Trailer batteries or gensets for Leafs?

[GetOffYourGas]

$20 to fill a 20 lb tank? yikes! BJ's near me will refill it currently for $8.99. 6 months ago, it was $6.99. Either I'm getting a killer deal or you are getting ripped off.

 

[TonyWilliams]

When you say "5 gallon tank" are you talking about a 20lb tank? I've always thought propane to be high priced for what it does. I mean in my area a 20lb propane tank runs $20 refilled or exchanged(maybe a bit less refilled) but still $20 to go 150 miles.....lets see for a petrol car to go 150 miles at 30mpg it would equal 5 gallons, which is currently a little over $2/gallon in my area or half price of propane......yes you'd also have to worry about transporting the propane tank, I don't think DOT would be kosher with such an arrangement. Of course it might be OK for a individual to do it, who would know until an accident happened......but then theirs the insurance to consider....

So, you're doing exactly what I said... calculating the cost for something used infrequently. It's the same old arguments used against paying for DC fast charging. Heck, maybe you could run a diesel cheaper, and maybe pull all the emissions controls off and it'll be cheaper yet.

How many TOTAL miles do you envision driving under propane power? Hundreds per year?

My point to the DOT certification was that these are already legal for trailer use.

The fuel source is not your number one consideration with a direct drive pusher trailer.

 

[jjeff]

Thats true, it's not like one would be using it that much, it's just more the idea. And yes exchanging one of those gas grill 20lb tanks in my state(or neighboring state for that matter) is anywhere from $16.99 on sale to $21.99 and I think the last time refilled a tank it was approaching the $16.99 so I stopped doing that a few years ago. I was so bugged by the high price for propane when I purchased our new Weber I got one that used natural gas, it was $30 more but natural gas is quite cheap around here and everyone has it(at least everyone in the city/suburbs) people in the country still use propane delivered by a big truck to their big outside tank, I'd imagine that has to cost less/gallon than either exchanging 20lb tanks or refilling your tank at the few places that do it. It sounds like around here any way they may be gouging for propane, another reason I'm glad I got a natural gas grill. Of course figuring the extra it cost for the natural gas grill and the time and material it took me to run a line to my outside grill it may never pay itself back, but I just hate paying too much for something if I can find another way.......even if it might end up costing more in the end Of course my Leaf is probably a classic example, I'm sure it would have cost less to buy a Toyota Corolla or such, but I didn't want a Toyota Corolla, that or a Prius as I like my Leaf

 

[IssacZachary]

If the fuel were uranium... :shock:

Anyhow, about propane:

It's usually very expensive to exchange 20lb tanks. And since they usually don't get filled full, you only get about 4 gallons instead of 5. So that's $5 per gallon at $20 per tank.

But if you have the tank filled instead of exchanged, that's a different story. It's usually much cheaper, sometimes cheaper than gasoline. You could also bolt on a DOT approved tank of up to 100 gallons without a hazmat endorsement if I'm not mistaken.

My thoughts are that even if it is $5 per gallon, my goal is to use as much electric power as possible. I want this to be an emergency device, not my main power source. If I'm driving by a CHAdeMO station, I'll use it. If my trip goes by a Level two charging station, I'll go there and let the wife shop while it's charging. So I'm not that concerned if it gets 30mpg and costs $5 per gallon.

In fact, if there were more charging stations available I wouldn't even be contemplating making a range extender. I'd just go from charging station to charging station for those once in a while trips.

 

[TonyWilliams]

In fact, if there were more charging stations available I wouldn't even be contemplating making a range extender. I'd just go from charging station to charging station for those once in a while trips.

If you needed to use a range extender often you have the wrong car... get a different car!!!

If it's going to be used (as it should be) very infrequently, then The cost per mile is such an insignificant part of the entire cost of the project that it's even silly to waste five seconds thinking about.

So, regardless of the fuel source, a direct arrive motor has a number of very significant challenges. I still think the best way is a generator powering an electric drive motor.

 

[sub3marathonman]

If it's going to be used (as it should be) very infrequently, then The cost per mile is such an insignificant part of the entire cost of the project that it's even silly to waste five seconds thinking about.

As an example, several years ago I mapped out a 1600 mile round trip with the LEAF. Even back then there were enough DCQC stations that it was doable. Well, except for that one stretch of about 110 miles in central Alabama. Not even a plugshare person along the route. One tiny town, I thought they might have a 110v plug I could use for a small bit of time, paying for the electricity. I emailed them, but they never responded, but ultimately the trip was cancelled because the trip schedule changed and Nissan dealers with the DCQC were closed on Sundays.

So, theoretically I would have had to actually take the Prius, using 32 gallons of fuel, just to offset the 30 or 40 miles out of range needed for the one stretch. Since it would have been round trip, I would have needed the 60 to 80 miles covered by a range extender. And possibly less if I got somewhere and was allowed to charge at 110v and pay for the electricity, or I was able to drive further under better conditions.

So, regardless of the fuel source, a direct arrive motor has a number of very significant challenges. I still think the best way is a generator powering an electric drive motor.

That's why, with my example above, I'd be fine with a generator that could put out 220v, get the modified LEAF 110v trickle charger to put out 220v, and plug it in while stopped to eat.

 

[IssacZachary]

If you needed to use a range extender often you have the wrong car... get a different car!!!

If it's going to be used (as it should be) very infrequently, then The cost per mile is such an insignificant part of the entire cost of the project that it's even silly to waste five seconds thinking about.

So, regardless of the fuel source, a direct arrive motor has a number of very significant challenges. I still think the best way is a generator powering an electric drive motor.

Would you consider 10 times per year often? If so what would you recommend for someone who needs to transport up to 4 or 5 adult sized people, lives in a small town with cold freezing weather during the winter and does several small trips all day long?

It's the short trips that were killing me and why I got a Leaf. I hate idling, plus in many places around here it's illegal anyway, so my ICE cars never warmed up. All day long between stops of 5 miles or less the gauge would never move some days. Usually an ICE warms up right as you pull into your destination. It makes me cringe to think how my driving pattern affects an ICE's longevity, not to mention the fuel mileage and emissions.

I'm surprised at how efficient the Leaf's heater is! I've sat around over 6 hours in the car with the heater running the whole time between my short stops and still have enough battery to get home on a single charge! Plus for the money it was a great deal! I was looking at cars twice as old for the same price as my used 2013. Or the same year, but for one and a half or two times more the price.

Like I said, if there were actual public charging stations around here I'd just use those on long trips. Like if I go do Denver, it's a little over 200 miles from here. Even if I had to stop and charge 4 times at 4 hours each stop, that would be better to me than to get another ICE car.

Yes I can rent. But at $40 per day or more, that could easily be nearly $1,000 per year. But I can get a 240V propane generator for $1,000!

I guess if I were to trade in the Leaf about the only cars that I know of that have instant electric heat like the Leaf are a Prius or a diesel Chevy Cruze. But to not have to idle to keep getting the heat I might need a PHEV Prius? I wonder how old and miles it would have to have to cost $9,000 like my 2013 Leaf... :?:

 

[IssacZachary]

If it's going to be used (as it should be) very infrequently, then The cost per mile is such an insignificant part of the entire cost of the project that it's even silly to waste five seconds thinking about.

As an example, several years ago I mapped out a 1600 mile round trip with the LEAF. Even back then there were enough DCQC stations that it was doable. Well, except for that one stretch of about 110 miles in central Alabama. Not even a plugshare person along the route. One tiny town, I thought they might have a 110v plug I could use for a small bit of time, paying for the electricity. I emailed them, but they never responded, but ultimately the trip was cancelled because the trip schedule changed and Nissan dealers with the DCQC were closed on Sundays.

So, theoretically I would have had to actually take the Prius, using 32 gallons of fuel, just to offset the 30 or 40 miles out of range needed for the one stretch. Since it would have been round trip, I would have needed the 60 to 80 miles covered by a range extender. And possibly less if I got somewhere and was allowed to charge at 110v and pay for the electricity, or I was able to drive further under better conditions.

So, regardless of the fuel source, a direct arrive motor has a number of very significant challenges. I still think the best way is a generator powering an electric drive motor.

That's why, with my example above, I'd be fine with a generator that could put out 220v, get the modified LEAF 110v trickle charger to put out 220v, and plug it in while stopped to eat.

Sounds like were in the same boat and mind set. I'd be happy with a 240V genset on a rack on a tow hitch.

 

[jjeff]

If it's going to be used (as it should be) very infrequently, then The cost per mile is such an insignificant part of the entire cost of the project that it's even silly to waste five seconds thinking about.

As an example, several years ago I mapped out a 1600 mile round trip with the LEAF. Even back then there were enough DCQC stations that it was doable. Well, except for that one stretch of about 110 miles in central Alabama. Not even a plugshare person along the route. One tiny town, I thought they might have a 110v plug I could use for a small bit of time, paying for the electricity. I emailed them, but they never responded, but ultimately the trip was cancelled because the trip schedule changed and Nissan dealers with the DCQC were closed on Sundays.

So, theoretically I would have had to actually take the Prius, using 32 gallons of fuel, just to offset the 30 or 40 miles out of range needed for the one stretch. Since it would have been round trip, I would have needed the 60 to 80 miles covered by a range extender. And possibly less if I got somewhere and was allowed to charge at 110v and pay for the electricity, or I was able to drive further under better conditions.

So, regardless of the fuel source, a direct arrive motor has a number of very significant challenges. I still think the best way is a generator powering an electric drive motor.

That's why, with my example above, I'd be fine with a generator that could put out 220v, get the modified LEAF 110v trickle charger to put out 220v, and plug it in while stopped to eat.

Sounds like were in the same boat and mind set. I'd be happy with a 240V genset on a rack on a tow hitch.

Just spit ballin' but while I like the idea of the cargo rack I just feel that the weight of a 20 or 30a 240v generator(250 lbs??) would be just too heavy hanging 20" out the back of a Leaf......but I wonder if you could attach a high-speed wheel under or slightly behind the rack? It wouldn't support the whole rack but just help with some of the load.....since there would just be one wheel in the center backing up shouldn't be an issue?? and since it's technically not a trailer you shouldn't have to pay the yearly tab(tag?) fees that some states(like mine) charge for trailers. You could charge the vehicle with the generator on the rack(while parked) and 2 somewhat strong people should be able to remove the rack after your trip. I guess if you took it a step further, slightly jack up back of vehicle before installing receiver/rack then lower jack and transfer some weight to receiver rack rear wheel and then for the reverse you could somehow temporarily mount a couple wheels to the front of the receiver rack(both front corners) and that way one person could install and remove the generator/receiver rack....
Jack up car a few inches in back, with temporary front wheels installed slide receiver rack/generator into receiver rack. Remove temporary front wheels, lower jack to transfer weight to single wheel on the back of receiver rack.
Easy peasy, one a one person job and shouldn't take more than 5?? minutes to install rack. Not sure where you'd want to carry the gas or propane for the generator but I suppose you could either strap it down to an unused are of the rack or in the boot of the car. Personally I'd just use gas and I suppose since most generators have a 1 or 2 gallon gas tank you'd probably not need any more for a single trip but if going with propane you'd have the 20lb tank to contend with.

 

[IssacZachary]

I'm afraid that if it has a wheel touching the ground, it's a trailer.

On the bright side there is a single wheel trailer design that has a caster style wheel so it can be backed up with no problem. Sometime was earlier mentioned using a caster wheel for a pusher trailer, which doesn't sound good to me, but as a tow behind trailer it would work nicely.

Personally I'd just keep it as a rack and use straps to help build the rack up. I'm a big guy so a far as handing goes I should be a good counterweight.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The receiver rock and generator is easy, of that's what works.

I can't imagine some low cost loud "thumper" rattling away back there for hours at a time, but everybody has their threshold of pain.

I'd probably use two of the small briefcase generators.

 

[IssacZachary]

The receiver rock and generator is easy, of that's what works.

I can't imagine some low cost loud "thumper" rattling away back there for hours at a time, but everybody has their threshold of pain.

I'd probably use two of the small briefcase generators.

There's the Honda EU7000 that weighs 250lbs and the Yamaha EF6300isde that weighs 200lbs. Both are quiet, pure sine wave and efficient. The Honda is fuel injected. I'm looking for a used Yamaha myself. If I want propane later there are kits for that. I almost nabbed one on eBay. Oh well, I guess I'll just keep looking.

 

[jlsoaz]

Hi - I'm not very handy and I don't quite understand the ideas that are being discussed for a genset that appears to be more of a vehicle attachment than a wheeled trailer. A "receiver"? It does sound interesting. Setting aside legalities (and there might be some) I would wonder about:

1) safety of where/how to carry the fuel, even if a modest amount. In a rear-ender or other collision, how would it work with Propane tank or other small tank? Would they be directly to, or insufficiently far removed from, the collision? Would they have the weight of appropriate robustness (and protection?) of a conventional tank?
2) aerodynamics of getting air to the combustion.
3) exhaust system - where does the exhaust go?

This is not to discourage the ideation, only to list some questions I had in reading through.

Also, Tony said something about how if you really think about using this frequently, then a different vehicle altogether might be more appropriate. I must admit that a part of why I posted is that when used Leaf prices hit the $2k-$5k mark, this will be more my speed, but only if I do not have to bear the cost of maintaining a second gasoline car (which was the big drag financially during the months I leased a Leaf). I guess installation of a few good DCFC along my routes would largely change the equation for me, but to be honest, I don't see that happening for another few years (at least) (there are 2-3 reliable ones now in Tucson, but not down here near Nogales, AZ). My thinking here is not confined to my own personal equations, but sometimes it can be useful to try to extrapolate from those, for part of a broader discussion.

Anyway, perhaps the main thing in my mind is that in about 5-10 years much of this will come out in the wash as there will be enough used 150 mile BEVs on the road, and hopefully an increased number of well-functioning DCFC, that a person can commit to that one single used vehicle. Also, before then, used PHEVS will come down to those levels in price, though they are a compromise. I guess, in the end, those are sort of the way to go (the way I am leaning toward). There is still the sort of interesting question of what happens during these early years and once in awhile I come back to this question of a trailer genset for convenient travel. To me, an added value would be if they could be flex-fuel (could be biodiesel-compatible if ethanol bothers some folks as insufficiently sustainable). Another added value might (I am not sure) be if I could lease or rent the genset. I think a lot of this is (maybe) not that realistic, but just writing out some ideas. There are more scenarios for how the questions play out of what happens with the short-range BEVs as they are quickly obsoleted, but I have to cut my editing short for now so if I've made some glaring error in what I've said I"ll just try to correct some other time.

 

[VitaminJ]

Hi - I'm not very handy and I don't quite understand the ideas that are being discussed for a genset that appears to be more of a vehicle attachment than a wheeled trailer. A "receiver"? It does sound interesting. Setting aside legalities (and there might be some) I would wonder about:

1) safety of where/how to carry the fuel, even if a modest amount. In a rear-ender or other collision, how would it work with Propane tank or other small tank? Would they be directly to, or insufficiently far removed from, the collision? Would they have the weight of appropriate robustness (and protection?) of a conventional tank?
2) aerodynamics of getting air to the combustion.
3) exhaust system - where does the exhaust go?

1) propane would likely be safer than gasoline in a rear-ending like that. Both would be crushed and the propane would vent to the atmosphere, gasoline would linger around the scene for some time. It would be no different than the 1000s of cars that drive around all the time with camping stoves or bbqs or jerry cans on their hitch racks. This is a benefit of the roof rack configuration, also.

2) Not an issue at all, the pressures and air velocities happening inside the engine are far more extreme than 65mph down the highway.

3) Out the back


In the "charging while driving" thread I posted a 7kw generator that was about 200lbs and $800 and ran on both gasoline and propane. I was called a fool.

Anyway, perhaps the main thing in my mind is that in about 5-10 years much of this will come out in the wash as there will be enough used 150 mile BEVs on the road, and hopefully an increased number of well-functioning DCFC, that a person can commit to that one single used vehicle. Also, before then, used PHEVS will come down to those levels in price, though they are a compromise.

Don't forget parking spaces with built-in wireless charging!

 

[jjeff]

Hi - I'm not very handy and I don't quite understand the ideas that are being discussed for a genset that appears to be more of a vehicle attachment than a wheeled trailer. A "receiver"? It does sound interesting. Setting aside legalities (and there might be some) I would wonder about:

1) safety of where/how to carry the fuel, even if a modest amount. In a rear-ender or other collision, how would it work with Propane tank or other small tank? Would they be directly to, or insufficiently far removed from, the collision? Would they have the weight of appropriate robustness (and protection?) of a conventional tank?
2) aerodynamics of getting air to the combustion.
3) exhaust system - where does the exhaust go?

A receiver rack is a small rack 4-5' wide and ~20" deep. They generally have a 2-3" lip and the platform is a heavy mesh?? material, the better ones are generally aluminum and weigh 20?? lbs. They plug(or push) into your vehicles 1 1/2 or 2" receiver style trailer hitch(like SUVs have, you must add this your self as Leafs don't come with one). As the Leaf is probably only rated for 200?? lbs tongue weight and most generators are more than that, weight is a issue. Of course I've also used straps from my receiver rack back to the top of the car to help with the weight(not on my Leaf but on another car) but they can only help hold so much weight.
I also probably wouldn't' want to carry the propane tank on the rack, if I were going that route I'd probably put in in the back of the Leaf, only to remove once parked and running the generator. IMO just using gas and the gas tank on the top of the generator would be easiest, true for a rear end collision it could be an issue but lots of people carry things like lawn mowers and snow blowers on such racks and they all have gas tanks.
The beauty of receiver racks is they don't really effect aerodynamics as they sit in the trail wind area of the car, because of drag you don't really want a rack wider than your vehicle, preferably 6" or so narrower on each side.
Exhaust wouldn't really be an issue(unless it was pointed directly at the car causing soot) as I'd personally only run the generator when stopped, tying into the vehicles power for charging on the go has too many issues IMO, best to only charge while parked.

Tony, the only issue with 2 brief-case generators is while they both put out 120v, you can't easily hook them in series for 240v, you can easily parallel them for double the amps @ 120v(~32a) but modern Leafs max out at 27.5a @ 120v and even that is half the power of getting a good 30a 240v generator. Note while I haven't done it myself I believe there are several threads with people talking about using run of the mill generators(not fancy sign wave ones) to power an EVSE. It's what I'm planning on doing with my 30a 240v Costco(Champion) generator(~$600) which works on gas or propane, but haven't tried it yet.
I'm not really planning on carrying mine around, it's more to power the house during extended power outages and charge my Leaf during those times(probably not both at the same time or if charging for sure not at the full rate my car can take).

 

[TonyWilliams]

One or two Honda generators are significantly lighter, quieter, meets regulations for national parks for noise, emissions, and spark arrestor, etc. All are CARB compliant.

The low cost, non-inverter, high vibration, noisy generators frequently have few of the above features.

The following link allows two Honda EU2000 generators at 48 pounds each can provide 26 amps continuous at 120 volts (2.8kW). Just one of these Honda generators are perfect with the stock Nissan / Panasonic charge cable at 12 amp / 120 volts.

http://www.steadypower.com/products.php?product=Honda-EU2000i-Parallel-Cable-Kit-%252d-RV-Ready

The Honda EU3000 is 78 pounds 2.6kW rated 21.7A @ 120 volts.

You can put two of these together, but not much of an advantage to have more amps at 120 volts.

Honda EU7000 is 265 pounds (plus gasoline @ 6.5 pounds per gallon) - 5.5kW rated (45.8 @ 120v, 22.9A @ 240v)

This would need a trailer. Don't try and carry this on a rack... it's too heavy and could affect vehicle handling and braking.

Don't store gasoline or propane in the LEAF. It's actually against the law. There are California rules for emissions concerning carrying gasoline in a tank.

 

[jlsoaz]

[...]
The beauty of receiver racks is they don't really effect aerodynamics as they sit in the trail wind area of the car, because of drag you don't really want a rack wider than your vehicle, preferably 6" or so narrower on each side. [...]

It may be a small thing, but I suggest to all keep in mind that a hydrocarbon combustion engine requires sufficient oxygen for the combustion. For a conventional car I think this is all basic, but for a car where there has never been any such consideration, and where the small engine is being a bit hidden in a possible airflow deadspot, I wonder if it would be an issue. If an issue, perhaps easily solved such as with a small added intake somewhere.

 

[VitaminJ]

It may be a small thing, but I suggest to all keep in mind that a hydrocarbon combustion engine requires sufficient oxygen for the combustion. For a conventional car I think this is all basic, but for a car where there has never been any such consideration, and where the small engine is being a bit hidden in a possible airflow deadspot, I wonder if it would be an issue. If an issue, perhaps easily solved such as with a small added intake somewhere.

No.

 

[TonyWilliams]

[...]
The beauty of receiver racks is they don't really effect aerodynamics as they sit in the trail wind area of the car, because of drag you don't really want a rack wider than your vehicle, preferably 6" or so narrower on each side. [...]

It may be a small thing, but I suggest to all keep in mind that a hydrocarbon combustion engine requires sufficient oxygen for the combustion. For a conventional car I think this is all basic, but for a car where there has never been any such consideration, and where the small engine is being a bit hidden in a possible airflow deadspot, I wonder if it would be an issue. If an issue, perhaps easily solved such as with a small added intake somewhere.

Am I to believe that you are considered operating the generator while driving? How?

 

[jjeff]

[...]
The beauty of receiver racks is they don't really effect aerodynamics as they sit in the trail wind area of the car, because of drag you don't really want a rack wider than your vehicle, preferably 6" or so narrower on each side. [...]

It may be a small thing, but I suggest to all keep in mind that a hydrocarbon combustion engine requires sufficient oxygen for the combustion. For a conventional car I think this is all basic, but for a car where there has never been any such consideration, and where the small engine is being a bit hidden in a possible airflow deadspot, I wonder if it would be an issue. If an issue, perhaps easily solved such as with a small added intake somewhere.

Am I to believe that you are considered operating the generator while driving? How?

Not sure about jlsoaz but I sure wouldn't operate it while driving, only while parked and preferably not around it