Trailer batteries or gensets for Leafs?

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TonyWilliams said:
Listen, I think your ideas are nutty, as well as dangerous. That guy that you quoted as "this is how to tap into" deadly 400vdc burned his car to the ground. Look it up. Yes, people get dead and burn cars (and houses) to the ground when "messing" with EV batteries.
Do you have proof it's the same guy? I have seen that attributed to him but no proof and nothing on his youtube channel. If you do have it I want to see it I am interested in these things.

The method used to connect to the 400v battery was not safe at all, but that isn't what burned the car down.
A parallel connection like that is the best way, however there should be circuits integrated that will prevent backflow, circuit breakers, etc. If you want to stick an ICE generator on your Leaf, you will need to tap that 400VDC line, there's really no other way that's not overly complex and inefficient.

Putting 300 pounds of anything on a roof of a car is even MORE dumb. Yes, all that mass on the roof will kill aerodynamics.
Mass will not kill aerodynamics. Mass will kill handling. Drag will kill aerodynamics. I am prepared to make sacrifices in modifying a car like this, as anyone should be.

If you had actually studied the Toyota trailer (built by AC Propulsion in San Dimas, California), you would know that it was specifically designed to back up. It also used an expensive aircraft APU for the generator.
Because it was such a horrible design to attempt to reverse without assistance. Will your DIY trailer feature automatic steering?

The more I think about it, the more a mono wheel pusher trailer with an electric drive motor, powered by an off-the-shelf Honda or Yamaha generator will get the job done. It could be propane powered (common for generators), fuel that you can get in any town, even grocery stores in California.

The mono-wheel would be a caster, powered by an in-hub AC drive motor. With the assembly in a common 2" trailer receiver, you could back up and not even know it's back there. The simple generator can be used at home, camping, or just charging the car somewhere. But, normally it would be power the drive motor as a pusher trailer.

No high voltage DC, easy to connect to the car. You would need a cable to the drivers seat to control the motor. Maybe something electronically connected to the gas pedal to adjust power. Simple on / off switch. Light to let you know fuel status, on/off, power output.
Brilliant, even better. Let's see you make it happen. Not only do you have all the complexity of the generator and DC converter, but now you have to build it into something on a single caster wheel that will balance by itself and take bumps and bounces and have some sort of controller for it that will integrate with the Leaf's throttle and braking. Wow yeah that's so much simpler than my idea of using the exact same receiver hitch to just bolt it on the car :roll:
 
TonyWilliams said:
The more I think about it, the more a mono wheel pusher trailer with an electric drive motor, powered by an off-the-shelf Honda or Yamaha generator will get the job done. It could be propane powered (common for generators), fuel that you can get in any town, even grocery stores in California.

The mono-wheel would be a caster, powered by an in-hub AC drive motor. With the assembly in a common 2" trailer receiver, you could back up and not even know it's back there. The simple generator can be used at home, camping, or just charging the car somewhere. But, normally it would be power the drive motor as a pusher trailer.

No high voltage DC, easy to connect to the car. You would need a cable to the drivers seat to control the motor. Maybe something electronically connected to the gas pedal to adjust power. Simple on / off switch. Light to let you know fuel status, on/off, power output.

A pusher trailer has several advantages over a tap-in-to-400V-DC generator setup. But may I make a few suggestions.

First of all, direct drive would be cheaper, lighter and more efficient. You also get the advantage with a single gear ratio that the torque output is rather constant, giving more or less an exact push output at any speed within its operation range. It could be made very simple, a chain drive to a single wheeled trailer with a one-way sprag clutch. You simply start the engine when you need an extra push and then turn it off when you don't need it. The sprag clutch will automatically engage and disengauge, except when backing up. But hopefully you won't have to do a lot of backing up.

Second, instead of a caster wheel, hook the trailer up by means of a U-joint at the hitch. Yes, it won't be backup proof like a caster wheel. But it would be less complex and more reliable. And even more importantly, it would tend to point the right way more. by having the axis closer to the rear wheel axle you reduce the risk of oversteer from the extra force during operation.

Yes, both ideas aren't favorable for backing up. But usually when you are on a long trip you don't do much backing up, unless you want to go from charging station to charging station and try not to use your ICE pusher trailer.

The great thing about any pusher trailer is that it's universal. You don't have to worry if the next generation Leaf that you get has a completely different voltage or not. The pusher trailer could be used to push an ICE vehicle. Even if you added a battery pack and hooked it up to a motorized wheel and made it a pusher, you still could transfer it from any vehicle to any vehicle.
 
VitaminJ said:
Because it was such a horrible design to attempt to reverse without assistance.
I don't get what's the matter with driving with a trailer. I guess I just have too much experience doing it. A simple bright colored antenna that could even be made retractable for aerodynamic reasons that is used to see in your rearview mirror where the trailer is starting to point would make it easy to maneuver a tiny trailer. Wait a minute. On my SL there's a backup camera. So with a backup camera it should be easy!
 
VitaminJ said:
A parallel connection like that is the best way, however there should be circuits integrated that will prevent backflow, circuit breakers, etc. If you want to stick an ICE generator on your Leaf, you will need to tap that 400VDC line, there's really no other way that's not overly complex and inefficient.

You might not know that my company actually designs and BUILDS connections to 400v batteries with our JdeMO fast charging hardware? That crude connection is dumb and dangerous. I don't make this observation as a bystander.

My ICE generator proposal doesn't connect to 400vdc. It either powers an AC onboard charger or it powers an AC motor at the caster mounted drive wheel.


Mass will not kill aerodynamics. Mass will kill handling. Drag will kill aerodynamics. I am prepared to make sacrifices in modifying a car like this, as anyone should be.


I didn't say mass killed aerodynamics. I said all that mass mounted on the roof >>>>IN THE AIRFLOW<<<< would kill aerodynamics. Again, dumb and not worth continuing to debate.


Because it was such a horrible design to attempt to reverse without assistance. Will your DIY trailer feature automatic steering?


My proposal doesn't need steering at all. That's why there is a wheel caster. The receiver mount does not articulate... it merely goes up and down with the roadway. You just back up.


Brilliant, even better. Let's see you make it happen. Not only do you have all the complexity of the generator and DC converter, but now you have to build it into something on a single caster wheel that will balance by itself and take bumps and bounces and have some sort of controller for it that will integrate with the Leaf's throttle and braking. Wow yeah that's so much simpler than my idea of using the exact same receiver hitch to just bolt it on the car :roll:


Why would there be a DC converter? The drive motor is AC, and easily controllable. If you think you're going to dump a bunch of amps into an EV without any type of control, let me show you a video of a burnt to the ground Nissan LEAF. Regardless of what method is used as a "range extender", basic safety and prudence is paramount.

There would not be any control of braking required. I only mentioned throttle control. The pusher needs to know when to go and by how much, and when to stop. Not rocket science. Anything less is dangerous... and dumb.

Suspension and "balance" is so generic in design work, it's in virtually every method of transport... even a wheel barrow. Again, almost an afterthought in the concept.

I just learned that sail boats need nice little generators:

http://www.polarpower.com/products/dc-generators/#tab-id-5

http://www.polarpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/dim1-1024x872.jpg
 
IssacZachary said:
The great thing about any pusher trailer is that it's universal. You don't have to worry if the next generation Leaf that you get has a completely different voltage or not. The pusher trailer could be used to push an ICE vehicle. Even if you added a battery pack and hooked it up to a motorized wheel and made it a pusher, you still could transfer it from any vehicle to any vehicle.

Universal means anybody could be using it... even people who can't back up with a trailer (especially a short coupled one!).

I suspect a modern, extremely low cost motorcycle engine is best for the direct drive / chain driven model. It would be relatively easy to control power with a servo and gas pedal controller.

How about just shift into neutral to back up?
 
Man! I hate frauds! There's a Yamaha EF6300ise supposedly for sale for $499 on Amazon. It's too good to be true but I just can't get it out of my mind! That thing would totally work as a remote generator along with an upgraded EVSE. Stick on a trailer, drive to the North Rim of the Black Canyon, and then let it charge as we explore. But I just can't get it out of my mind!
 
TonyWilliams said:
IssacZachary said:
The great thing about any pusher trailer is that it's universal. You don't have to worry if the next generation Leaf that you get has a completely different voltage or not. The pusher trailer could be used to push an ICE vehicle. Even if you added a battery pack and hooked it up to a motorized wheel and made it a pusher, you still could transfer it from any vehicle to any vehicle.

Universal means anybody could be using it... even people who can't back up with a trailer (especially a short coupled one!).

I suspect a modern, extremely low cost motorcycle engine is best for the direct drive / chain driven model. It would be relatively easy to control power with a servo and gas pedal controller.

How about just shift into neutral to back up?
The motorcycle would also be EPA and CARB approved.
 
TonyWilliams said:
You might not know that my company actually designs and BUILDS connections to 400v batteries with our JdeMO fast charging hardware? That crude connection is dumb and dangerous. I don't make this observation as a bystander....
Firstly, don't get snippy with me because you messed up your grammar. Secondly, let's see it. I'm done with this thread until I have my own range extender ready to show off. You have the proper qualifications right? I hope you will do the same, after hearing about your "simple" idea and your company's business it should only take you a few weeks.

TonyWilliams said:
If you think you're going to dump a bunch of amps into an EV without any type of control, let me show you a video of a burnt to the ground Nissan LEAF.
I'm still waiting for proof it's the same guy. You don't have it or what? Well if you don't have proof please stop spreading misinformation. Also, I am the only one talking about controlling the system. So far you have said you will build a one-wheel trailer with a generator directly powering an AC motor without any sort of speed controller and somehow it will also have suspension and balance on one wheel and also be able to put torque to the pavement through a free-wheeling caster wheel without it somehow spinning out of control. Theoretically this torque output is enough to push a 3200lbs Nissan Leaf at 65mph but also not enough that it will spin the caster wheel uselessly against the pavement because it only has 350lbs of weight resting on it and is free to rotate around on it's bearing. Yes, this is a brilliant idea I want to see it come to fruition as soon as possible.

IssacZachary said:
I don't get what's the matter with driving with a trailer. I guess I just have too much experience doing it. A simple bright colored antenna that could even be made retractable for aerodynamic reasons that is used to see in your rearview mirror where the trailer is starting to point would make it easy to maneuver a tiny trailer. Wait a minute. On my SL there's a backup camera. So with a backup camera it should be easy!
A trailer is unnecessary complexity in the face of pure simplicity for a reason nobody here can articulate. A trailer like the Toyota with about 2-3 feet distance between the axle and the tongue would be such a pain in the ass to reverse with. My guess is you've never had a trailer with such a short pivot point. How's the saying go? Reversing with that trailer would be like trying to push a wet noodle up a dog's ass.
 
VitaminJ said:
... A trailer like the Toyota with about 2-3 feet distance between the axle and the tongue would be such a pain in the ass to reverse with. My guess is you've never had a trailer with such a short pivot point. How's the saying go? Reversing with that trailer would be like trying to push a wet noodle up a dog's ass.

You are definitely not getting the concept at all, so it's probably best to just give it a break. I actually do have a fair amount of experience with trailers and have owned trailers for a good part of my adult life.

I'm happy to hear that you're done on this thread. You seem like a young energictic guy and I wish you the best of luck. Please don't get yourself killed or injure somebody else with your experiments.

People in this EV business, like myself, don't just build stuff for entertainment (unless they have a lot of time on their hands and a lot of money to waste). There would need to be a business model which has never been addressed in this thread. I personally don't want or need such a device, and I think the whole concept is rather silly to be honest:

1) The people who are driving a limited range car like a LEAF and can't afford to buy a proper car for the travel they intend to do aren't going to spend a whole lot of money on anything at all.

2) The people who have the money will just get the proper car for the trips they intend to drive.

Most people, however, are going to borrow, rent, or otherwise get a "real" car for those few long trips, or they are going to fly, or take a bus, or a train long before they're going to pay for something like this, or attempt to build something like this.

Since any car would have to have some minimum amount of set up (trailer hitch, roof rack for your idea), you can't even just offer it as a plug-and-play option.

Whatever hardware is used will cost many thousands of dollars (yes, hobbyists and experimenters can scrounge up something cheaper for a one-off). The people who would want to use it won't pay thousands of dollars to acquire one, and it's even unlikely they would rent it for a reasonable price. Keep in mind, I was part-owner of the very first DC fast charger on the ChargePoint network at the same time people were literally calculating whether the was cheaper to Just-Drive-The-Prius(tm) or use our charger.

So, the idea will never die and there will be guys like you're doing all kinds of fun experiments. But there is absolutely zero business model for this. From a practical standpoint, it's probably equally as dumb. The BMW i3 has a gasoline generator option already, which cost about $4000 extra and doesn't have enough power to push the car up a hill. I suspect that the people who paid the extra money for gasoline would've been just as happy to pay the extra money for additional range with a battery.

One project we are working on is additional batteries, which I think are a perfectly logical but not cheap. They would be completely transparent to the end-user, require zero maintenance, no storage, no rentals, etc. The cost is somewhere around $500-$1000 per kilowatt hour installed. The 15 to 30 kWh pack that we envision will extend range by about 45 to 90 miles.

This project is for the RAV4 EV, which already has a 125 mile range, so this will put the car very close to on par with the current 200 mile range cars out there.

People who can afford and would consider this option can also afford whatever kind of crazy fossil fuel burning pusher or generator that you can dream up. I suspect they would chose batteries over pollution and noise every day.

Good luck and stay safe.
 
Ha, thought you'd at least try to defend some of your technical ideas when challenged. Just play the "business card" instead, it's fine.

Here's my rig:
PICT0365.jpg


Looking forward to your burned up Rav4 video on youtube.
 
VitaminJ said:
Ha, thought you'd at least try to defend some of your technical ideas when challenged. Just play the "business card" instead, it's fine....
Looking forward to your burned up Rav4 video on youtube.

I think I've posted something 10,000 times on this forum? There are oodles of detailed, technical posts. I'm trying to be polite, because you don't seem to be able to follow along.

This last post just makes you look like a punk. I would not wish the loss of something of value to you, so... again, best wishes with your endeavors.
 
derkraut said:
Best to just ignore this guy, Tony; His idea of extending the range of electric cars for mass production and widespread use is silly, imho. :roll:

When someone not only constantly posts proposed ideas that not only seem quite impractical but also is also quite vulgar and dogmatic I just make good use of the foe/ignore button. You'd be surprised how much easier it then becomes to find useful information in the forum.

Anyhow, back on the topic. Some here, including me, are toying with the idea of hooking up 240V AC from the generator to the Leaf's charging system, either having to pull over and stop to charge, or adding a separate charger. But the question I have about it is if the AC has to be a pure sine wave or if a modified sine wave would be ok? It sure would make a huge difference in the price of the whole design.
 
IssacZachary said:
Anyhow, back on the topic. Some here, including me, are toying with the idea of hooking up 240V AC from the generator to the Leaf's charging system, either having to pull over and stop to charge, or adding a separate charger. But the question I have about it is if the AC has to be a pure sine wave or if a modified sine wave would be ok? It sure would make a huge difference in the price of the whole design.

Yes, blocking this guy is probably a good idea. I've only blocked two guys in almost 7 years; and in both cases, they earned it!!!

You can't go wrong with the pure sine wave inverter generator. I wouldn't try and save a few bucks with the variables of a traditional generator.

If you go to a shop to buy it, make the purchase contingent on it working on your car. If you're buying online, good luck. Your may need to spoof the ground sensing; do you know how?
 
TonyWilliams said:
You can't go wrong with the pure sine wave inverter generator. I wouldn't try and save a few bucks with the variables of a traditional generator.

If you go to a shop to buy it, make the purchase contingent on it working on your car. If you're buying online, good luck. Your may need to spoof the ground sensing; do you know how?

I was hoping to get a 240V genset. The inverter ones seem to be $4,000 and up, whereas the "dirty" sine wave ones are around $1,000.

I was looking at how to do the ground sensing mod here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5792

14381149352_c7a2bb7c72_c.jpg


14195941449_4b7d1ba245_c.jpg
 
Here is an interesting article showing some waveforms of various generator types. I wonder how critical the actual peak voltage is to the Leaf charger? A dirty brushless gen might work fine since the charger is stated to have an easy power factor. A modified sine gen might not work at all or might damage the charger if the peak voltage is much lower than spec. True sine inverter gens cost too much for this..
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http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html
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The Westinghouse WH7500E Portable Generator is a voltage regulated type. It should work fine and would also be handy to have around the house for power outages if you live out in the country. It only weighs 200 pounds so it could be carried in a hitch basket. You would have to weld in two additional "receivers" at the side plates of the hitch and matching posts on the basket to carry the weight. If it was possible to wire it in and hack the control to allow the car's charger to run while you were driving you could extend your range 50%. (disclamer for the whiners on these threads) Until quick chargers blanket the world. $760 plus a hitch which is handy to have anyway seems pretty reasonable if it could be made to work while driving.
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http://www.westinghouseportablepower.com/shop/all-products/wh7500e/
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https://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-WH7500E-Portable-Generator-Electric/dp/B009PVNAUW/ref=sr_1_7?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1485092613&sr=1-7&refinements=p_n_feature_four_browse-bin%3A3619898011
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EB10000_WF_EX5500_no-load.jpg

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sendler2112 said:
The Westinghouse WH7500E Portable Generator is a voltage regulated type. It should work fine and would also be handy to have around the house for power outages if you live out in the country. It only weighs 200 pounds so it could be carried in a hitch basket. You would have to weld in two additional "receivers" at the side plates of the hitch and matching posts on the basket to carry the weight. If it was possible to wire it in and hack the control to allow the car's charger to run while you were driving you could extend your range 50%. (disclamer for the whiners on these threads) Until quick chargers blanket the world. $760 plus a hitch which is handy to have anyway seems pretty reasonable if it could be made to work while driving.
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http://www.westinghouseportablepower.com/shop/all-products/wh7500e/
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https://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-WH7500E-Portable-Generator-Electric/dp/B009PVNAUW/ref=sr_1_7?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1485092613&sr=1-7&refinements=p_n_feature_four_browse-bin%3A3619898011
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EB10000_WF_EX5500_no-load.jpg

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Thanks a bunch!

The benefits to this idea (without hacking in order to charge while driving) is that 1) it allows us who live in areas with a poor charging infrastructure to be able to use our EV to go far every once in a while, 2) it's practically plug and play except the resistors, the EVSE upgrade and some way to hold 200lbs of tongue weight instead of 150lbs and 3) the fact that you would have to still pull over and charge would make it more or less an emergency only device because if you have the chance to plug in to a public charger you will likely opt to do that before running the noisy, polluting generator.
 
TonyWilliams said:
I think I've posted something 10,000 times on this forum? There are oodles of detailed, technical posts. I'm trying to be polite, because you don't seem to be able to follow along.

This last post just makes you look like a punk. I would not wish the loss of something of value to you, so... again, best wishes with your endeavors.
I have responded to every single technical detail you've typed and you then abandon that train of thought and start a new subject so you don't have to revisit it. You accused man on youtube of burning up his Leaf with a range extender with no proof whatsoever, I figured I'll do the same when I see a burnt up Rav4, it must have been yours...

Also your appeals to authority in place of actual logical arguments makes you seem like an egomaniac. Here it is again, referencing your 10,000 posts instead of actually answering the challenge.



Now that everyone has proclaimed they will ignore me everyone is talking about a generator in a hitch rack and no more pusher trailers :lol:

IssacZachary said:
When someone not only constantly posts proposed ideas that not only seem quite impractical but also is also quite vulgar and dogmatic I just make good use of the foe/ignore button. You'd be surprised how much easier it then becomes to find useful information in the forum.
Just to be clear, this is my impractical idea:
<span>Anyhow, back on the topic. Some here, including me, are toying with the idea of hooking up 240V AC from the generator to the Leaf's charging system, either having to pull over and stop to charge, or adding a separate <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=electric%20vehicle%20charger&tag=myelecarfor-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">charger</a>. But the question I have about it is if the AC has to be a pure sine wave or if a modified sine wave would be ok? It sure would make a huge difference in the price of the whole design.</span>

derkraut said:
Best to just ignore this guy, Tony; His idea of extending the range of electric cars for mass production and widespread use is silly, imho. :roll:
Wow, I have not said a single word about mass production and only about DIY garage tinkering. My idea is silly and yet you guys are all talking about it now!
 
Not silly to me. Especially now that I see that a practical range extension of close to 50% at highway speed could have been designed in by Nissan right from the start for an additional $1000 in hardware and a logic change to the charger.
 
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