How people use Leaf in Europe - QC as needed

[GRA]

But we’d also expect popular routes, like the I-5 in California between Los Angeles and San Francisco, to soon see quick charging stations installed.

While that's a popular long-distance travel route, it's will only be done in a LEAF if you are extremely patient.

Here is the route for those not familiar: http://g.co/maps/n8nn4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is nearly 400 miles, typically done at high speeds of 70-80 (speed limit is 70 mph), often done in very hot temperatures nearing 100*F, and covers significant mountain climbs - Grapevine includes nearly 4,000 ft of climbing - not to mention cross winds which can be significant at times.

Let's say you are patient and limit speeds to what the trucks normally do - 60-65 mph (even though the posted truck limit is 55 mph very few do that).

Quick charge to 80% will get you 60 miles at most at those speeds. You'll likely want to top off every 50 miles because if you misjudge something, you're calling a tow truck. Distances between rest stops are typically ~30 miles, gas stations are typically also spaced similarly apart, sometimes closer. You will want to have QC stations at as many spots as possible - so probably 20-30 mi intervals if not more. Add in L2 stations for situations where you get stranded between QC stations just in case.
....
Normally, this drive takes 6-6.5 hours driven at 75 mph with 1-2 fuel/food stops and 1-2 additional bathroom stops.

How many people would be willing to add 5-6 hours to their trip along this route? There certainly isn't much along the way for any other reason to take that route.

Realistically, you're going to need a 130+mi freeway speed EV (2x range of the LEAF or more) if you're going to want to make this trek so you can cut the number of charge stops to 4 or less. The larger pack should also allow faster QC rates on average (more time spent charging at 50 kW instead of tapering off to avoid battery damage - 30 minutes could get you 25 kWh instead of 15 kWh).

Yep. I think nobody except the most hardcore Leafers would even want to do the trip even w/QC infrastructure in place. It just adds too much time to an already long trip. If one does only 70 mph on I-5 during that trip, prepare to be passed by almost everyone except big rigs.

Funny that at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=109125#p109125" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, we had a discussion about where the QC stations should be located.

FWIW, after Tesla announced/hinted that they were going to build their own network of proprietary QCs along I-5 between SF and LA, with the first apparently at Harris Ranch (185 miles from downtown SF, 196 from downtown LA), I spent a little time figuring out where they would want or need the others. At a minimum they need three to make the trip possible in all conditions for the '230' mile version of the 'S' as well as the '320' mile version - the '160' mile version apparently won't be equipped with QC.

First, lacking better info I multiplied the above ranges (stated to be at 55 mph) to likely ranges using the same ratios as the Leaf's range drop on Tony's chart between 55 and higher speeds: for 65 mph I used .84, for 70 mph I used .76, and for 75 mph I used .70. I think it unlikely the 'S' would differ more than 5 or at most 10% from these ratios. Then I multiplied them by .80, to allow for range at the end of the battery's useful life (or capacity after a 30 minute QC), and finally multiplied by another .8 to allow for temp, accessory use, winds etc.

After that, I went looking for likely spots with appropriate spacing near major road junctions, and with some kind of food service nearby. The winners are: Santa Nella Village (Starbucks and McDonald's), which also covers people coming over from the South Bay via Gilroy and 152, which is 111 miles from SF via 580/I-5; and Wheeler Ridge (exit 219B - Laval Rd.), just south of the junction of I-5 and 99 at the base of the Grapevine, 83 miles from LA and 116 from Harris Ranch (the difference between non-stop SF-LA and sectional mileage being due to distances on/off the exits), and with a Starbucks, McDonald's, In-N-Out Burger, Panda Express, Chipotle and an Iron Skillet all located close together.

The '320' can make it non-stop to Harris Ranch from SF (or vice versa) under virtually any conditions at any of the above speeds, but the '230' would want to top up at Santa Nella for 5 or 10 minutes at higher speeds or under worse conditions. Assuming both would charge to at least 80% at Harris Ranch they could make it to Wheeler Ridge, but the '230' would need a longish charge before heading over the Grapevine.

The '320' could probably only make it non-stop from Harris Ranch to LA under ideal conditions and at no more than 65 mph, and might have to slow down below that. It seems unlikely to me that anyone who's paid ~$80k for a car would be willing to poke along I-5 at 65 or less, constantly being passed with 15-20 mph overtakes by people driving beat-up pickups, 10-year old Toyota Corollas, or 15 passenger vans filled with migrant farm workers, so I expect they'd stop for a 5-10 minute charge before heading up the Grapevine.

I think having QCs at something like a Starbucks would be just about ideal for a 30 minute stop. Use the can, get a caffeine fix/muffin if so inclined, check your email/reservations etc. while you wait, and then on. For people who want a longer stop there should be some other food options co-located.

I can't imagine anyone who can afford something like a Tesla 'S' valuing their time so little that they'd be willing to make more than one full 30 minute stop per trip on that route.

 

[N952JL]

I'm gradually getting a sinking feeling that L2 is a waste of time other than at home and work and that L3 is going to turn out to have almost no negative effect on the battery... can't help but feel that the focus here needs to be on getting L3 in place first, then filling in with L2 on an as need basis!

+10

 

[edatoakrun]

I'm gradually getting a sinking feeling that L2 is a waste of time other than at home and work and that L3 is going to turn out to have almost no negative effect on the battery... can't help but feel that the focus here needs to be on getting L3 in place first, then filling in with L2 on an as need basis!

+10

Actually, I think L2 will eventually be used mostly where BEVs are parked for long hours during off-peak grid demand hours, when electricity is much cheaper. For most of us, this will be where we park at night, at home, parking lots, hotels, etc.

For those with very long commutes, it may well be cheaper to buy a longer-range BEV with a larger battery capacity, than to re-charge at work, if that is with pricey power, during peak demand periods.

 

[JPWhite]

Actually, I think L2 will eventually be used mostly where BEVs are parked for long hours during off-peak grid demand hours, when electricity is much cheaper. For most of us, this will be where we park at night, at home, parking lots, hotels, etc.

I agree that is the best use case for L2 chargers, but currently they are being deployed to places like mCDonalds where it's hard to spend more than 1/2 hour at a time. Deployment isn't matching the most likely use case.

 

[fooljoe]

While that's a popular long-distance travel route, it's will only be done in a LEAF if you are extremely patient.

Nice analysis. Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to make that trip in a Leaf unless it's Phil with his Capstone trailer. (How bout it Phil? Take that thing out on tour!)

I saw the Tesla charger at Harris Ranch when I stopped there last August. I can't imagine it's getting much usage out there. Anyone heard of any Tesla drivers making the LA-SF run? If it were up to me, I'd put QCs on the 99, not the 5. Plenty more places to stop and spend time while you wait for a charge.

EDIT: After looking at the news about Tesla charger (dated November), I guess the charging station I saw was probably a more run-of-the-mill L2 - or whatever L2 corresponds to in Teslaland.

 

[fooljoe]

Actually, I think L2 will eventually be used mostly where BEVs are parked for long hours during off-peak grid demand hours, when electricity is much cheaper. For most of us, this will be where we park at night, at home, parking lots, hotels, etc.

Exactly - we need L2 at destinations and QC to get us there. L1's enough at work and airports. I'd love it if I could take a trip to San Diego in my Leaf with a nuke-powered QC at San Onofre and a reserved spot with L2 at my hotel.

 

[KevinSharpe]

EDIT: After looking at the news about Tesla charger (dated November), I guess the charging station I saw was probably a more run-of-the-mill L2 - or whatever L2 corresponds to in Teslaland.

The Tesla HPC is a 230V 70A L2 Charging Station. It uses the same protocol as J1772 and you could charge your Leaf if you had a suitable Tesla-to-J1772 adapter.

 

[edatoakrun]

EDIT: After looking at the news about Tesla charger (dated November), I guess the charging station I saw was probably a more run-of-the-mill L2 - or whatever L2 corresponds to in Teslaland.

The Tesla HPC is a 230V 70A L2 Charging Station. It uses the same protocol as J1772 and you could charge your Leaf if you had a suitable Tesla-to-J1772 adapter.

Where can I get one?

What will it cost me?

The only "public" EVSE on I-5 Between Sacramento and the Oregon border are "Tesla" chargers in Orland and Yreka. I live about halfway between these locations, and, of course, I cannot use them.

Tesla's emerging strategy for public charging it's cars in the future, unfortunately, seems to follow this pilot program of "what is ours is ours and what is yours we can share".

Tesla owners will, for a relatively small incremental cost (as compared to the six-figure cost of the Tesla) be equipped to use J1772 and DC chargers, but the higher relative cost of adapters to "Tesla" AC (and DC?) chargers seems intended keep the HOI POLLOI away.

 

[N952JL]

While that's a popular long-distance travel route, it's will only be done in a LEAF if you are extremely patient.

Here is the route for those not familiar: http://g.co/maps/n8nn4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is nearly 400 miles, typically done at high speeds of 70-80 (speed limit is 70 mph), often done in very hot temperatures nearing 100*F, and covers significant mountain climbs - Grapevine includes nearly 4,000 ft of climbing - not to mention cross winds which can be significant at times.

Let's say you are patient and limit speeds to what the trucks normally do - 60-65 mph (even though the posted truck limit is 55 mph very few do that).

Quick charge to 80% will get you 60 miles at most at those speeds. You'll likely want to top off every 50 miles because if you misjudge something, you're calling a tow truck. Distances between rest stops are typically ~30 miles, gas stations are typically also spaced similarly apart, sometimes closer. You will want to have QC stations at as many spots as possible - so probably 20-30 mi intervals if not more. Add in L2 stations for situations where you get stranded between QC stations just in case.
....
Normally, this drive takes 6-6.5 hours driven at 75 mph with 1-2 fuel/food stops and 1-2 additional bathroom stops.

How many people would be willing to add 5-6 hours to their trip along this route? There certainly isn't much along the way for any other reason to take that route.

Realistically, you're going to need a 130+mi freeway speed EV (2x range of the LEAF or more) if you're going to want to make this trek so you can cut the number of charge stops to 4 or less. The larger pack should also allow faster QC rates on average (more time spent charging at 50 kW instead of tapering off to avoid battery damage - 30 minutes could get you 25 kWh instead of 15 kWh).[/quote]
Yep. I think nobody except the most hardcore Leafers would even want to do the trip even w/QC infrastructure in place. It just adds too much time to an already long trip. If one does only 70 mph on I-5 during that trip, prepare to be passed by almost everyone except big rigs.

Funny that at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=109125#p109125" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, we had a discussion about where the QC stations should be located.[/quote]
FWIW, after Tesla announced/hinted that they were going to build their own network of proprietary QCs along I-5 between SF and LA, with the first apparently at Harris Ranch (185 miles from downtown SF, 196 from downtown LA), I spent a little time figuring out where they would want or need the others. At a minimum they need three to make the trip possible in all conditions for the '230' mile version of the 'S' as well as the '320' mile version - the '160' mile version apparently won't be equipped with QC.

First, lacking better info I multiplied the above ranges (stated to be at 55 mph) to likely ranges using the same ratios as the Leaf's range drop on Tony's chart between 55 and higher speeds: for 65 mph I used .84, for 70 mph I used .76, and for 75 mph I used .70. I think it unlikely the 'S' would differ more than 5 or at most 10% from these ratios. Then I multiplied them by .80, to allow for range at the end of the battery's useful life (or capacity after a 30 minute QC), and finally multiplied by another .8 to allow for temp, accessory use, winds etc.

After that, I went looking for likely spots with appropriate spacing near major road junctions, and with some kind of food service nearby. The winners are: Santa Nella Village (Starbucks and McDonald's), which also covers people coming over from the South Bay via Gilroy and 152, which is 111 miles from SF via 580/I-5; and Wheeler Ridge (exit 219B - Laval Rd.), just south of the junction of I-5 and 99 at the base of the Grapevine, 83 miles from LA and 116 from Harris Ranch (the difference between non-stop SF-LA and sectional mileage being due to distances on/off the exits), and with a Starbucks, McDonald's, In-N-Out Burger, Panda Express, Chipotle and an Iron Skillet all located close together.

The '320' can make it non-stop to Harris Ranch from SF (or vice versa) under virtually any conditions at any of the above speeds, but the '230' would want to top up at Santa Nella for 5 or 10 minutes at higher speeds or under worse conditions. Assuming both would charge to at least 80% at Harris Ranch they could make it to Wheeler Ridge, but the '230' would need a longish charge before heading over the Grapevine.

The '320' could probably only make it non-stop from Harris Ranch to LA under ideal conditions and at no more than 65 mph, and might have to slow down below that. It seems unlikely to me that anyone who's paid ~$80k for a car would be willing to poke along I-5 at 65 or less, constantly being passed with 15-20 mph overtakes by people driving beat-up pickups, 10-year old Toyota Corollas, or 15 passenger vans filled with migrant farm workers, so I expect they'd stop for a 5-10 minute charge before heading up the Grapevine.

I think having QCs at something like a Starbucks would be just about ideal for a 30 minute stop. Use the can, get a caffeine fix/muffin if so inclined, check your email/reservations etc. while you wait, and then on. For people who want a longer stop there should be some other food options co-located.

I can't imagine anyone who can afford something like a Tesla 'S' valuing their time so little that they'd be willing to make more than one full 30 minute stop per trip on that route.[/quote]

Using your numbers the fully charged Leaf has an interstate range of 48.64 miles. I happen to agree with you. In order for the electric vehicle to become the vehicle of choice for the majority of Americans we need an interstate range of 210 which using your numbers means a range of 431 miles. That isn't going to happen anytime soon. Accually I feel 276 to 300 would be OK. Then QCs every 100 miles or so along major roads.

 

[KevinSharpe]

Where can I get one?

What will it cost me?

This guy will build you one although I don't know how much it will cost you;

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-Roadster/page22?p=94174&viewfull=1#post94174

Some of the public HPC's have also been converted to J1772 by replacing the cable... unfortunately, most of these were also downgraded from 70A to 30A charging at the same time

 

[KevinSharpe]

Tesla owners will, for a relatively small incremental cost (as compared to the six-figure cost of the Tesla) be equipped to use J1772 and DC chargers, but the higher relative cost of adapters to "Tesla" AC (and DC?) chargers seems intended keep the HOI POLLOI away.

I think Tesla's decisions have much more to do with the lack of a US DC Standard from the SAE, and a genuine desire to charge at 90kW (yes, I know CHAdeMO can support this charge rate but that's not what's being deployed). I personally wish they had supported CHAdeMO because we are going to see a lot of those chargers in Europe this year.

IMO the way forward is to encourage business to deploy extremely simple, reliable, and low cost L2 Charging Stations in very large numbers at hotels, restaurants, parking lots, etc. Government should then focus completely on quick charge infrastructure. In the UK we are having great success with the former and I'm hopeful we will eventually achieve the later...

 

[JPWhite]

IMO the way forward is to encourage business to deploy extremely simple, reliable, and low cost L2 Charging Stations in very large numbers at hotels, restaurants, parking lots, etc. Government should then focus completely on quick charge infrastructure. In the UK we are having great success with the former and I'm hopeful we will eventually achieve the later...

That sounds like a sound strategy.

One frustrating piece of news for me is that the new California Air Board standards require gas stations to install a number of Hydrogen pumps. They could install 60 or so L3 chargers for the same money as one hydro gas station. Unfortunately they did not specify L3 requirements as far as I'm aware.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

That sounds like a sound strategy.

One frustrating piece of news for me is that the new California Air Board standards require gas stations to install a number of Hydrogen pumps. They could install 60 or so L3 chargers for the same money as one hydro gas station. Unfortunately they did not specify L3 requirements as far as I'm aware.

what?? is this for real? what power does CARB have to mandate this? (they had a lot when i lived there)

how many H2's will be using this service?

 

[edatoakrun]

...IMO the way forward is to encourage business to deploy extremely simple, reliable, and low cost L2 Charging Stations in very large numbers at hotels, restaurants, parking lots, etc. Government should then focus completely on quick charge infrastructure. In the UK we are having great success with the former and I'm hopeful we will eventually achieve the later...

IMO, the way forward is to establish a worldwide DC charging standard, and let most public AC charging fade away.

Why should it require an expensive, complicated, large, and heavy, "fast" AC charger in each BEV, when you can place the charger at the charge-point, and recharge dozens of BEVs each day, off of a single, faster, DC charger?

 

[EdmondLeaf]

IMO the way forward is to encourage business to deploy extremely simple, reliable, and low cost L2 Charging Stations in very large numbers at hotels, restaurants, parking lots, etc. Government should then focus completely on quick charge infrastructure. In the UK we are having great success with the former and I'm hopeful we will eventually achieve the later...

I agree with you L2 in the places that owner believe you will spend relatively long period of time, and to encourage people to use their business

QC infrastructure is a must to encourage wider adoption because:
people are inpatient,
to have ev as only car,
need to feel secure traveling to new destination,
emergency trip,
a need for longer trip that fast recharge is critical,
give ev wider exposure and show that you can

 

[KevinSharpe]

IMO, the way forward is to establish a worldwide DC charging standard, and let most public AC charging fade away.

Sorry, but I don't think that will ever happen... we already have CHAdeMO, SAE, Tesla, 62196, and UCS 'standards'.

Why should it require an expensive, complicated, large, and heavy, "fast" AC charger in each BEV, when you can place the charger at the charge-point, and recharge dozens of BEVs each day, off of a single, faster, DC charger?

A 43kW AC 62196 Charging Station should cost less than $500 and given it's small size could be deployed everywhere.

Personally, I also dislike the fact that DC Chargers are deployed in low numbers and often represent single points of failure.

I think we should just wait and see... will the Tesla DC charger model beat the Renault AC model... who knows

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

In 10 years we will laugh over the fact that we spent do much energy on discussing charging options

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=138" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[garygid]

In emergency low-fuel situations:

You are low on E-Fuel ...
but there is a farmhouse ahead, with a light on (they have e-fuel).

A portable (or built-in) charging-anywhere solution is still desirable.

--------
Further, a "CRAM" (Chademo Rescue Adapter Module) might be useful:
One (probably higher-charged) Chademo-vehicle can supply e-fuel
to aother (usually lower-charged) Chademo vehicle.

As we come to understand the QC-CAN communications enough,
and make a low cost "CSOP" (Chademo Shove-On Plug),
such a useful device becomes possible.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The option to buy a car AND battery will never go away. It just won't be the majority

 

[edatoakrun]

Why should it require an expensive, complicated, large, and heavy, "fast" AC charger in each BEV, when you can place the charger at the charge-point, and recharge dozens of BEVs each day, off of a single, faster, DC charger?

"KevinSharpe" A 43kW AC 62196 Charging Station should cost less than $500 and given it's small size could be deployed everywhere...

First, it would cost a huge amount to supply the infrastructure to deliver 43 kW to these AC stations, if located "everywhere".

And these "charging stations" require the "charger", by which I mean the inverter and associated control and cooling systems, to be installed in every BEV.

Why put all this in every BEV, when you can install it at the charge-point, to supply multiple vehicles?

And so recharge BEVs (other than where they are parked during off-peak grid hours) at dedicated DC public charge stations?