a Tesla I see benefit for everyone if Tesla could use Chademo stations. Just think if you were a company building Chademo charging stations (Blink, eVgo, etc) and suddenly Tesla could use those same stations. You suddenly just doubled your customer base. And it would give you more incentive to build more chademo stations. That benefits Leaf drivers.mwalsh said:
I also agree that the SAE combo plug was an attempt to slow down the introduction of EVs until the other manufacturers could play catch up. I think at some point they started taking Nissan as a serious threat to the future, decided they needed a few years to catch up, and decided this would be a good way to slow Nissan down.
Nubo said:
They certainly are the only ones deploying chargers capable of the demands of future EVs. I'm also sure that the chargers/cars have enough programability that if Nissan (or any other manufacturer) was willing to pay to use it, a fairly cheap adapter could be made to adapt chademo or sae to a supercharger.
Deleted member 9549
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I think you've gotten a pretty consistent answer. There is no great confusion other than what GM is attempting to introduce.fastcharge said:
CHAdeMO is the de-facto standard for high speed charging. The LEAF supports it, Tesla has implied they will provide an adapter. The Mitsubishi i-MiEV supports it as does the upcoming Kia Soul. There are no other cars that I'm aware of sold in the 50 states which support fast charging. So you're pretty safe by deploying CHAdeMO. No confusion.
smkettner
Well-known member
I even refused to pay the $700 for CHAdeMO. Pay even more for the SAE plug? No way. Besides name one location to use an SAE plug :lol:fastcharge said:
3.3kW J1772 is just fine by me.
I want a larger battery, not faster charging. Probably end up with Tesla and have both
jhm614
Well-known member
Couple of notes:fastcharge said:
1) To get a charger down that way, your best bet might be to lobby EvGo to put a CHADEMO charger in the Cracker Barrel in San Marcos. There are several Cracker Barrel's in the D/FW area that have CHADEMO's. EvGo is steadily building out their Fast Charging network, but they don't have anything in Austin, San Marcos or San Antonio. (I have no affiliation with Evgo and I'm not a customer -- I do almost all of my charging at home)
2) I believe the only cars in Texas that can handle fast charging are Leafs and Teslas (I don't Volts don't have a fast charging port -- plus, they would just make that drive using the gasoline range extender), so even if you did put an SAE charger in, it wouldn't help actual, current EV drivers.
Admirable goal and I'm sure you will find others to help if you are sincere. Tony Williams has more experience here than most. My $0.02: For plugins sold to-date, Texas is probably neck-n-neck Volts & Leafs, followed by Teslas, then maybe Fords just starting. Since the Volt doesn't QC, forget about it. Put in a Nissan branded chademo first, add additional units as needed, including even the ABB-duel model to future-proof whether any combo-cars ever really get released. Tesla will make an adapter, so you don't need to worry about them. Make sure you include some L2 J1772 like clipper creek for the Volt. You might even include high & low power L2's one for Volt, one for Tesla. So, what are we up to? $100k? You'll need to include some "services" that people are interested in during their stay (wireless, upscale food/coffee/drinks, entertainment, etc.). I think you'll find that EV'ers are cheap when it comes to paying for electricity, but might spend more on other services.fastcharge said:
fastcharge
Active member
jhm614 said:
Thanks for the recommendation. That is exactly where I think a charger should go. That is where the Tanger Outlet is which has a ton of shops and some restaurants. It is right in between Austin and San Antonio and a weekend destination for a lot of people.
adric22 said:
I do see that point, and it makes complete sense. But my heart won't let me condone Tesla's exclusionary attitude. So add to that my previous bad blood with Mr. Musk over his space venture shenanigans and Tesla would have to GIVE me a model S at this point to turn me in their favor (which isn't a bad idea!)
Nubo
Well-known member
fastcharge said:
The redesign and tooling cost probably couldn't be justified by the very few people who would buy it at this point. The chargers don't exist.
So yeah, I'd be against it because it would be a waste of money and resources driving up the cost of producing LEAF for no practical purpose.
DNAinaGoodWay
Well-known member
"Kingyoku"
If Nissan had them, they'd flood the US with thousands of CHAdeMO, all dealers, highway rest stops, all chain food outlets, not just Crackerbarrel, even gas stations, EVERYWHERE!
Now's their chance to blitz it good before anybody else really comes out, even Tesla stations are very few at this point.
They could corner it all right now and put this to rest.
Gamble big, and win.
Kingyoku!
Edit: sorry, could also be Kintama! My Kanji is horrible. As in, "Kintama said the queen, if I had 'em I'd be king!"
If Nissan had them, they'd flood the US with thousands of CHAdeMO, all dealers, highway rest stops, all chain food outlets, not just Crackerbarrel, even gas stations, EVERYWHERE!
Now's their chance to blitz it good before anybody else really comes out, even Tesla stations are very few at this point.
They could corner it all right now and put this to rest.
Gamble big, and win.
Kingyoku!
Edit: sorry, could also be Kintama! My Kanji is horrible. As in, "Kintama said the queen, if I had 'em I'd be king!"
