Trailer batteries or gensets for Leafs?

[sub3marathonman]

Do you really think that Joe Q Public is going to want to deal with a generator that takes a long time to recharge (120 volt) and can't charge while the car is on??? I seriously doubt so!

Seriously, I don't know why this rental-generator-trailer thing is so insanely popular on this board. For the amount of effort that would take Nissan they could just make a 60kwh Leaf. The only way it makes sense is for the DIYer backyard builder who wants to mess around.

Wow, apparently nobody remembers "The Long Ranger!"
http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm
http://www.tzev.com/2001_rxt-g_library.html

It was commissioned by Toyota, and definitely was not a DIY hacked up project. I always thought it was a spectacular idea. But just as the "Beta" tapes with higher quality lost out to VHS for convenience, this great idea never really caught on.

And, after having the LEAF, and having 24kw of batteries degrade to less than 50% in four years of ownership, five year battery life since it sat at a dealership a year, and with the experiences of people in Phoenix and other really hot places, I'm wondering if the smaller 7kwh - 10kwh battery hybrid isn't ultimately more efficient in the long run. Even the Volt has17kwh, with 6kwh or so of "extra battery" that isn't used, just to help mask the inevitable degradation that occurs. By the end, getting LBW at 26 miles, I must have been using at most 6kwh or so, and I was still able to get by.

So, a 60kwh car could give 10 cars a 6kwh battery, and overall it seems a lot less gasoline would be consumed. Yes, those batteries might have to be replaced a bit quicker if they are cycled to a greater extent, but how many people even with the LEAF use the entire battery range every day? If the LEAF could have the option of a 10kwh battery with "The Long Ranger" and offset the purchase of 14 kwh, or 20kwh, or 50kwh (!) of batteries, and be able to have the 200 mile range, would there be a dramatic increase in buyers? I know I wouldn't mind maintaining a little 50cc engine in a trailer, but of course it would prove difficult to pull into a gas station and actually buy gasoline.

And yes, this is more of a theoretical concept at the moment, but only because the supply of batteries is sufficient to keep up with the relatively small demand of those buying EVs.

 

[VitaminJ]

Firstly, thanks for the links I hadn't known about those projects before, they are pretty cool. Secondly, you basically just proved my point. That trailer is only 350lbs and includes a bunch of unnecessary stuff like wheels that steer, trailer frame, tongue, etc. That's well within the weight tolerances of a roof rack, or like already shown in this thread; a trailer hitch cargo rack. What's with the trailer obsession?!?! :lol:

Also you are completely backwards about battery capacity. You must have a 11/12 Leaf because the pack degradation on the rest is nowhere near as bad as you claim.

On top of that the new generation of EVs launching this year and next are a huge step up. The Bolt, Leaf 2, Hyundai, Renault, etc are coming standard with 40 to 60kwh of battery for over 200 miles of range on a charge. Combined with 60kw charging places that's about 75% to the convenience of an ICE car.

The next generation after that will have more range than an ICE car with a full fuel tank, probably 300+ miles (Tesla is already doing that), and even faster charging to bring the charge time down from 20 minutes to 5 minutes, combined with even more parking with charge points. Once we're at that point then EVs are better than ICE as personal transportation.

 

[Dooglas]

I wish everybody would include some kind of location information in their user profile. It is especially relevant in discussions about battery life and degradation - as well as range, dealer support, public chargers, etc.

 

[sendler2112]

Combined with 60kw charging places that's about 75% to the convenience of an ICE car.

I have no quick charging in my area. And EV sales are a fraction of a percent even at the give away prices because you can never take one for a trip.

 

[VitaminJ]

I have no quick charging in my area. And EV sales are a fraction of a percent even at the give away prices because you can never take one for a trip.

I do not understand the point of this post other than you just want to disagree with me. I was painting a picture of the future and you reply with ideas based on the past.

 

[IssacZachary]

The next generation after that will have more range than an ICE car with a full fuel tank, probably 300+ miles (Tesla is already doing that), and even faster charging to bring the charge time down from 20 minutes to 5 minutes, combined with even more parking with charge points. Once we're at that point then EVs are better than ICE as personal transportation.

Will I certainly do hope so. But 300 miles is a low ICE limit. I can go over 600 miles in my 1985 Golf going 75 mph on a single tank of fuel.

But electric certainly beats ICE as far as cold starts are concerned. When you live in a cold area with anti-idling laws scraping windshields gets old real quick. And when charging gets quicker who will really care if the car gets 100 or 200 miles in range.

 

[IssacZachary]

I wish everybody would include some kind of location information in their user profile. It is especially relevant in discussions about battery life and degradation - as well as range, dealer support, public chargers, etc.

That's a good idea!

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Combined with 60kw charging places that's about 75% to the convenience of an ICE car.

I have no quick charging in my area. And EV sales are a fraction of a percent even at the give away prices because you can never take one for a trip.

Hopefully that will change soon.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/go...-state-install-over-500-new-charging-stations

<span>

The next generation after that will have more range than an ICE car with a full fuel tank, probably 300+ miles (<a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=67" class="interlinkr">Tesla<span class="tip">Visit the Tesla Forum</span></a> is already doing that), and even faster charging to bring the charge time down from 20 minutes to 5 minutes, combined with even more parking with charge points. Once we're at that point then EVs are better than ICE as personal transportation.

</span>

Will I certainly do hope so. But 300 miles is a low ICE limit. I can go over 600 miles in my 1985 Golf going 75 mph on a single tank of fuel.

But electric certainly beats ICE as far as cold starts are concerned. When you live in a cold area with anti-idling laws scraping windshields gets old real quick. And when charging gets quicker who will really care if the car gets 100 or 200 miles in range.

Yeah, 300 seemed low to me too. My CMax can go over 600 miles on a full charge + full tank.

EVs already are better than than ICEs within about 1.5x their single-charge radius (provided abundant QCs). You start each day (maybe even each trip) with a full charge. With an ICE, you have to go out of your way for fuel every time.

 

[silverone]

My feeling is that if you are contemplating such a thing, you bought the wrong car!

Being a Volt and Leaf owner I concur. Neither car can be everything to everybody.

The fortunate thing is that used prices on both have declined to where you can relatively cheaply sample the other "flavor". This would go for the i3 REx as well, although prices in my area haven't dropped precipitously enough yet.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Firstly, thanks for the links I hadn't known about those projects before, they are pretty cool. Secondly, you basically just proved my point. That trailer is only 350lbs and includes a bunch of unnecessary stuff like wheels that steer, trailer frame, tongue, etc. That's well within the weight tolerances of a roof rack, or like already shown in this thread; a trailer hitch cargo rack. What's with the trailer obsession?!?! :lol:

Also you are completely backwards about battery capacity. You must have a 11/12 Leaf because the pack degradation on the rest is nowhere near as bad as you claim.

OK, I don't know how that proves that even 200 lbs should be up in a roof rack, I think the LEAF designers would cringe calculating what that did to the cd. I could see possibly in the cargo rack. But I think what Toyota understood is that a very small trailer is easily hitched and unhitched, so the slight additional cost of a license plate would be more than worth the ease of usage, versus lifting 200 lbs on and off a cargo rack.

It is true that I have a 2011 LEAF, with the batteries replaced under warranty, so now, at just over 60K miles, I have essentially no battery degradation. So if these degrade at the same rate as the 2013 and later, I am ahead of many others.

However, I'm thinking that others are considering the battery capacity of the LEAF in a narrowly focused manner, absolute zero usage of gasoline to them. It isn't necessarily wrong, as I am of the opinion that people, including me, can choose to have a true EV. I am thinking though of the theoretical, all-encompassing goal of reducing gasoline consumption, along with the finite amount of potential batteries that can be manufactured. If eight times as many people would buy a Ford energy or the equivalent, 7.5 kwh of battery with an engine for longer trips, maybe getting 80 mpg overall, as opposed to one 60 kwh LEAF at zero gasoline and seven cars getting 30 mpg. In my theoretical, mpg estimate unscientifically chosen example, it would result in 23,333 gallons used with the 60 kwh LEAF, and 8,750 gallons used with the batteries distributed among the eight vehicles.

Now, I will admit that I did start thinking more about that because of my situation prior to the warranty replacement, seven capacity bars gone, five remaining, with about 6kwh or so to LBW. It will be a bit difficult for LEAF owners to end up paying $0.10/mile for battery replacement, and even $0.05/mile is noticeable. Now, a 50cc motorcycle engine might not be built to close enough standards to last 100k miles, but my Honda Rebel 250 did, and a rebuild at that point should be reasonable, and it wouldn't be a massive bill at one time as buying 60kwh of batteries for a ten year old LEAF. Already people are questioning the economic sense with a 5-year-old LEAF and a $6K battery.

 

[VitaminJ]

OK, I don't know how that proves that even 200 lbs should be up in a roof rack, I think the LEAF designers would cringe calculating what that did to the cd. I could see possibly in the cargo rack. But I think what Toyota understood is that a very small trailer is easily hitched and unhitched, so the slight additional cost of a license plate would be more than worth the ease of usage, versus lifting 200 lbs on and off a cargo rack.

My point was that a trailer is unnecessary and overly complicated for the job at hand. I underestimated the size of an adequate generator, but that Toyota Longer Ranger proves that the required generator, fuel, and DC conversion is all possible under 350lbs which means that a 1000lbs trailer is totally overkill. A roof box would increase frontal area, but their cd is usually quite small. In fact, roof boxes have very little effect on most cars unless travelling at high speeds that an EV wouldn't be driven at. A roof box is more convenient for the driver than a trailer hitch cargo rack in every single way except ultimate efficiency. Both beat the trailer by a good amount. If efficiency is the goal, 4 wheels are better than 6 any day.

 

[IssacZachary]

My point was that a trailer is unnecessary and overly complicated for the job at hand. I underestimated the size of an adequate generator, but that Toyota Longer Ranger proves that the required generator, fuel, and DC conversion is all possible under 350lbs which means that a 1000lbs trailer is totally overkill. A roof box would increase frontal area, but their cd is usually quite small. In fact, roof boxes have very little effect on most cars unless travelling at high speeds that an EV wouldn't be driven at. A roof box is more convenient for the driver than a trailer hitch cargo rack in every single way except ultimate efficiency. Both beat the trailer by a good amount. If efficiency is the goal, 4 wheels are better than 6 any day.

Where are you getting your information? Have you ever done the math yourself?

A roof rack with a generator on it would reduce the mileage horribly. Those Thule roof containers and such hurt mileage horribly. I've had the chance to test a Thule roof container on and off of a vehicle and the results were exactly what the math said from the beginning, horrible. We're talking a 20% loss, or even possibly more, in range at 60mph.

A trailer makes a whole lot more sense. And a 1,000lb GVWR 40" x 48" trailer with 10" or 12" wheels might be a bit overkill. But you'll have a hard time finding one that's smaller.Example Maybe look into a motorcycle trailer?

But in my own option, the best choice would be a rack off of the hitch. It wouldn't hardly have any affect there on aerodynamic drag and wouldn't create any more rolling resistance. The yamaha ef6300isde puts out enough juice to charge at level 2 and only weighs 200lbs. However, if you do get much bigger so that you can charge and drive you will need a trailer. A trailer will cause a while lot less overall drag than a roof mounted generator at highway speeds.

 

[jjeff]

My point was that a trailer is unnecessary and overly complicated for the job at hand. I underestimated the size of an adequate generator, but that Toyota Longer Ranger proves that the required generator, fuel, and DC conversion is all possible under 350lbs which means that a 1000lbs trailer is totally overkill. A roof box would increase frontal area, but their cd is usually quite small. In fact, roof boxes have very little effect on most cars unless travelling at high speeds that an EV wouldn't be driven at. A roof box is more convenient for the driver than a trailer hitch cargo rack in every single way except ultimate efficiency. Both beat the trailer by a good amount. If efficiency is the goal, 4 wheels are better than 6 any day.

Where are you getting your information? Have you ever done the math yourself?

A roof rack with a generator on it would reduce the mileage horribly. Those Thule roof containers and such hurt mileage horribly. I've had the chance to test a Thule roof container on and off of a vehicle and the results were exactly what the math said from the beginning, horrible. We're talking a 20% loss, or even possibly more, in range at 60mph.

A trailer makes a whole lot more sense. And a 1,000lb GVWR 40" x 48" trailer with 10" or 12" wheels might be a bit overkill. But you'll have a hard time finding one that's smaller.Example Maybe look into a motorcycle trailer?

But in my own option, the best choice would be a rack off of the hitch. It wouldn't hardly have any affect there on aerodynamic drag and wouldn't create any more rolling resistance. The yamaha ef6300isde puts out enough juice to charge at level 2 and only weighs 200lbs. However, if you do get much bigger so that you can charge and drive you will need a trailer. A trailer will cause a while lot less overall drag than a roof mounted generator at highway speeds.

Totally agree, I've used roof racks, and even ones that claimed to be aerodynamic and none were they effected my mileage terribly, not to mention the wind noise! The vehicle I used a roof rack the most on was a small SUV driven on the freeway, normally 65-70 but with the roof rack I had to dial it down to 55-60 and even that dropped my fuel economy several MPG(~ 15%) less than 65-70 without the rack(or ~ 20% less under same conditions). I've since then sold the roof rack and only use my cargo rack which doesn't seem to effect the mileage in the least. Only issue with the cargo rack is I'd personally not carry more than ~150lbs on it(1 1/4 receiver) which would kind of prohibit large generator use
Now if you had a larger vehicle that had a 2" receiver I'd feel comfortable carrying the ~250# that a large generator would be but not a 1 1/4" hanging out as far as receiver racks do.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Nothing like a projectile generator in an accident. This entire discussion of roof generators, pushers, and pack trailers is really silly. Best of luck to the very few that take all the time and money to do this properly. Those messing with HV pack lines, best of luck and be safe as people have been killed working on LEAF packs in the past. Don't touch this stuff unless you are qualified.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Those messing with HV pack lines, best of luck and be safe as people have been killed working on LEAF packs in the past. Don't touch this stuff unless you are qualified.

I'll clarify for my statements, I am not advocating anything even remotely close to modifying the HV pack lines, or anything else with the batteries.

I have shown though, that this is truly a viable, legitimate idea, as Toyota has worked on it. And even with a DIY little modified trailer, I have envisioned using it when you'd stop at a restaurant or for a driving break, not travelling down the road at 80 mph while charging, and as more of a personal portable EVSE.

I've stated my theory also, that in the overall scheme of things, and after having a 24kwh pack degrade within four years of ownership on my 2011 LEAF, that pure EVs, such as the LEAF, and proposed EVs, such as a 60kwh LEAF, might not be the best allocation of a scarce resource. At the moment the batteries aren't scarce, but at some point they might be.

There is also the perception by the public that any EV, no matter a 100kwh pack, will leave them stranded. Logical? No, and how many people have run out of gas? The EV is in fact much better, as it shows a "Turtle Mode" allowing you at least a bit of time to pull over off the road. With an "Energi" vehicle, 7.5kwh pack and an ICE, this unreasonable fear would be eliminated, and if pricing was set to encourage strong sales, it would convert a multitude of people. Somewhat like putting your big toe into the ocean before going swimming.

The LEAF has also been able to achieve a bit of payback for Nissan in the fact that in all these model years, there has been no significant redesign, thus saving a major amount of investment. If an automaker could sell such an older, outdated EV at some point, dropping the battery requirement by a third or more, and putting a little trailer hitch on the back, it would seem to me as an extremely logical way to get even more return on the initial investment. Maybe not the stunning profit of a $50K pickup truck, but still a profit. That would also put more spare parts out to a market with a small number of vehicles, making them a bit more desirable, instead of a vehicle with a $1K headlight. And yes, maybe not $1K, but there was a time when the Prius was first out there that thieves were stealing headlights from people.

 

[VitaminJ]

Anyone in this thread talking about charging while driving is in some way or another advocating for "messing" with the HV lines. How else will you make it work? For reference, this is how you will have to tap into the Leaf's 400v DC line to add your generator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGoSO_uRXs

Again, you've been burned by your battery experience, but it's just not the case anymore. I just bought a 4 year old Leaf and it's got 21.8kwh at full charge, 12 bars, will do 80+ miles easy, original battery.

Lithium batteries are made from carbon, graphite, aluminum, and lithium salts. None of these things are especially rare or expensive and should not be treated as such.

I would be interested in reading more about the people killed by Leaf batteries, EVDRIVER. I've never heard such a thing before. Do you have the news article you referenced?

My experience with roof boxes is nowhere near as bad as what's been posted here, either. Regardless, I still think a trailer is a joke. Maybe you guys just like trailers, I've towed a lot of trailers, it's nothing special trust me. A tiny trailer like that Toyota one would be an absolute nightmare to reverse with also, you'd end up backing over it eventually. Can't park in a normal parking spot either so that means no public EV charging places, you can't use them while hooked up. I think hooking up a 300lbs generator roof rack or hitch rack once per rare-long-distance-journey is more convenient than unhooking your trailer every time you need do something like park.

 

[IssacZachary]

People modify their ICE vehicles all the time which can cause explosions, fires, electric shock, asphyxiation, poisoning, physical injury, etc. etc. etc. and yet people still do it.

Yes, a BEV is an entirely different animal. And whoever works on them needs to know what they're doing. But I don't see anything wrong with modifying them if you take the necessary precautions.

 

[IssacZachary]

My experience with roof boxes is nowhere near as bad as what's been posted here, either. Regardless, I still think a trailer is a joke. Maybe you guys just like trailers, I've towed a lot of trailers, it's nothing special trust me. A tiny trailer like that Toyota one would be an absolute nightmare to reverse with also, you'd end up backing over it eventually. Can't park in a normal parking spot either so that means no public EV charging places, you can't use them while hooked up. I think hooking up a 300lbs generator roof rack or hitch rack once per rare-long-distance-journey is more convenient than unhooking your trailer every time you need do something like park.

You know you do have some very good points. There are disadvantages with a trailer. And a roof rack is an option. But a roof rack will hurt aerodynamic drag a whole lot more than a trailer at highway speeds. Yes, lots of people use them and don't notice the difference. A 15% to 30% decrease in fuel mileage may not be that noticeable to those who aren't paying attention. But in a Leaf that will be definitely noticeable.

Plus ICE engines ironically become more efficient at higher loads. So if you increase the aerodynamic drag you not only do that but you increase the engine efficiency as well. But that's not the case in a BEV. This is why a BEV like a Leaf gets its best mileage at a very low speed like 12mph, whereas an ICE car gets its best efficiency at 30, 35 or 40mph. Any slower in an ICE the efficiency loss in the engine starts to outweigh the loss of drag. Because of this effect a roof rack might only drop the fuel economy and range of an ICE vehicle by 10%, but in an identical BEV it could drop it 20% because the ICE is at the same time increasing in efficiency but the electric motor is likely decreasing in efficiency.

But on some cases it may be more practical to have a roof rack than a trailer. Let me put it this way.

• If you can, put the generator inside the vehicle. That will have the least impact on the aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance.
• If that's not possible, a hitch mounted rack behind the Leaf is the best place to put a generator. Of course a the tongue weight shouldn't be more than 150lbs do you may have to improvise with some straps.
• If you can't use a hitch mounted rack a trailer will have little impact on the aerodynamic drag and only incur some rolling resistance, but not much. Obviously you'll have to pay for trailer plates and tags, have a harder time backing up and may not be able to park in some many places unless you have a really small trailer.
• A roof rack might work if none of the above works for you. But this will take the greatest toll on aerodynamic drag. Expect at least a 20% drop in electric-only range unless you drive around at only 25mph or slower. Also the weight on top of the car could prove to be a problem, not only with the handing, but how are you supposed to get a 350lb generator up there,

 

[VitaminJ]

People modify their ICE vehicles all the time which can cause explosions, fires, electric shock, asphyxiation, poisoning, physical injury, etc. etc. etc. and yet people still do it.

Yes, a BEV is an entirely different animal. And whoever works on them needs to know what they're doing. But I don't see anything wrong with modifying them if you take the necessary precautions.

Total agreement here! :mrgreen: I find it almost irresistible not to mess around with my cars and there's no way the Leaf is an exception. I have a whole line of mods I've been thinking of and a range extender is just another one, I don't even require it the Leaf is my 3rd car :lol:

Like I said, I put up the roof rack concept before I saw that Leaf with a tow hitch rack. I actually had forgotten those existed and was using the 2nd best thing. Before I decided to get a Leaf I had thought about converting a couple different ICE cars to electric and using a roof rack to hold extra batteries. Like I said 20% range reduction is more than I've had in my experience using a Subaru Forester, my mpg didn't noticeably change still got around 26-28mpg, but that's a pretty inefficient car to start with.

Btw, I've been noticing tons of CO folks on this board lately, we should have a mountain meet up somewhere (with charging) this spring.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Anyone in this thread talking about charging while driving is in some way or another advocating for "messing" with the HV lines. How else will you make it work? For reference, this is how you will have to tap into the Leaf's 400v DC line to add your generator...
I would be interested in reading more about the people killed by Leaf batteries, EVDRIVER. I've never heard such a thing before. Do you have the news article you referenced?

My experience with roof boxes is nowhere near as bad as what's been posted here, either. Regardless, I still think a trailer is a joke. Maybe you guys just like trailers, I've towed a lot of trailers, it's nothing special trust me. A tiny trailer like that Toyota one would be an absolute nightmare to reverse with also, you'd end up backing over it eventually. Can't park in a normal parking spot either so that means no public EV charging places, you can't use them while hooked up. I think hooking up a 300lbs generator roof rack or hitch rack once per rare-long-distance-journey is more convenient than unhooking your trailer every time you need do something like park.

Listen, I think your ideas are nutty, as well as dangerous. That guy that you quoted as "this is how to tap into" deadly 400vdc burned his car to the ground. Look it up. Yes, people get dead and burn cars (and houses) to the ground when "messing" with EV batteries.

The method used to connect to the 400v battery was not safe at all, but that isn't what burned the car down.

Putting 300 pounds of anything on a roof of a car is even MORE dumb. Yes, all that mass on the roof will kill aerodynamics.

If you had actually studied the Toyota trailer (built by AC Propulsion in San Dimas, California), you would know that it was specifically designed to back up. It also used an expensive aircraft APU for the generator.

The more I think about it, the more a mono wheel pusher trailer with an electric drive motor, powered by an off-the-shelf Honda or Yamaha generator will get the job done. It could be propane powered (common for generators), fuel that you can get in any town, even grocery stores in California.

The mono-wheel would be a caster, powered by an in-hub AC drive motor. With the assembly in a common 2" trailer receiver, you could back up and not even know it's back there. The simple generator can be used at home, camping, or just charging the car somewhere. But, normally it would be power the drive motor as a pusher trailer.

No high voltage DC, easy to connect to the car. You would need a cable to the drivers seat to control the motor. Maybe something electronically connected to the gas pedal to adjust power. Simple on / off switch. Light to let you know fuel status, on/off, power output.