How people use Leaf in Europe - QC as needed

[DaveinOlyWA]

I went to only public L2 in OK, just to try it. After 20 min I was bored (how long you can browse things that you do not need?) and just few more miles that didn't matter that much. I want to go whatever I want - so does regular car buyer, I will have 80% in 20 min with QC.

ya i have done that as well and you are right. if you have no business being there, it makes it tough but charging is just a beginning. it should not be a question of going out of your way to charge. you should be able to charge for 20 minutes at EVERY destination, not just a few.

right now, we are in a situation that just one ICE can screw an EVer. but if every store had it. then you can just say "ok, Albertson's is ICE'd by an asshole and i dont feel like waiting for someone to tow him so i will just plug in at Target instead"

that is the options we need to have and we can. add up how many QC's can be installed with just 10% of the annual oil subsidy money

 

[Ingineer]

IMO, there are multiple causes for the bungled DC charger roll-out in the USA.

All are related to what I think is the unaccepted reality today, that will be obvious, in retrospect.

A network of DC stations for fast charging BEVs will be the essential infrastructure that will allow America to replace the ICEV as the majority of the nations private vehicle fleet, and far sooner than is commonly expected.

I didn't believe this 5 years ago (I thought battery swap was the most likely BEV solution) and some on this forum a year ago were still saying DC, was not required, either because frequent DC use would “damage” the battery, or that one minute of DC charging for two to four miles of driving, was not fast enough.

The BEV/DC reality, that it’s here NOW, economically viable, and will soon be DEMANDED by all BEV drivers, has clearly not sunk in at most American EV manufactures, who are planning to try to sell less capable L2/AC only EVs.

DC superiority also has not seemed to have sunk in at the bureaucratic level in many States. If you look at where DC is being installed in the USA, it seems to either where a competent State bureaucracy “gets it”, such as Washington and Oregon, or where electricity retailers are allowed to pursue BEV customers in a largely free market, such as in Texas.

In California, we seem to be burdened by a PUC, CARB and regulated utilities, that are, by incompetence, blocking BEV adoption, by blocking DC charge infrastructure development, while expending huge amounts of public funding on less useful L2 public charging for EVs, and on what are far less likely, and clearly not presently viable (hydrogen, bio-fuel) energy alternatives.

Well put! I don't believe in these "secret forces" that are out to stifle the EV movement. I think it's just incompetence and the basic human trait of resisting change for no good reason. There is also a lot of really bad "common knowledge" out there that is totally off-base.

I remember when my mom was looking to get a new car back about 5 years ago, and trusting me completely, along with my engineering background, she asked me what I recommended. I didn't hesitate: Toyota Prius. She responded with her Kentucky accent; "That's one of those old electric things, I don't want to mess with those." She totally didn't understand what the Prius was, and had just heard little "common knowledge" tidbits that they had super-expensive batteries that had to be replaced all the time, they were too small, expensive, slow, and extremely hard to operate with all those "computer screens".

With a lot of work on my part, I finally convinced her to take a test drive. Not too long after which she drove home in a new 2008 Prius, and she loved that car like no other car before it!

We have an uphill battle, as Toyota has well over a million on the road now, and yet people still believe all these incorrect things about the Prius. It's even embedded in popular culture now. People are made fun of in movies for owning/driving a Prius!

One of the incorrect assumptions my mom had of the Prius was that it needed to be plugged in. I told her, "You wish it had that feature, but no, it's no different from a normal car. You put gas in, it goes. You just put a LOT less in!". That was the inspiration that made me create my own plug-in-Prius.

I would guess we have about 10k EV's on the road here in the US, and probably about half of them are close to where I live in Berkeley, California. I know that in the US, there are more Prius owners per capita in Berkeley than anywhere else. Still even with this EV's are still not understood correctly by most people!

When you read some of the comments that were posted in my recent article on Yahoo, it becomes apparent how much of a battle we have ahead of us. There is so much "hate" and misinformation it really is disheartening. I almost wish I could take back that article, as it might have actually harmed our nascent movement more than it helped!

QC infrastructure expansion would greatly help our cause, there's no doubt. But the best chance we have is to show as many people as possible "the light". (How you can have your cake and EV it too, and it's very tasty!) If people really have the correct understanding, we will make it work. We will have our QC infrastructure fast if there are more EVangelists running around spreading the truth. It's a massively uphill battle though!

-Phil

 

[hill]

Yes, it's a serious uphill battle. It's a sign of how twisted a lot of folks think . . . that something like the SUV below, is more do-able than an EV.

I fear the U.S. (as a whole) will prefer to burn the last tree down - building statues like on Easter Island - before it will seriously entertain a massive conversion to EV's.

.

 

[JimLovewell]

A network of DC stations for fast charging BEVs will be the essential infrastructure that will allow America to replace the ICEV as the majority of the nations private vehicle fleet, and far sooner than is commonly expected.

QC infrastructure expansion would greatly help our cause, there's no doubt. But the best chance we have is to show as many people as possible "the light". (How you can have your cake and EV it too, and it's very tasty!) If people really have the correct understanding, we will make it work. We will have our QC infrastructure fast if there are more EVangelists running around spreading the truth. It's a massively uphill battle though!

I agree that QC stations are essential to grow the BEV and I also did not realize this 5 years ago. I also have been very frustrated by the lack of QC stations and believe they are essential. I believe for QCs to happen there has to be a commercially viable enterprise solution. If we have this for ICEVs, the common gas station, then we need it for BEVs. I read in the forum somewhere that PG&E and Southern California Edison will charge up to $4000.00 per month for high load demands just for having a 60 KW QCs connected but nothing for 20 KW QCs (I don’t know if this is true or not can somebody sight a reference). If this is true then seems is a 240 VAC single phase 20 KW QC with a Point of Sale, POS, it should look like a gas pump that takes VISA, MC, AE, etc. be a suitable low enough cost appliance that businesses would install for profit. I for one would all too happy to stop for coffee and pick up 30 miles in 30 minutes at a 20 KW commercial QC versus using a J2 EVSE (getting only 5 miles) or plug in my Nissan portable charger (getting less than 2 miles). I would also be very happy paying a fee for the number KWH used (like $0.30 to $0.40 per KHW) versus what some of the Charge Point’s stations do, $2.00 per session, it does not matter how long you are connected.

I have written Blink, AV, Coulomb, ClipperCreek and others that a 20 KW 240 VAC single phase QC should be very salient but I only get replies that they appreciate my enthusiasm. I have yet to see any QCs for sale that are in the range 240 VAC single phase (except Nissan's 6K QC "LEAF to Home" that is not on the market yet, does not have a POS and is too low power).

I am wondering of others of you have the same beliefs? I am hoping we can get an advocate (like AV Project or Nisson) that could use their to assist is setting up viable commercial QC stations for us BEV users. Comments / Suggestions?

 

[Ingineer]

If this is true then seems is a 240 VAC single phase 20 KW QC with a Point of Sale, POS, it should look like a gas pump that takes VISA, MC, AE, etc. be a suitable low enough cost appliance that businesses would install for profit. I for one would all too happy to stop for coffee and pick up 30 miles in 30 minutes at a 20 KW commercial QC versus using a J2 EVSE (getting only 5 miles) or plug in my Nissan portable charger (getting less than 2 miles). I would also be very happy paying a fee for the number KWH used (like $0.30 to $0.40 per KHW) versus what some of the Charge Point’s stations do, $2.00 per session, it does not matter how long you are connected.

I have written Blink, AV, Coulomb, ClipperCreek and others that a 20 KW 240 VAC single phase QC should be very salient but I only get replies that they appreciate my enthusiasm. I have yet to see any QCs for sale that are in the range 240 VAC single phase (except Nissan's 6K QC "LEAF to Home" that is not on the market yet, does not have a POS and is too low power).

I am wondering of others of you have the same beliefs? I am hoping we can get an advocate (like AV Project or Nisson) that could use their to assist is setting up viable commercial QC stations for us BEV users. Comments / Suggestions?

I've got a design for an add-on "limiter board" that you can add to any CHAdeMO QC, which will let you set an upper limit on the charge power.

As soon as Nissan actually delivers on their promised $10k (now supposedly only a little over $7k) QC, I'll put this together. Adding in the POS is pretty easy also.

-Phil

 

[walterbays]

I have written Blink, AV, Coulomb, ClipperCreek and others that a 20 KW 240 VAC single phase QC should be very salient but I only get replies that they appreciate my enthusiasm. I have yet to see any QCs for sale that are in the range 240 VAC single phase (except Nissan's 6K QC "LEAF to Home" that is not on the market yet, does not have a POS and is too low power).

The 20 kW level is an artifice of short sighted regulators, and even within California the details of the demand charges vary from utility to utility. Today we must now work within the constraints as given rather than count on CPUC making the problem go away, which means among other things looking to 20 kW chargers. But neither should we think of 20 kW as an immutable law of nature. Someone could invest a lot of money into a scheme to work around that artificial barrier, only to see the CPUC come to their senses tomorrow and remove the demand charges for "eFuel." If they did not plan for a migration to 49 kW chargers they would be at a great disadvantage compared to late arriving competitors.

 

[garygid]

How many Legislator's Votes can be "swayed" with 40 Billion a year?

I assume $1,000,000 a year would "influence" many PiP (People in Power) to vote "for" a specified cause, perhaps like "for" oil and against "clean" on most issues. Example: Will the PiP Vote for CNG stations or for QC stations.

With the possibility of well over 40,000 PiP strongly "influenced" to continue windfall profits to the oil-related industries ... we get today's situation, believe it or not.

The incorrect "propaganda" is only a tool to help support the greed, IMO.

 

[leafkabob]

When you read some of the comments that were posted in my recent article on Yahoo, it becomes apparent how much of a battle we have ahead of us. There is so much "hate" and misinformation it really is disheartening. I almost wish I could take back that article, as it might have actually harmed our nascent movement more than it helped!

Phil, I hope you don't really think that your article may have set back the movement. I thought your article was very good. The comments were indeed very discouraging, but the comments on just about any article that touches on an important topic these days are about the same. I was amazed at the breadth and shear number of the anti-ev comments. So much so, that I truly wondered if there wasn't an organized "write-in" campaign going on.

I for one was very glad to see your article. I choose to believe that folks who read the article will put more faith into it than into the comments at the bottom.

 

[Ingineer]

The 20 kW level is an artifice of short sighted regulators, and even within California the details of the demand charges vary from utility to utility. Today we must now work within the constraints as given rather than count on CPUC making the problem go away, which means among other things looking to 20 kW chargers. But neither should we think of 20 kW as an immutable law of nature. Someone could invest a lot of money into a scheme to work around that artificial barrier, only to see the CPUC come to their senses tomorrow and remove the demand charges for "eFuel." If they did not plan for a migration to 49 kW chargers they would be at a great disadvantage compared to late arriving competitors.

This is why I think a great solution is to just limit existing QCs in peak demand areas to just under the limit. At such time in the future the PUC comes to their senses, we just remove the limiter.

Another application for the limiter, is for installations where you simply don't have enough capacity to run full power. (Single-Phase 240v)

The limiter can even by dynamic and smart, so it can watch to total power consumed by that location, and quickly adjust the QC while charging so it keeps the total demand under a specified limit for that customer's meter.

-Phil

 

[CWO4Mann]

Some countries "get it" that EV should replace
much of their dependence on oil.

Here in the USA, there are major, strong, wealthy forces behind
the "workings" of this country that would prefer to see EVs fail,
or at least drastically slowed.

For example, trace back where the 18 M$ for H2 comes from,
and the influences behind the decision.

[soapbox]
Or, take L2 or CNG or the "L3 standard", or "demand charges", or ...
why we subsidize oil so much, or wage wars, or let 911 happen.
[/soapbox]

I think that you are right on target, Gary. There are wheels within wheels and as I put my tinfoil cap firmly on my head, I would opine that there are a LOT of moneyed interests who will rue the day with EV's and CNG vehicles become common. I still remember my dad telling me about how the steam powered car was killed off in the 1920's ... urban legend or not, whatever, YMMV. On the other hand, a lot of bosses out there are favorable to the idea of EV and/or CNG. Any time you save money big time like you do with an EV or CNG vehicle, the CEO and CFO sits up and takes notice. Initial up-front costs in the existing obamaconomy are what causes the hold-up for us. (We are a 6+ Billion dollar company). FWIW, I did a research project for my CEO on using CNG vehicles for a local area in-house courier operation (6 vehicles, about 750 cumulative miles per day). CNG at that time (a few years back) was far and beyond the easiest and cheapest route for the company. The glitch? Honda wouldn't sell their CNG vehicles in Tennessee and conversion of existing vehicles would not allow the company to see a clear financial advantage. We even scoped out a nice CNG refilling station in a warehouse area right off the interstate .. on property that the company owned. For less than $250,000 we could have put in a station, connected it to existing gas mains, and even set up a 24/7 availability for random cars and trucks with credit cards (and made money on the deal). We did the same calculations last year with the LEAF and an in-house set of L2 stations and were making money hand over fist by going EV as compared to $3.50 per gallon. However, by that time the company had bought new vehicles (PT Cruisers) and now has to hang on to them for 5 years to keep the tax man happy. However, come 2015, all 6 vehicles will be changed over to LEAFs.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I estimate that there is about 7K EV in California and maybe 100 FC, why not support something that is here today?

How much will the vehicle cost? How much will the fuel cost? How far can a vehicle go before refueling?
Fuel cell vehicles won’t be for sale for several years.

http://cafcp.org/faq

Yes, a huge amount of money, much of it from taxpayers, is being wasted on AC L2 public charging infrastructure in the USA. DC public charging will essentially make most public L2 sites obsolete...if we ever get it.

California is the poster child for this dysfunctional EV infrastructure effort. Over a year after I posted the comment below, there is still no public DC in California, and still no statewide plans to place DC chargers, where most needed.

No kidding. And the CEC just decided to put another $18M towards H2 infrastructure.
California Energy Commission soliciting proposals for $18.7M in awards to develop hydrogen fueling infrastructure

That same money would pay for 200-400 DC QC stations in California - more than enough to cover all the major metropolitan areas and major highways across the state.

 

[adric22]

I see several problems with QC. The first one being that not all vehicles support it. As best of my knowledge only "some" Leafs support it, and "some" Mitsubishi I's support it. There's no support from Ford on any of their products, or the Volt, or Tesla, etc. So when an entity is considering installing a charging station, especially when they look at the costs, it is really hard to justify spending such a huge amount of money to make such a small crowd happy.

The second issue relates somewhat to the first, and that is simply the cost to install such a thing. Who wants to pay for it? It has to be profitable in order to justify it. It is much easier to convince a company to spend $1,000 to install a L2 charger that "might" get used. It makes them appear more green. But is is much more difficult to convince somebody to spend $20,000 or more to install a QC.

Personally, I'd just be thrilled as can be if there were L2 chargers everywhere I went. As it is, there are virtually none in the Fort Worth area. Dallas is getting a decent number of them, but I never have any reason to drive over there.

Maybe I'm just thinking of myself because my Leaf doesn't even have a QC port. So it wouldn't do me any good no matter how many QC stations were around.

 

[Nubo]

If we're talking about mainstream use of EVs for long-distance travel, then QC are going to need deployment beyond anything I've seen proposed.

A highway with a L3 every 50 miles has very little EV carrying capacity. A 50kW charger can deliver, maybe 200 miles of (hwy) range per hour, which will support 2 EV drivers per hour, assuming they coordinate with military precision or don't mind queuing for their charges.

A gasoline pump can deliver, let's say, 1800 miles of range per hour. A typical hwy exit will often have more than one station and each station may have 4, 8, 20 pumps. Averaged over the length of highway, far more pumps per mile than 1/50.

You will either need fantastically more stations, or EVs with much longer range so that the bulk of charging can happen outside of the travel time. I'd bet on the latter happening before the former.

 

[adric22]

You will either need fantastically more stations, or EVs with much longer range so that the bulk of charging can happen outside of the travel time. I'd bet on the latter happening before the former.

Agreed - The Leaf is not suitable for a long-distance vehicle, even with abundant QC infrastructure. Just think, for every 50 miles you'd have to sit for 30 minutes and recharge. I could see doing that on a 100-mile trip where you have to stop one time. But I can't see going cross country like that.

 

[Ingineer]

I also agree, I'd be ok with a 200 mile trip with QC's along the way, but not much farther. Your best bet is to rent a car, or better yet, swap with a friend or neighbor, this seems to always be a win-win.

Of course I can take unlimited trips in my Leaf! Maybe sometime soon, we will have an easy and simple way to rent a range extender for those long trips. I'm working on it!

-Phil

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Stating that chademo/much faster charging is not going to help is equal to assuming that this is most what we can get from EV, ever. This is completely different what is going on in Europe and Japan. Of course, if I only have L2, I can't think to go anywhere, just local car, and that is all. Many people wants to have one car solution and in that case ev is not an option. If we want ev to be local transportation only, than we can't expect wide adoption. For me chademo/much faster charging is a bridge solution, until next generation with higher energy density, range is on the market, but future technology will also require much faster charging. Faster system is also needed for wide adoption assuming local travel only. If instead of 2 right now, in my workplace there is 200 ev, and 100 wants to recharge in my opinion chademo will be more capable then L2.

http://www.chademo.com/04_maps.html

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Don't forget that everyone will have L2 at home, meeting the majority of need. QC will allow for the occasional long distance trip and therefore not be under anything like the demand of a gas station. Once battery capacity doubles, it will be even better.

If we're talking about mainstream use of EVs for long-distance travel, then QC are going to need deployment beyond anything I've seen proposed.

A highway with a L3 every 50 miles has very little EV carrying capacity. A 50kW charger can deliver, maybe 200 miles of (hwy) range per hour, which will support 2 EV drivers per hour, assuming they coordinate with military precision or don't mind queuing for their charges.

A gasoline pump can deliver, let's say, 1800 miles of range per hour. A typical hwy exit will often have more than one station and each station may have 4, 8, 20 pumps. Averaged over the length of highway, far more pumps per mile than 1/50.

You will either need fantastically more stations, or EVs with much longer range so that the bulk of charging can happen outside of the travel time. I'd bet on the latter happening before the former.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I also agree, I'd be ok with a 200 mile trip with QC's along the way, but not much farther.

I am not sure if my situation is that much different than other people here, but if instead of only public L2 there is QC there, I will be able to go anywhere within city without thinking. It is a bit different 80% within 5h or 20 min, and that will also justify if I have to use few miles to go to QC. Exactly, 200 miles a day that what I need, to be very comfortable, and Leaf is very capable to deliver that within a day, Leaf across the big water are proof of that. I my opinion it will be completely different for wider adoption, if asked, how far can go, to answer, 70 miles and than 50 after 20 min recharge at local QC station. I do need and can't drive from coast to coast, but I will be very happy if I will be able to drive to my Nissan dealer (201 miles).

 

[wsbca]

A highway with a L3 every 50 miles has very little EV carrying capacity. A 50kW charger can deliver, maybe 200 miles of (hwy) range per hour, which will support 2 EV drivers per hour, assuming they coordinate with military precision or don't mind queuing for their charges.

This is the elephant in the room. QC is only useful if there's one available quickly enough when you need it... Given the enthusiastic usage of the (few) public L2's by the (extremely few) Leafs that are around now (eg. Balboa Park in San Diego), and if we assume the population of EVs will grow to something significant [if we can't assume that, then the whole conversation is moot], QC sites with small numbers (from 1 to N, I don't know what N is) will be relatively useless. Unless they are priced in such a way to make them only appealing for true emergency use...which won't be any fun at all. In the far distant future (when there isn't any more gas), there will need to be charging capability everywhere. A parking place where you can't charge will by necessity be the exception, not the rule.

I filled out an EV Project survey from UC Davis earlier today - one of the sections allows you to use a map to put in 5 suggestions for charging sites (L2 or QC). I picked spots that would be useful to me in theory, to bring more of the county within reach...but if they were to just put one QC in each of those sites, unless they also stop selling EVs, it actually wouldn't help me at all - I'm not going to leave home expecting it to be available only to end up in a 2.5 hour line (of just 5 cars!!) to get a chance to use it, that's ridiculous.

The maps from Japan and Europe are encouraging, but for now in the US, we'd get more total utility (by which I mean useful trips beyond single charge range) out of a situation where you could count on level ONE charging at hotels...

 

[EdmondLeaf]

[The maps from Japan and Europe are encouraging, but for now in the US, we'd get more total utility (by which I mean useful trips beyond single charge range) out of a situation where you could count on level ONE charging at hotels...

I believe than my situation is very different in sparsely populated area with lot of miles to travel. However, someone still have to convince me that wide adoption of EV will be possible without proper infrastructure. We don't/didn't use every gas station on the way to our destination, but they are there just in case we need them. Somehow we should believe that wide ev adoption without proper infrastructure is possible, because is too expensive or not fast enough.