Tesla Model X

[GRA]

...the price of each successive Tesla—Roadster, Model S and now Model X—has gone up, not down.

That's a silly hit-piece. And the above assertion is easily shown to be incorrect.
The Roadster had a base price of $109,000.
The Tesla Model S 60 had an MSRP of $69,900
The Model X is just an SUV version of the same platform.
The Model 3 has always been the planned next-step-lower vehicle.

Tesla is a startup attempting to enter a really tough, well-established market. Frankly, I'm surprised they've managed to stay in business. They're doing some very difficult stuff, and doing it very well. They need to make enough money off the current platform to help fund the development of the Model 3. The Model X *is* progress - it convinces lots of "spoiled-debutantes" to invest in the development of the Model 3.

While it's possible to disagree with his assertion re prices, I have considerable sympathy for his view that Tesla has been taking steps that delay the Model 3, primary of which was the decision to go with the heavy, expensive, complicated and unnecessary Falcon Wing doors on the Model X, which both delayed its introduction and pushed up the cost considerably. Given the number of common subsystems, you've got to wonder if the Model X could have been produced for the same or less as a Model S if it had used conventional doors, and gotten it onto the market a year or two sooner. That would have allowed Tesla to continue selling high profit margin cars to finance future growth, but wouldn't have incurred as much R&D expense and time as has been the case, leaving more capital to develop the Model 3 (and Gigafactory) earlier.

I think the X's range and performance are more important for most people than the "Hey, look at me, I'm special!" doors, at least among people with sub-stratospheric incomes, and the lack of folding 2nd row seats just underlines that the Model X is aimed more at image than utility. Given that it will have BEV CUV competition from major automakers within a few years, and already has PHEV CUV competition, I have to wonder if this is a really major mis-step by Tesla. I guess we'll see once they run through the Sig/P reservation holders whether people with a more practical outlook will find it acceptable. Not that any car as expensive as this one (even for its base model) is aimed at the 'best value for the money' crowd - if you can afford it, its operating costs aren't a rational concern.

 

[scottf200]

I really like almost every feature except I don't understand the "use cases" for the auto front doors. 6 seats will work great with plenty of room for most cases. I've carried long things occasionally in my Ford Expedition but just passed them between the captains chairs and I'll do the same with the model X.

I happy to support his company that has made such a significant difference in EVs to the public perception. Otherwise the perception is like some funny looking EVs that are out there.

I invested solidly for 25+ years and have been pretty frugal during that time. Lot of sacrifices to get where I am today. Enjoying life now and supporting various causes and a handful companies that make a difference. Win-Win.

 

[Zythryn]

I'm wondering if the automatic opening and closing front door is targeted more at China?

 

[scottf200]

I'm wondering if the automatic opening and closing front door is targeted more at China?

Which is one of the main things I thought about for the advanced filtering system. I suspect it will get some great reviews for people traveling on busy streets, stop-n-go traffic, and in the certainly in the badly polluted cities. Then there are people with allergies which is pretty large.

Tesla Model X presentation slide:

Disturbing pictures related to China

 

[GRA]

I'm wondering if the automatic opening and closing front door is targeted more at China?

Which is one of the main things I thought about for the advanced filtering system. I suspect it will get some great reviews for people traveling on busy streets, stop-n-go traffic, and in the certainly in the badly polluted cities. Then there are people with allergies which is pretty large. <snip images>

From what I've read, the people in China who can likely afford these cars are almost certainly employing chauffeurs, so I doubt auto-opening front doors are aimed at the Chinese market. If you aren't driving it, why would you care if the hired help have to open their own doors? The filters, OTOH, are useful in any heavily polluted city, and the Chinese have no shortage of those.

 

[JasonA]

The Volvo XC90 is going to the ModelX killer. Along with the OSD that Volvo provides (Overseas Delivery) http://www.flyvolvo.com/

it's makes getting your vehicle such an amazing experience! Who cares about going up to Fremont :roll:

I'll take an EV tuned Polestar AWD EV XC90 hand built in Gothenburg and drive all around Europe over Cali any day of the week.

And for the same price as an X :lol:

 

[scottf200]

The Volvo XC90 is going to the ModelX killer. Along with the OSD that Volvo provides (Overseas Delivery) http://www.flyvolvo.com/
it's makes getting your vehicle such an amazing experience! Who cares about going up to Fremont :roll:
I'll take an EV tuned Polestar AWD EV XC90 hand built in Gothenburg and drive all around Europe over Cali any day of the week.
And for the same price as an X :lol:

Well I guess at least you did stay on the last posted topic of China.
i.e. Volvo's owner Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, based in Hangzhou China.

 

[palmermd]

The Volvo XC90 is going to the ModelX killer.

And for the same price as an X :lol:

I agree the XC90 T8 plug-in hybrid is a nice alternative, but its also a hybrid and not full electric, so it may be a slightly different buyer. It will be interesting to watch how the car buyers choose over the next year.

http://www.volvocars.com/us/buy/shopping-tools/build-your-volvo?VBSModel=256#/summary/256/813-6USGCC-90-x-en-55117916-USD-162803085-x-1186914482-1186914479-1162803138-1162803175-1162803163-1162803125-0162803101-0162803102-0162803104-0162803105-0162803107-0162803112-0162803123-0162803128-0162803149-0162803161-0162803166-0162803168-0171034110-0171034112-0171111146-1162803129-1162803172-1162803193-1162803210-1186915775

 

[JasonA]

Go on the TMC forums and see the # of people already bailout out and talking about the XC90 as their new go to vehicle now.

 

[scottf200]

Go on the TMC forums and see the # of people already bailout out and talking about the XC90 as their new go to vehicle now.

XC90 (Volvo's owner Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, based in Hangzhou China)
From TMC Freshes:

10 to 20 miles with a 9.9kWh total battery capacity.
But the electric motor only drives the rear wheels and the ICE only drives the front.
Thus, to be in AWD mode, both the ICE and the EV motor must be in use.

 

[Nubo]

...even after the champagne and euphoria were out of their systems, not one journalist called Tesla on its blatant bait-and-switch; to note that the price of each successive Tesla—Roadster, Model S and now Model X—has gone up, not down.

http://the-drive-web-develop.elasticbeanstalk.com/article/369/sorry-friends-but-the-tesla-model-x-isnt-progress

Total BS, since the Model S was available for a far lower price than Roadster, despite being a much more substantial and refined vehicle with larger battery capacity. The model X was never presented as something that would be cheaper than Model S. There's no bait and switch, just someone trying to fling some ideological monkey poo. Although they telegraph it pretty well with "...spoiled-debutante party...". As for the rest of the article it's full of false equivalencies, outright misstatement of facts, and class envy. Hope he enjoys his Volt, which apparently nobody has ever heard of. Because, you know, media conspiracy and Elon hypnosis.

 

[GRA]

Go on the TMC forums and see the # of people already bailout out and talking about the XC90 as their new go to vehicle now.

XC90 (Volvo's owner Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, based in Hangzhou China)
From TMC Freshes:

10 to 20 miles with a 9.9kWh total battery capacity.
But the electric motor only drives the rear wheels and the ICE only drives the front.
Thus, to be in AWD mode, both the ICE and the EV motor must be in use.

Uh huh, and since CUVs aren't off-road cars, when do you really need AWD? On snow-covered roads, which is also when you want unlimited heat/defrost, so while it would be nice to have all-electric AWD, I don't see that as a major issue. It's certainly a lot less important to the "'U' stands for 'Utility', Elon, not 'Useless!'" buyers than the doors or the lack of folding 2nd row seats in the Model X. And if the XC90 doesn't work for them, the X5 xdrive40E (what idiot comes up with these designations?) is another option, with more to come.

 

[JasonA]

For once I more en' less agree with GRA. I've said once and I'll say it again, all these magazines, FB posts, GCR's, etc,etc that are calling the X an "SUV" are WRONG!

The Montero, Suburban, Tahoe, Explorer, Grand Cherokee, SantaFe, X5, MB G wagon, etc,etc,etc.. are SUV's.

NOT the Model X... it's a crossover or a bloated S with those fugly doors. And while they may LOOK cool, see how they will be after the first 6 months or so and people will grow tired of it.

People have lived without AWD for ALONG time, and while Subaru is doing well it (and is the TOP selling brand and fastest growing car company in the USA) it doesn't mean Tesla has to focus on AWD for everything.

Sure, it's nice.. but do what Subaru is doing and focus on the common people (and to those of you that say Tesla can't survive without the 1%)... Subaru is doing it....

Tesla can too... and the Model X is not going to provide the returns that went into its development... that's already a KNOWN AND GIVEN!

All this time, money and effort should have went into the M3.

Now they will be the last to the game...

As usual. :roll:

P.S. To you X fan bois out there... save it.. I've been watching enough of it on the TMC forums and you're getting slaughtered over there as well... soooo MUCH DOUBT! :lol:

 

[scottf200]

Go on the TMC forums and see the # of people already bailout out and talking about the XC90 as their new go to vehicle now.

XC90 (Volvo's owner Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, based in Hangzhou China)
From TMC Freshes:

10 to 20 miles with a 9.9kWh total battery capacity.
But the electric motor only drives the rear wheels and the ICE only drives the front.
Thus, to be in AWD mode, both the ICE and the EV motor must be in use.

Uh huh, and since CUVs aren't off-road cars, when do you really need AWD? On snow-covered roads, which is also when you want unlimited heat/defrost, so while it would be nice to have all-electric AWD, I don't see that as a major issue. It's certainly a lot less important to the "'U' stands for 'Utility', Elon, not 'Useless!'" buyers than the doors or the lack of folding 2nd row seats in the Model X. And if the XC90 doesn't work for them, the X5 xdrive40E (what idiot comes up with these designations?) is another option, with more to come.

I'm 100% happy to have plenty of range for heat and AWD. Will be great for the midwest and the northern areas where there is snow and rain that may freeze. Lot of XXD have been sold since many folks did not want a RWD. FrontWD work great like our current 2011 Volt.

We have a subaru legacy currently. That will be replaced with the FrontWD 2016 Volt in a couple months.

I consider the Model X a CUV but it seems the general public and news media refer to all these types of cars as small SUVs. 100% happy with the 6 seat configuration. Can carry all I need and what I did most often in my 2003 Ford Expedition with same configuration.

10 to 20 miles on a 9.9kWh battery and you guys are backing that up. Hmm... Telling it is.

 

[GRA]

Thus, to be in AWD mode, both the ICE and the EV motor must be in use.[/size]

Uh huh, and since CUVs aren't off-road cars, when do you really need AWD? On snow-covered roads, which is also when you want unlimited heat/defrost, so while it would be nice to have all-electric AWD, I don't see that as a major issue. It's certainly a lot less important to the "'U' stands for 'Utility', Elon, not 'Useless!'" buyers than the doors or the lack of folding 2nd row seats in the Model X. And if the XC90 doesn't work for them, the X5 xdrive40E (what idiot comes up with these designations?) is another option, with more to come.

I'm 100% happy to have plenty of range for heat and AWD. Will be great for the midwest and the northern areas where there is snow and rain that may freeze. Lot of XXD have been sold since many folks did not want a RWD.

10 to 20 miles on a 9.9kWh battery and you guys are backing that up. Hmm... Telling it is.

Yup, indicative of what's important to people who want to see the most people transition to EVs, rather than restricting it to only a small hardcore niche. Get 'em used to plugging in without the anxiety, they'll want to go more electric the next time around when range and infrastructure have increased, prices are less and there are vehicles available that better meet their utility needs. So, while there are ex-Model X reservation holders on TMC (many of whom already had a Model S so didn't need convincing re PEVs) who've cancelled because of the lack of 2nd row folding and are looking elsewhere, there's a much larger potential market for people who haven't really considered any sort of PEV, and won't be comfortable with the still very limited coverage of the current SC infrastructure. Vehicles like the XC90 and X5 etc. are the way to woo them.

 

[scottf200]

10 to 20 miles on a 9.9kWh battery and you guys are backing that up. Hmm... Telling it is.

Yup, indicative of what's important to people who want to see the most people transition to EVs, rather than restricting it to only a small hardcore niche. Get 'em used to plugging in without the anxiety, they'll want to go more electric the next time around when range and infrastructure have increased...

Sounds like me going from a 2011 Volt to a Tesla. But seriously you guys are backing 10-20 mile EV range?!?!?!? Embarrassing My old Volt still goes 40+ and our new one will go 50+ !

 

[GRA]

10 to 20 miles on a 9.9kWh battery and you guys are backing that up. Hmm... Telling it is.

Yup, indicative of what's important to people who want to see the most people transition to EVs, rather than restricting it to only a small hardcore niche. Get 'em used to plugging in without the anxiety, they'll want to go more electric the next time around when range and infrastructure have increased...

Sounds like me going from a 2011 Volt to a Tesla. But seriously you guys are backing 10-20 mile EV range?!?!?!? Embarrassing My old Volt still goes 40+ and our new one will go 50+ !

I'll back any plug-in going any amount of electric miles (even a PiP!) if it gets people positive about PEVs who would otherwise never be willing to try them. YMMV, but since you followed that progression yourself (admittedly, at a much higher price point the second time around), why would you be dismissive of it for others?

 

[scottf200]

I'll back any plug-in going any amount of electric miles (even a PiP!) if it gets people positive about PEVs who would otherwise never be willing to try them. YMMV, but since you followed that progression yourself (admittedly, at a much higher price point the second time around), why would you be dismissive of it for others?

I was/am dismissive of the PiP when I read about the people buying it just for the carpool lane sticker and never plugging it in!!!

I understand your point about the Model X vs XC90 and in this case I'm dismissive of it because they are going from a 250 mile range full BEV to a 10-20 mile PHEV. Seriously?!?! These people don't really care about running in EV mode if they are doing that. That is what I call BS on. Hope that makes more sense.

 

[JasonA]

As more updates come... and Bonnie is canceling her "so-called" tour because X production is not up to par yet :roll:

 

[scottf200]

As more updates come... and Bonnie is canceling her "so-called" tour because X production is not up to par yet

Can you point to a TMC post that specifically states that??? I did not see it.

I would not be surprised because she has multiple big dogs I think so has a different requirement than most for regular use of fold down seats.

She has a really small trailer that is well under 3500 lbs if that is what you were implying by using that TMC image.
In fact this is a quote from Bonnie about Bonnie.

The trailer Bonnie already has is definitely easy to roll around by hand (speaking from two summer's worth of experience).

Update This is from Bonnie which states she is not doing a trip/tour this Fall because she *thinks* it will be a Nov timeframe delivery. Which has nothinig to do with "up to par" implication you stated. Your remarks need to be taken with a grain of salt apparently

Just an update - since I haven't gone into production yet, I'm thinking delivery will be in the November timeframe. And that means no roadtrip this fall. Between promising a sis I'd show up and handle turkey dinner for 20+ people (bro-in-law is ill, can't currently travel, but they want to see people) and obvious Midwest weather events that start to happen in November ... going to have to stay closer to home.

Stay tuned! Will let people know as I get closer to delivery.