Trailer batteries or gensets for Leafs?

[sub3marathonman]

You accused man on youtube of burning up his Leaf with a range extender with no proof whatsoever, I figured I'll do the same when I see a burnt up Rav4, it must have been yours...

Well, that's not exactly what VitaminJ said.

Looking forward to your burned up Rav4 video on youtube.

"Looking forward to your burned up Rav4" (bold added) is not the same as "when I see a burnt up Rav4" (bold added) Sometimes when somebody says something, it says more about themselves.

I won't go on for pages, but TonyWilliams is a man who has my utmost respect, and should have the same utmost respect from all members here and anybody who owns a Nissan LEAF. He was instrumental in bringing the battery degradation issue from a back room in Nissan to a class action settlement, even though it isn't a completely fair settlement for all through no fault of TonyWilliams. He has helped me personally answering a few questions I've had.

When TonyWilliams says something, it is worth listening to.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Maybe it's a bit "out there" but does anyone know of realistic progress on either hydrocarbon electric power generators or extra battery power that comes in the form of a trailer for a Leaf?

...

Anyway, with the used Leafs being (somewhat, relatively) affordable but having such disappointing range, I have been looking at used PHEVs, but if somehow a trailer of some sort really was well-executed, I could at least consider it.

As the OP first asked, and now has been discussed, it really isn't that far "out there" to attempt to extend the range of a LEAF.

I haven't advocated a trailer approach necessarily, I've just given the forgotten example of "The Long Ranger" from a legitimate company, Toyota. I'm not sure how much it cost then, but there were at least a few people who purchased one. I still think a trailer gives more ease of deciding to take it with or not, as opposed to permanently having a huge rack on the back of the car carrying around a generator or even extra batteries. My opinion is a generator makes sense as an individual option, extra batteries used only on occasion would be degrading due to time, and would be more of a rental option in some locations.

I think the roof rack approach is completely unfeasible, but if somebody wants to try it, that is their choice.

At some point, I think this will be a legitimate option, either homemade DIY and charging at a restaurant while eating, or a company offering a professional range extender. I know, if I had to pay $6k for a new battery, as opposed to getting by for two, three, or four more years paying $1500 to $3k for a range extender, I would definitely consider it. And yes, there may be one guy out there who had his batteries on ice for three years who still has 90% SOH, but that isn't typical. And many people purchased a LEAF as new on the outer edge of its performance for their commute, who now have been left in a poor situation. If you believed the Nissan stories, 80% minimum after five years, 70% after ten years, then you've been sadly disappointed, and short of dumping a very expensive car a range extender becomes an option.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I have responded to every single technical detail you've typed and you then abandon that train of thought and start a new subject so you don't have to revisit it. You accused man on youtube of burning up his Leaf with a range extender with no proof whatsoever, I figured I'll do the same when I see a burnt up Rav4, it must have been yours...Also your appeals to authority in place of actual logical arguments makes you seem like an egomaniac. Here it is again, referencing your 10,000 posts instead of actually answering the challenge....Now that everyone has proclaimed they will ignore me everyone is talking about a generator in a hitch rack and no more pusher trailers

This will be my last response directly to you. I did not claim that you didn't respond to my posts, so once again, you just don't get it. I'm not interested in proving anything to you. Generators on a hitch rack are a safe, simple idea, and one that has been done many times. Nothing new, or revolutionary.

Your continued attacks that are addressed to me sadly means that I do need to block you. I don't take that action lightly.

I've been active on Internet forums since the late 1980s (starting with AvSIG on Compuserve). I am and have been a forum moderator at various sites. I have quite literally made tens of thousands of posts on the internet. In the course of my forum duties over the decades, I have probably blocked hundreds of people. Thankfully, the issues here on this forum are very, very small compared to some forums that I have been involved in (professional pilots can be real assholes on the Internet ;-) But, nonetheless, you have become a problem for myself and for the decorum of the forum in general.

I neither have the time nor the inclination to engage in a tiresome argument with you, nor will I tolerate your continued attacks. Let me remind you that name-calling is a violation of the form rules, which could have you removed and blocked from posting here.

Good luck.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... TonyWilliams is a man who has my utmost respect, and should have the same utmost respect from all members here and anybody who owns a Nissan LEAF. He was instrumental in bringing the battery degradation issue from a back room in Nissan to a class action settlement, even though it isn't a completely fair settlement for all through no fault of TonyWilliams. He has helped me personally answering a few questions I've had.

When TonyWilliams says something, it is worth listening to.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Best wishes and tailwinds always !

 

[IssacZachary]

Not silly to me. Especially now that I see that a practical range extension of close to 50% at highway speed could have been designed in by Nissan right from the start for an additional $1000 in hardware and a logic change to the charger.

I'd bet it would be much more expensive than $1,000 per car. When you start adding emissions equipment and testing the price then ends up being just as much as a large engine to build. A cheap small emissions engine just does not exist.

 

[sendler2112]

A Honda CBR300 engine would easily pass emissions. It would cost more though. Might as well go DC at 15 kW if done at the manufacturer level. Which would allow uninterupted driving.

 

[IssacZachary]

A Honda CBR300 engine would easily pass emissions. It would cost more though. Might as well go DC at 15 kW if done at the manufacturer level. Which would allow uninterupted driving.

I don't mean to argue, but motorcycle emissions are not near as stringent as car emissions. So yes, I think it's a good idea and it would get much better emissions than a genset. But not the same as a car is supposed to get without adding a whole lot more emissions techniques, equipment and such. So for Nissan to do it it would still be quite expensive in the end.

 

[sendler2112]

Does the BMW meet automotive emission levels with it's moto engine based range extender? I would be intersted to know if it has EGR and secondary air injection. Air injection is a big waste of money any way. It is only active during the first minute or less after cold starts. The new Honda world motorcycles, ie the 300, 500, 700, and PCX150 all have fuel injection with an O2 sensor and a large cat. And are tuned with an emphasis on fuel efficiency.

 

[IssacZachary]

Regardless of emissions and what Nissan never did, I do think I'd much rather spend $4,000 or so on a Honda CBR300 and put it on a it's rear wheel behind the Leaf and use it as pusher. It could also be used as alone as a motorcycle in the summer. That would seem to be a much better deal than a +$4,000 240V inverter generator and likely much better for emissions as well.

 

[sub3marathonman]

The new Honda world motorcycles, ie the 300, 500, 700, and PCX150 all have fuel injection with an O2 sensor and a large cat. And are tuned with an emphasis on fuel efficiency.

But that all sounds expensive. But yes, spectacular, makes me want to get a Rebel again. I always loved the 234cc engine in my Honda Rebel. They apparently kept improving it even more than my '85 Rebel, which went almost 100K miles, no engine work other than maintenance such as oil change and spark plugs. Even had the original clutch!

And I don't see why a generator setup, even if sold by Nissan, would have to meet automotive emissions. It is separate from the car. Now, that doesn't mean we're wanting a 30-year-old diesel spewing pollution to get a kwh of electricity, but the electric companies don't have to meet automotive emissions, yet they're powering EVs.

 

[IssacZachary]

The new Honda world motorcycles, ie the 300, 500, 700, and PCX150 all have fuel injection with an O2 sensor and a large cat. And are tuned with an emphasis on fuel efficiency.

But that all sounds expensive. But yes, spectacular, makes me want to get a Rebel again. I always loved the 234cc engine in my Honda Rebel. They apparently kept improving it even more than my '85 Rebel, which went almost 100K miles, no engine work other than maintenance such as oil change and spark plugs. Even had the original clutch!

And I don't see why a generator setup, even if sold by Nissan, would have to meet automotive emissions. It is separate from the car. Now, that doesn't mean we're wanting a 30-year-old diesel spewing pollution to get a kwh of electricity, but the electric companies don't have to meet automotive emissions, yet they're powering EVs.

Ya. I wish it were that way. But it's not.

As far as I have researched, there are already laws in place that govern both BEV range extending devices, including trailers, and pusher trailers, at least commercial ones.

For an example, in California a range extending trailer like we've mentioned would have to:

1. The vehicle must have a rated all-electric range of at least 120 km (75 miles). This is higher than the 80 km (50 miles) required of a zero-emission vehicle;
2. The auxiliary power unit (APU) must provide range less than or equal to battery range;
3. The APU must not be capable of switching on until the battery charge has been depleted;
4. The vehicle must meet super ultra low emission vehicle (SULEV) requirements; and
5. The APU and all associated fuel systems must comply with zero evaporative emissions requirements

Think of what this all implies:

1. The engine would have to be full sized since it would have to power the EV after its battery had been depleted, instead of producing a constant 15 or 20kW and letting the BEV make up or soak up the rest.
2. It would have to meet the strictest levels of emissions on the planet, and yet only offer another 75 or 80 miles of range.
3. And last but not least. It would likely be illegal to be compatible with different years, makes and models. One designed now might not meet the emissions requirements of your 2018 year Leaf. And one built to give another 100 miles on a 30kWh Leaf would have "too much range" for a 24kWh Leaf.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The rules you quoted are to earn Zero Emission Vehicle credits for a gasoline powered car.

 

[IssacZachary]

The rules you quoted are to earn Zero Emission Vehicle credits for a gasoline powered car.

Right. But there's a difference between us do-it-yourselfers and a big corporation like Nissan making range extending trailers. They have to have those zero emissions credits. Otherwise they can't market the Leaf as a zero emissions vehicle.

It seems that such a trailer, if done correctly by Nissan, would cost some $4,000 or more to the customer.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...lifornia-set-range-requirements-engine-limits

 

[sendler2112]

I see what you are saying. BEVx creates a whole new class of vehicle. And regulators can't have blurry lines. I wondered why they put such a small gas tank in the BMW. It was regulated. They really want this to be little more than a way to limp to the next charging station. But yet the Chevy Volt gets to drive cross country on gas every day if it wants.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I see what you are saying. BEVx creates a whole new class of vehicle. And regulators can't have blurry lines. I wondered why they put such a small gas tank in the BMW. It was regulated. They really want this to be little more than a way to limp to the next charging station. But yet the Chevy Volt gets to drive cross country on gas every day if it wants.

Nissan has plenty of ZEV credits; they don't need anymore (except to be greedy).

BMW is the only company that gets ZEV credit for a gasoline burning car.

The Volt gets no credit as a ZEV.

 

[IssacZachary]

I see what you are saying. BEVx creates a whole new class of vehicle. And regulators can't have blurry lines. I wondered why they put such a small gas tank in the BMW. It was regulated. They really want this to be little more than a way to limp to the next charging station. But yet the Chevy Volt gets to drive cross country on gas every day if it wants.

Nissan has plenty of ZEV credits; they don't need anymore (except to be greedy).

BMW is the only company that gets ZEV credit for a gasoline burning car.

The Volt gets no credit as a ZEV.

True. But if Nissan started adding ICE's to all their Leafs they could lose all those credits. The bureaucracy wouldn't be happy with Nissan. Any ICE associated with low emissions will get great scrutiny. Look at what happened to VW and their "clean diesel" technology, or lack of it. Imagine the news, "Nissan scandal! Nissan sells EV's only to add polluting gasoline engines on them!" Now I could go get an air-cooled V-twin off of Northern Tool and Equipment for $1,000, strap a chain drive from it to a wheel and add a tow hitch to my Leaf and have a range extender. But. Nissan couldn't do the same thing and get away with it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well, that's something you don't have to worry about. Nissan (nor any another auto manufacturer) is going to build or offer such a contraption.

 

[IssacZachary]

What would the general consensus be on making whatever DIY ICE range extender run on propane?

If it's in the car it won't smell (unless there's a leak) like gasoline does.

It could possibly get better emissions than gasoline or diesel.

Kohler makes an EFI 20hp propane engine.

But propane can be a pain to source and buy in some areas, especially on a weekend cruise, unless you want to pay $5 per gallon.

 

[TonyWilliams]

For the Just-Drive-The-Prius(tm) crowd who are scraping up their last pennies for every single drive, I suspect they're only interested in doing things the cheapest possible way.

But if you want to do it correctly, CNG or propane are probably the best emissions compromise. You can buy it everywhere and it's cheap, relatively speaking. Propane will store for years. The storage tanks are also dirt cheap.

We can buy propane in 5 gallon tanks at our local grocery stores, That's probably the best way to do it; swappable five gallon tanks. I'm not sure, but I'm reasonably confident that these tanks require a DOT label for transport since they are used in travel trailers and the like.

The energy content of 1 gallon of propane is significantly lower than gasoline (27kWh -vs- 33kWh for gasoline), but a 15 to 20 hp motor can easily push the car and hopefully operate at 30 miles per gallon... maybe?

150 miles of range = 5 gallons * 30mpg

These kind of motors only make their rated power at their maximum RPM - usually 3600.

So, you would have to gear it so that the car could operate at AT cruise speed at 3600 rpm. Then, since these have governors, you would need a way to regulate power, plus remote start, and some kind of automatic clutch, etc. Kind of clunky.

 

[jjeff]

For the Just-Drive-The-Prius(tm) crowd who are scraping up their last pennies for every single drive, I suspect they're only interested in doing things the cheapest possible way.

But if you want to do it correctly, CNG or propane are probably the best emissions compromise. You can buy it everywhere and it's cheap, relatively speaking. Propane will store for years. The storage tanks are also dirt cheap.

We can buy propane in 5 gallon tanks at our local grocery stores, That's probably the best way to do it; swappable five gallon tanks. I'm not sure, but I'm reasonably confident that these tanks require a DOT label for transport since they are used in travel trailers and the like.

The energy content of 1 gallon of propane is significantly lower than gasoline (27kWh -vs- 33kWh for gasoline), but a 15 to 20 hp motor can easily push the car and hopefully operate at 30 miles per gallon... maybe?

150 miles of range = 5 gallons * 30mpg

These kind of motors only make their rated power at their maximum RPM - usually 3600.

So, you would have to gear it so that the car could operate at AT cruise speed at 3600 rpm. Then, since these have governors, you would need a way to regulate power, plus remote start, and some kind of automatic clutch, etc. Kind of clunky.

When you say "5 gallon tank" are you talking about a 20lb tank? I've always thought propane to be high priced for what it does. I mean in my area a 20lb propane tank runs $20 refilled or exchanged(maybe a bit less refilled) but still $20 to go 150 miles.....lets see for a petrol car to go 150 miles at 30mpg it would equal 5 gallons, which is currently a little over $2/gallon in my area or half price of propane......yes you'd also have to worry about transporting the propane tank, I don't think DOT would be kosher with such an arrangement. Of course it might be OK for a individual to do it, who would know until an accident happened......but then theirs the insurance to consider....