How people use Leaf in Europe - QC as needed

[DaveinOlyWA]

when gas cars were first built, their adoption was slow. the reason? no easy access to fuel. there was no gas stations. so you had it delivered. it was expensive and sometimes it took weeks to arrive.

so driving the gas car was an "event" a novelty. but then as people used it, they realized it was more practical than they realized. soon, the demand increased.

business people saw a need AND a way to make money. a VERY small handful of people today also see that need. Better Place, Nissan and others. they see a potential

EVs are a very good option but they need support and a lot of it, but this support can be realized in a very cheap way. i do see charge stations like the one in Central WA that has 20 L2 stations primarily charged by solar. as money flows towards EV support, better ways to manage that electrical need will be developed. there is simply too much money to be made for companies that find a viable niche who get in early.

right now we have bad timing. too much uncertainty, too much financial instability from too many places thru out the world. that is making companies gunshy. it is really too bad. if today was 1992 instead of 2012 the atmosphere to out and make something happen would be completely different.

but companies have seen giants fall. they are scared and hesitant to make sure the same thing does not happen to them from overextending themselves. so everyone is taking a "sit back and let someone else do the legwork first" attitude.

it is really too bad because every day we are going farther and farther into a hole that is getting deeper and deeper.

 

[KJD]

Dave makes some good points here. I would just like to add that in the early days of the Model T Ford, there were some companies that were ready and willing to sell gasoline.

One would think that the electrical utilities would view EV's as a chance to expand their business. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that my local utility views EV's as a problem to be avoided. I found this out when I called them and asked them to install a dozen charge stations around Salt Lake county.

The explanation they gave me was long and drawn out, but they have a captive market right now and see no reason to spend money on new markets like EV's.

The public utility does not always have the public good as their main goal.

KJD

when gas cars were first built, their adoption was slow. the reason? no easy access to fuel. there was no gas stations. so you had it delivered. it was expensive and sometimes it took weeks to arrive.

so driving the gas car was an "event" a novelty. but then as people used it, they realized it was more practical than they realized. soon, the demand increased.

business people saw a need AND a way to make money. a VERY small handful of people today also see that need. Better Place, Nissan and others. they see a potential

EVs are a very good option but they need support and a lot of it, but this support can be realized in a very cheap way. i do see charge stations like the one in Central WA that has 20 L2 stations primarily charged by solar.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm gradually getting a sinking feeling that L2 is a waste of time other than at home and work and that L3 is going to turn out to have almost no negative effect on the battery... can't help but feel that the focus here needs to be on getting L3 in place first, then filling in with L2 on an as need basis!

Agreed.

Unfortunately, then we have this nonsense over at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and Tesla doing their own thing, just to confuse things further.

 

[GotMyleaf]

QC's are NOT needed in the large numbers that gas stations are due to the fact that an EV should leave the house fully charged EVERY morning. 100% of drivers of ICE's MUST use a gas station no matter what because they can't be fueled at home and have a full tank every morning.

Usually only a round trip that is beyond range of the home charging requires one. The exception is commercial use of an EV. Unless it's driven out of range of the home station, no charge/QC is needed. That will always be the case, people just don't drive over 50 miles in a day, everyday. If they do, they usually park the car for a few hours once at their destination where L2 will work.

I use the QC in Cypress, CA regularly for a 100-130 mile round trip. However, if there were an L2 at my destination, I wouldn't need the QC because the car spends a few hours just parked and even a 120v L1 would suffice. I just realized my true need on a trip to San Diego. I can make it to Oceanside (80 miles) on one charge and it's fine when it's my destination, because I plug-in, then hang-out. When I need to continue to San Diego, beyond that 80-mile trip, a three hour pause is required. I must plug-in, where I don't want to hang-out, so I can reach my destination.

So our target should be major traffic arteries that connect population centers. They would be used by drivers that are going beyond 60 miles to reach their destination. Once at the destination, there is usually somewhere to plug-in, or use the QC on the way back.

 

[cwerdna]

When I need to continue to San Diego, beyond that 80-mile trip, a three hour pause is required. I must plug-in, where I don't want to hang-out, so I can reach my destination.

So our target should be major traffic arteries that connect population centers. They would be used by drivers that are going beyond 60 miles to reach their destination. Once at the destination, there is usually somewhere to plug-in, or use the QC on the way back.

Some are needed in or near population centers. Good example is that if I visit some of my friends in San Francisco, it's ~60 miles one way (mostly highway). If I had a Leaf, I could make it, as long as I go slow enough but forget about the return w/o charging.

Unfortunately, on the other end, in the case of one person I visit, the house she lives in was built in 1908 (LOTS of old houses in SF). There's also a lack of parking at the house. I'd be taking up their valuable single garage spot to charge. She and the other occupants aren't tech savvy nor do they have an EV nor any sort of L2 EVSE (why would they?). If we wanted to go out in a car, well, I'd need to top off so that I don't run out or take her ICE (except that she got into a wreck and doesn't have a car now).

I have no idea about the electrical system at their house and would be wary of wanting to even L1 charge there, which would be WAY too slow to charge me up enough to drive home. And, CA electricity is expensive, so I'd rather not leech off their electricity either.

I have another friend in SF who lives in a house built in 1927 and used to date someone in SF who lived in a house built in 1926.

So, here's where QCs would be real nice in SF.

 

[coqui]

Here in NC we are hurting for ANY infrastucture. Doesn't matter - L2 or L3 - we need it all. I know of just a couple L1's and L2's and zero L3's here.

Best idea would be L3's at rest stops, heck, if you stop at a rest stop you're going to spend 20 minutes there anyway so an L3 is a good choice.

Trouble with an L2 at a mall is that I never spend multi-hours shopping. One hour max and I'm outta there. Be ok at a movie theatre though. Trouble is, netflix/hulu etc has made theatres obsolete.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I believe people not wanting infrastructure either do not need range or somehow erratically accepted that ev can't be popular transportation choice. Accepted that in order to survive you have to carry with you a lot of extension cords and upgraded L1 or small generator (which translate to carry gas canister in ICE). I refuse to accept that this is future of ev. I want to show people that ev it is alternative (maybe not perfect now but already viable option) . What I want in my area, is the best infrastructure that is offered right now, not same what I have in my garage. L3 it is a good start but I want to make sure that can be easily upgradeable to L10 (or equivalent) that will be available in the future.

Dave thank you for nice remainder

when gas cars were first built, their adoption was slow. the reason? no easy access to fuel. there was no gas stations. so you had it delivered. it was expensive and sometimes it took weeks to arrive.
so driving the gas car was an "event" a novelty. but then as people used it, they realized it was more practical than they realized. soon, the demand increased.

 

[garygid]

Imagine (or estimate) the placement and number of gas stations and pumps required if every ICE left home with a full tank every day (like local storage of magic solar-to-gas)!

Even with gas tanks half the present size, suddenly the remaining fueling requirement would drop by about 95%, and virtually all "neighborhood" gas stations would have essentially no business, so they would close.

What would remain is something like the QC-ish infrastructure needed for future EVs.

When a little planning becomes common, people would no longer get on a 100-mile turnpike with only 50 miles of gas.

No need for 2 (or 3) gas stations on one corner.

An interesting mental exercise, perhaps?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the only thing that has really been cleared up on this thread is that everyone has a different opinion and good reasons to back it up which basically means that ALL OPTIONS are welcome because they do fill a need, a big one.

L2 is great for errand day. this is multiple stops of of less than an hour each.

L1 is great for the commuter who parks in the morning, takes off at night

L3 is for the tourist, or rural dweller or even the urban dweller seeking fresh air in the country. it could also be for the apartment dweller who do not have home charging options.

then we have battery swap stations; EV fleets for businesses, taxi's delivery companies, etc.

it is all welcome and the sooner the better!

 

[edatoakrun]

DaveinOlyWA
...L2 is great for errand day. this is multiple stops of of less than an hour each...

Sorry, but i disagree about public L2. The economic model just doesn't work well, absent a pricing mechanism that will allow efficient L2 charger utilization, once PHEVs enter the market en masse.

Xpost below from:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=713&start=940" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

scottf200 wrote:
"...That will be the price for the popularity of plug-in electric vehicles is that charging stations will frequently be busy. Everyone has a right to run on the battery. "


The problem was, the charge stations were NOT "busy".

The parking spots adjacent to the L2s were occupied by cars, driven by a**holes, who were PREVENTING the chargers from being "busy".

The only way to efficiently utilize both the space and the adjacent L2 charger, is to charge for each product separately, the parking spot, the electricity consumption when charging, AND ALSO the cost to the L2 provider, of blocking the charger's use by others, even when NOT charging.

This is theoretically possible, but obviously cumbersome.

This, IMO, is why AC L2 will always be only marginally useful in terms of public infrastructure.

And why I expect the superior model of DC charging, at fast charge stations, to largely replace slow AC for public EV charging, as EVs proliferate.

 

[adric22]

Imagine (or estimate) the placement and number of gas stations and pumps required if every ICE left home with a full tank every day (like local storage of magic solar-to-gas)!

Even with gas tanks half the present size, suddenly the remaining fueling requirement would drop by about 95%, and virtually all "neighborhood" gas stations would have essentially no business, so they would close.

Very good point. A better way to look at it would be to take your average gas car. Lets say it gets 25 mpg. You have a filling station in your garage. But the car only has a 3 gallon tank. So you can only go 75 miles. How often would the average person buy gas at a gas station? I'm willing to bet over 95% of regular gas stations would be out of business.

So it is important to keep in mind the economics of QC stations as well as theoretical battery-swap stations. People that run such stations will do so for profit only, not just for the purpose of making a few people happy. It is very hard to make a business case for a QC and nearly impossible for a battery swap.

I'd say the charging station business is very much like the vending machine business. You pick the type and quantity of machines to match demand. To compare with a QC station, Nobody would put $30,000 worth of vending machines at a location that is expected to bring in $50 of revenue per week. You wouldn't even break even for 15 years. To compare with a battery swap station, imagine spending $1,000,000 or more investment with an expected revenue of $25 per week. Insane, right?

Now... Look at L2 stations. You can spend maybe $3,000 and with any luck be bringing in $50 a week in revenue. Payback period is about a year. After that it is all profit.

 

[edatoakrun]

... It is very hard to make a business case for a QC...

...To compare with a QC station, Nobody would put $30,000 worth of vending machines at a location that is expected to bring in $50 of revenue per week...

Now... Look at L2 stations. You can spend maybe $3,000 and with any luck be bringing in $50 a week in revenue. Payback period is about a year. After that it is all profit.

Try the same analysis with more realistic, IMO, estimates of $500 of markup on the electricity each week, sold from the DC charger, and $10 a week of gross profit from resale of the kWh from the L2 charger, as opposed to the separate revenue (and cost) equation for the L2 parking space.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the charging infrastructure will come but it will be expensive to use but will not be effective in helping the EV movement until it becomes much more convenient for the average user. that means L1/L2 charging everywhere. they literally need to be at least one on every other block

L3 should be located in a 10 to 20 mile grid. now the cost? well, lets look at that

gas prices are expected to hit near $5 a gallon. NBC News reported Sunday that Chicago will be at an estimated $4.95 a gallon on Memorial Day Weekend. granted, that wont last. it will go back down this winter. but Summer 2013 we will see the same thing but in a slightly higher cost and so on. that is pretty much a given. remove the economic downtown of fall 2008/spring 2009 and we see a continuous rise in prices.

so we take gas at $4.50 in a 30 mpg car that is 15 cents per mile. a QC for $10 is essentially the same price. only need to collect 66 miles of range. i think we can all agree (that would be rare!!) that is very doable.

but right now, we cant see that. but we can see dumping $50 of gas in the tank?? like wow!! why is that?

problem i see with that. you dont have a choice about the gas other than parking the car. you do have charging options. so if faced with paying $10, its either make do with the convenience or pay for that convenience like anyone else.

you can always plan your trips to only charge at home or use cheaper charging options (which will come)

Sorry, but i disagree about public L2. The economic model just doesn't work well, absent a pricing mechanism that will allow efficient L2 charger utilization, once PHEVs enter the market en masse.

as far as the pricing structure of L2? i am guessing what will emerge from the mess will be something very few had predicted. i look at the charging options and the companies behind it and none have the money to really implement anything other than small local options. they will all be swallowed up by big money (most likely oil) and consolidated into a nationwide network and they will probably charge based on subscription rates and power used. in the early days we on the edge can only hope for semi saturation by a million tiny cuts.

when these companies are bought out. we might see a $10 monthly subscription and say 35 cents per Kw used.

pay $25 a month, get your power for 25 cents a k and so on.

what i would not be surprised to see (since is it now available) is you simply bump your smartphone and the charge appears on your cellphone bill

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

... It is very hard to make a business case for a QC...

...To compare with a QC station, Nobody would put $30,000 worth of vending machines at a location that is expected to bring in $50 of revenue per week...

Now... Look at L2 stations. You can spend maybe $3,000 and with any luck be bringing in $50 a week in revenue. Payback period is about a year. After that it is all profit.

Try the same analysis with more realistic, IMO, estimates of $500 of markup on the electricity each week, sold from the DC charger, and $10 a week of gross profit from resale of the kWh from the L2 charger, as opposed to the separate revenue (and cost) equation for the L2 parking space.

$50 a week means you need to take some night classes in the "Art of vending machine placement"

 

[KJD]

If Nissan can actually reduce the price of a QC station to less than 10 grand that would be a start. See this article on Green car reports. They want 2000 of them in USA by 2014.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1072933_nissan-sets-1500--2000-dc-quick-charging-target-for-u-s-by-2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Of we could just reduce the price of any new product then it would be ok but that product must pass the test of consumer demand

Add far as what product? Ooh I don't think it matters

 

[EdmondLeaf]

... It is very hard to make a business case for a QC...

...To compare with a QC station, Nobody would put $30,000 worth of vending machines at a location that is expected to bring in $50 of revenue per week...

Now... Look at L2 stations. You can spend maybe $3,000 and with any luck be bringing in $50 a week in revenue. Payback period is about a year. After that it is all profit.

Try the same analysis with more realistic, IMO, estimates of $500 of markup on the electricity each week, sold from the DC charger, and $10 a week of gross profit from resale of the kWh from the L2 charger, as opposed to the separate revenue (and cost) equation for the L2 parking space.

If you start something completely new, and worry so much about economics than you destined for failure. eVgo/Walgreens already installed 7 QC in Houston, but if we will insist we do not need them, and try to prove they are wrong, what may happen?

What does not make much sense today, will make a lot of sense tomorrow. I believe that there will be progress in range and speed of charging.

https://www.evgonetwork.com/eVgo_Charging_Stations/

 

[garygid]

If governments (city, county, state, and federal) can spend a Billion
a day to support (or providence subsidies for) parking lots,
(streets for) gas transportation, refueling areas, H2 stations,
CNG facilities, oil company operations, and wars-for-oil,
there is money to use on an EV infrastructure instead.

The "they" behind the government just do not want
to lose their "black opium" market.

 

[Ingineer]

I have no idea about the electrical system at their house and would be wary of wanting to even L1 charge there, which would be WAY too slow to charge me up enough to drive home. And, CA electricity is expensive, so I'd rather not leech off their electricity either.

I have another friend in SF who lives in a house built in 1927 and used to date someone in SF who lived in a house built in 1926.

I've charged many times at various older properties in SF, including at a 1912 house with only 2 twenty amp screw-in fuses covering the whole house. I was able to use my "Quick240" at a full 3.84kW at this (and many other old) locations without any problems. We just made sure not to use any large appliances during the charge period, and I've never popped a fuse. Be wary of things like the fridge when attempting this though. I also carefully monitored the voltage drop to make sure there wasn't excessive drop somewhere that could be causing heat build-up.

Disclaimer: Don't attempt charging at any location you aren't fully qualified (or have a qualified electrician) to asses first! Burning your friend's (or worse; lover's) house down is no way to promote the EV! =)

-Phil

 

[EdmondLeaf]

, Nobody would put $30,000 worth of vending machines at a location that is expected to bring in $50 of revenue per week.

It looks like there are companies here that are going to install QC
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...2000-dc-quick-charging-target-for-u-s-by-2014

“Our two year goal is to sell 1,500 to 2,000 chargers,” Nissan North America spokesman Brendan Jones told us earlier this week. “We will accomplish this goal via our Retail and Wholesale process.”

Even though Nissan North America is selling the DC quick chargers instead of giving them away, charging might still be free initially, says Jones.

“Several partners plan to offer free charging at first and then have a subscription based service in the future,” Jones reassured us. "eTec, which has the most DC quick charging installations, is offering free charging for the first year.”

If everything goes according to plan, Nissan expects more than 800 DC quick charging stations will be installed in the U.S. in the next two months, with over 1,000 quick charging stations online by the end of 2012.

At the moment, expect most of those charging stations to be located in areas with an already high number of electric cars on the road, with most located in high population areas.

But we’d also expect popular routes, like the I-5 in California between Los Angeles and San Francisco, to soon see quick charging stations installed.