How people use Leaf in Europe - QC as needed

[DaveinOlyWA]

Yep saw that. I guess that its settled then. Now we get Better Place in here and that should be a nice start to the EV charging infrastructure

 

[Ingineer]

I love Better Place's concept, and the Leaf is well-suited for a quick pack swap system, but I just don't see where the $ is going to come from.

You're going to need a bunch of extra Leaf packs, and a QC for each pack if you want to be able to handle peak turnover rates, then the largish facility and all the robotics. Seems like multi-megabucks of investment needed per station.

Then, what's to say the Leaf pack you get wasn't abused and is in poor condition? I suppose you just go get it swapped again?

-Phil

 

[LEAFfan]

Ireland - only car so is used locally as well for longer trips - around 300 miles within a day - using 5 different QC.

I'd love to see the one year battery check report on this Leaf to see if the warnings from Nissan about multiple QC's a day warrant any concern.

Lake, I've posted many times about QCing these battery packs. It's absolutely ludicrous of Nissan to have a QC port, then say to use it only once a day! Think about it, what sense does that make? Anyway, they were extensively (8 years/100K miles worth) tested here (in extreme heat) years ago before the LEAF was even announced. They found that QCing up to 6 times a day did no more degradation to the battery pack than L2 charging. The key is to only charge when the battery temp is outside the red area.
And for most of the other posters on here, there is no L3 yet as that is SAE's current project. CHAdeMO, DCQC, or just QC is the proper term.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I love Better Place's concept, and the Leaf is well-suited for a quick pack swap system, but I just don't see where the $ is going to come from.

You're going to need a bunch of extra Leaf packs, and a QC for each pack if you want to be able to handle peak turnover rates, then the largish facility and all the robotics. Seems like multi-megabucks of investment needed per station.

Then, what's to say the Leaf pack you get wasn't abused and is in poor condition? I suppose you just go get it swapped again?

-Phil

it is easy to be daunted by the start up costs because they are huge but so was the Verizon Network but look at where they are now. but sure, we are talking probably 1-2 million for the facility then enough packs on hand to handle the expected demand which could be as little as a few hundred thou to a few million in areas of heavy demand but pack costs can come later. one thing each car will have fitted will be a program that monitors where each swap station is and the ability to reserve a pack from the car.


one thing for sure; EVs are the right way to go

what is still up for debate is how best to insure that EVs can fill the greatest need. extended range is one way and QC takes a Leaf's range from 65-90 to 130 to 150. so now instead of covering 85% of one's daily transportation needs, its now covering 97% of the need.

but we still have a large segment that wants to drive electric but cannot pony up $35,000. so for that segment which is large, we sell gliders and rent batteries at X a month. this is the market that swap stations cover and it will become much larger than QC eventually. look at businesses like package deliveries, taxi's etc?

the swap option reduces the initial financial outlay by as much as half. sure there is a monthly charge for subscription fees, but its not like they would not be paying a hefty gas bill instead

it is a valid business model and it will be successful as long as the network is built correctly. it will start small with centering in large population centers that are near other population centers. initially LA to SF is going to be too much but LA to San Diego will not be. (keep in mind, MOST of the Eastern Seaboard has several major population centers that are one QC or one swap away)

as the subscription base builds, the revenue brings in the cash to expand the base and increase the existing network to handle the increasing customer base.

 

[LakeLeaf]

, Nobody would put $30,000 worth of vending machines at a location that is expected to bring in $50 of revenue per week.

It looks like there are companies here that are going to install QC
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...2000-dc-quick-charging-target-for-u-s-by-2014

“Our two year goal is to sell 1,500 to 2,000 chargers,” Nissan North America spokesman Brendan Jones told us earlier this week. “We will accomplish this goal via our Retail and Wholesale process.”

Even though Nissan North America is selling the DC quick chargers instead of giving them away, charging might still be free initially, says Jones.

“Several partners plan to offer free charging at first and then have a subscription based service in the future,” Jones reassured us. "eTec, which has the most DC quick charging installations, is offering free charging for the first year.”

If everything goes according to plan, Nissan expects more than 800 DC quick charging stations will be installed in the U.S. in the next two months, with over 1,000 quick charging stations online by the end of 2012.

At the moment, expect most of those charging stations to be located in areas with an already high number of electric cars on the road, with most located in high population areas.

But we’d also expect popular routes, like the I-5 in California between Los Angeles and San Francisco, to soon see quick charging stations installed.

Gosh, don't they just recycle this post every year? Seems like we were going to have hundreds of QC's installed in 2011, and dozens and dozens back in 2010. I've move to the "believe it when I'm able to use it" camp.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i agree that it seems like QC's were just around the corner. in WA we went from Fall 2011 to Nov 30th to Feb 15th to end of March. now this story seems to back this timetable up. we do already have a few already built and appearing to be waiting for final inspection, so it is coming

 

[LakeLeaf]

i agree that it seems like QC's were just around the corner. in WA we went from Fall 2011 to Nov 30th to Feb 15th to end of March. now this story seems to back this timetable up. we do already have a few already built and appearing to be waiting for final inspection, so it is coming

With an incredibly slow rollout of L2-DC charge stations, it certainly won't take long for someone to start the cost/benefit analysis and conclude there isn't enough use to justify finishing what was already committed to. Can't tell if the charge stations are the chicken or the egg...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i agree that it seems like QC's were just around the corner. in WA we went from Fall 2011 to Nov 30th to Feb 15th to end of March. now this story seems to back this timetable up. we do already have a few already built and appearing to be waiting for final inspection, so it is coming

With an incredibly slow rollout of L2-DC charge stations, it certainly won't take long for someone to start the cost/benefit analysis and conclude there isn't enough use to justify finishing what was already committed to. Can't tell if the charge stations are the chicken or the egg...

sorry to hear the L2 rollout was slow. it has been anything but here. we have hundreds, maybe even thousands between Seattle and Olympia. but the QC?? there is one in Bellingham (just south of the Canadian border) that is built and ready to charge...but still waiting on something (i am guessing its better weather for a ground breaking ceremony)

 

[DaveEV]

But we’d also expect popular routes, like the I-5 in California between Los Angeles and San Francisco, to soon see quick charging stations installed.

While that's a popular long-distance travel route, it's will only be done in a LEAF if you are extremely patient.

Here is the route for those not familiar: http://g.co/maps/n8nn4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is nearly 400 miles, typically done at high speeds of 70-80 (speed limit is 70 mph), often done in very hot temperatures nearing 100*F, and covers significant mountain climbs - Grapevine includes nearly 4,000 ft of climbing - not to mention cross winds which can be significant at times.

Let's say you are patient and limit speeds to what the trucks normally do - 60-65 mph (even though the posted truck limit is 55 mph very few do that).

Quick charge to 80% will get you 60 miles at most at those speeds. You'll likely want to top off every 50 miles because if you misjudge something, you're calling a tow truck. Distances between rest stops are typically ~30 miles, gas stations are typically also spaced similarly apart, sometimes closer. You will want to have QC stations at as many spots as possible - so probably 20-30 mi intervals if not more. Add in L2 stations for situations where you get stranded between QC stations just in case.

OK - so best case scenario, it's say you traveling 50 miles between QCs and you're putting in 14-15 kWh or so each charge so you can charge as quick as possible while still keeping 10 miles of reserve at the bottom. Each charge is taking 30 minutes and you have to stop 8 times. Average speed on the road is 60 mph so driving time is 6.7 hours - charging time is 4 hours. Let's call it an 11 hour trip.

Normally, this drive takes 6-6.5 hours driven at 75 mph with 1-2 fuel/food stops and 1-2 additional bathroom stops.

How many people would be willing to add 5-6 hours to their trip along this route? There certainly isn't much along the way for any other reason to take that route.

Realistically, you're going to need a 130+mi freeway speed EV (2x range of the LEAF or more) if you're going to want to make this trek so you can cut the number of charge stops to 4 or less. The larger pack should also allow faster QC rates on average (more time spent charging at 50 kW instead of tapering off to avoid battery damage - 30 minutes could get you 25 kWh instead of 15 kWh).

 

[LakeLeaf]

With an incredibly slow rollout of L2-DC charge stations

sorry to hear the L2 rollout was slow

L2-DC = QC

 

[walterbays]

Gosh, don't they just recycle this post every year? Seems like we were going to have hundreds of QC's installed in 2011, and dozens and dozens back in 2010. I've move to the "believe it when I'm able to use it" camp.

It just shows you how advanced the EV infrastructure is. QC is about one month away, and always will be. Whereas hydrogen fuel cell cars are 8 years away, and always will be. And fusion power is 50 years away, and always will be.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Gosh, don't they just recycle this post every year? Seems like we were going to have hundreds of QC's installed in 2011, and dozens and dozens back in 2010. I've move to the "believe it when I'm able to use it" camp.

It just shows you how advanced the EV infrastructure is. QC is about one month away, and always will be. Whereas hydrogen fuel cell cars are 8 years away, and always will be. And fusion power is 50 years away, and always will be.

On the other side, AMAZING, we still not open for Leaf business - 2 public L2 ready. I am confident that there will be progress in EV range as well charging speed. I never thought I will be driving highway capable EV - guess what, I am driving it today. As of EV infrastructure it became clear now, that without fast charging options wide adoption will be difficult, but many may think is not necessary, too slow or too costly. Recycled new - yes, but progress also yes, very true there are 8 QC in TX, really there are 8 QC in TX already, and will be many more.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...One would think that the electrical utilities would view EV's as a chance to expand their business. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that my local utility views EV's as a problem to be avoided. I found this out when I called them and asked them to install a dozen charge stations around Salt Lake county.

The explanation they gave me was long and drawn out, but they have a captive market right now and see no reason to spend money on new markets like EV's.

The public utility does not always have the public good as their main goal.

KJD

Two weeks ago I made a brief presentation before the board of the local power co-op here, requesting that they consider public L2 charge stations (QC would make no sense here due to very low population density). They were interested but have a fiduciary responsibility to their rate payers, of whom I am one, to spend their money wisely. They thought that they might be able to justify partnering with another agency, such as a town, as a "research project". I then spoke to the town council and they are also interested. So, it may happen someday.

The problem here is the usual "chicken and egg" scenario: if there aren't any EVs why put in charge stations? If there aren't any charge stations the utility of EVs is reduced, so why buy one? So far as I am aware, at the present time there are only two L2 charge stations within 150 miles: the one in my garage and the one at a Nissan dealer 93 miles, and three mountain passes, away.

I am fortunate that the LEAF meets most of my driving needs without any public charge station infrastructure whatsoever. But I knew all that before I bought it. The reason I am pushing for charge stations is so that others might be more willing to take the EV plunge someday. It's a bit lonely having the only one.

 

[LakeLeaf]

Gosh, don't they just recycle this post every year? Seems like we were going to have hundreds of QC's installed in 2011, and dozens and dozens back in 2010. I've move to the "believe it when I'm able to use it" camp.

It just shows you how advanced the EV infrastructure is. QC is about one month away, and always will be. Whereas hydrogen fuel cell cars are 8 years away, and always will be. And fusion power is 50 years away, and always will be.

Trudat Walter!

 

[cwerdna]

But we’d also expect popular routes, like the I-5 in California between Los Angeles and San Francisco, to soon see quick charging stations installed.

While that's a popular long-distance travel route, it's will only be done in a LEAF if you are extremely patient.

Here is the route for those not familiar: http://g.co/maps/n8nn4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is nearly 400 miles, typically done at high speeds of 70-80 (speed limit is 70 mph), often done in very hot temperatures nearing 100*F, and covers significant mountain climbs - Grapevine includes nearly 4,000 ft of climbing - not to mention cross winds which can be significant at times.

Let's say you are patient and limit speeds to what the trucks normally do - 60-65 mph (even though the posted truck limit is 55 mph very few do that).

Quick charge to 80% will get you 60 miles at most at those speeds. You'll likely want to top off every 50 miles because if you misjudge something, you're calling a tow truck. Distances between rest stops are typically ~30 miles, gas stations are typically also spaced similarly apart, sometimes closer. You will want to have QC stations at as many spots as possible - so probably 20-30 mi intervals if not more. Add in L2 stations for situations where you get stranded between QC stations just in case.
....
Normally, this drive takes 6-6.5 hours driven at 75 mph with 1-2 fuel/food stops and 1-2 additional bathroom stops.

How many people would be willing to add 5-6 hours to their trip along this route? There certainly isn't much along the way for any other reason to take that route.

Realistically, you're going to need a 130+mi freeway speed EV (2x range of the LEAF or more) if you're going to want to make this trek so you can cut the number of charge stops to 4 or less. The larger pack should also allow faster QC rates on average (more time spent charging at 50 kW instead of tapering off to avoid battery damage - 30 minutes could get you 25 kWh instead of 15 kWh).

Yep. I think nobody except the most hardcore Leafers would even want to do the trip even w/QC infrastructure in place. It just adds too much time to an already long trip. If one does only 70 mph on I-5 during that trip, prepare to be passed by almost everyone except big rigs.

Funny that at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=109125#p109125" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, we had a discussion about where the QC stations should be located.

 

[JPWhite]

I'm gradually getting a sinking feeling that L2 is a waste of time other than at home and work and that L3 is going to turn out to have almost no negative effect on the battery... can't help but feel that the focus here needs to be on getting L3 in place first, then filling in with L2 on an as need basis!

Lots of people have come to that conclusion, but there are locations such as malls and movie theaters that could give you a reasonable charge with L2.

Yep. Add to list of useful locations, Hotels. Once Blink start charging I will cease public charging except one at a Holiday Inn, where I park for 3+ hours once per month.

 

[KevinSharpe]

Yep. Add to list of useful locations, Hotels

exactly where we are deploying in the UK http://www.zerocarbonworld.org/zero-net

 

[garygid]

Wow, how do you make it last 3 hours? :lol:

 

[edatoakrun]

Wow, how do you make it last 3 hours? :lol:

I've been trying to figure out exactly how to phrase this very question, when I call motels along Northern California's I-5 corridor, between Shasta County and the Bay Area-"do you rent rooms by the hour?"

There are no Charge stations, but there are plenty of places to plug in my modified L2 charger, with not much to do for the 6-7 hours (20-24 kWh) of charging I'd need for the 180+ mile trip, to reached the land of (L2) plenty, which starts at Vacaville.

Best case, 2 charge sessions, one a leisurely 1-2 hour meal break, and the other a 4-5 hour "main charge", including a nap (or whatever...) at a road-side motel.

 

[JPWhite]

Wow, how do you make it last 3 hours? :lol:

That's my little secret
Besides which I don't like to brag. :mrgreen: