How people use Leaf in Europe - QC as needed
- Thread starter EdmondLeaf
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jkirkebo
Well-known member
DaveinOlyWA said:
No, that looks like one of the SGTE units.
EdmondLeaf
Well-known member
Ingineer
Well-known member
Thanks for that link. Interesting presentation comparing QC's to vending machines rather than gas pumps as per usual.EdmondLeaf said:
-Phil
NYLEAF
Well-known member
I e-mailed Fuji...the DC quick charger is not available for public use currently. They said they'd email me if/when that changes. What a bummer. I Google Mapped their offices...they're like 2 miles from both I-95 and the Garden State Parkway, and they're just 50 miles from my house...perfect QuickCharging distance! Oh, well...
tps
Well-known member
Same for me, I'm about 50 miles the other way! It will certainly be interesting to see how the QC network develops here.NYLEAF said:
Last summer when I rented the Hertz LEAF and brought it to Philly from Manhattan, my intermediate charge point was the parking garage at the train station at Hamilton NJ. Charging was free, but I had to pay for parking and supply the EVSE (they have a 6-20R 240V outlet). Next time I'll be driving my LEAF to Manhattan; don't know whether I'll use this same charging stop. Since then, there's a charging point in one of the Palmer Square garages in Princeton, plus I bet a lot of the Nissan dealers along the way have L2 chargers.
Ingineer said:
I'm kind of echoing Phil here, but thanks for that link. I try to explain to people that EVSEs and "charging stations" shouldn't be expected to be just like a gas station. I also like the point of how a typical vending machine transaction is a few dollars, where a transaction at a gas station is ~$50.
davewill
Well-known member
I found the statement "Price erosion is inevitable in all markets." to ring very true. They know that pricing has to go down as charging stations become less rare. That's why I haven't worried too much about current prices, except that I WON'T deal with subscriptions...I just see no upside or future in it.Ingineer said:
I think you're attitude represents the vast majority of EV owners. Since it's hard to see a business model that works without a subscription, you're also saying there isn't a sustainable model for QCs. Another way of looking at this is to say that home charging is the biggest foe of public charging. If you could fuel a gas car in your garage for $2.50/gallon overnight how often would you go to a gas station to fill up at $4.00/gallon?davewill said:
There would be a lot of very empty gas stations!
davewill
Well-known member
I didn't say that at all, nor do I believe it. I believe there's a model of pay as you go coupled with selling coffee, doughnuts, and the like while you're waiting for your charge. My beef with a subscription isn't that it's expensive, it's that I'm locked into one provider. Am I supposed to pay TWO or THREE separate subscription fees to make sure I can use all the QCs in town?SanDust said:
lpickup
Well-known member
Certainly if we're to believe the stories we hear that gas station owners only make a penny on each gallon of gas they sell (despite the enormous upfront capital costs to build and run the gas station in the first place) then I completely agree with this. Even more so! Now with a 5 minute pay at the pump fueling experience, apparently they are in dire straights because no one comes into the store. With QC-ing you've got a captive customer for 15-20 minutes easy! Selling them add-on services like coffee and snacks should be like shooting fish in a barrel!davewill said:
edatoakrun
Well-known member
Refresh our memories, Sandust.
Exactly what sort of vehicle, do you drive?
mkjayakumar
Well-known member
I have seen quite a few posts not in favor of L2 charging stations, but I beg to differ. There are quite a few locations L2 makes a lot of sense:
- Offices
- School/Colleges
- Movie theatres
- Malls
- Motels
- Church
- Offices
- School/Colleges
- Movie theatres
- Malls
- Motels
- Church
Luft
Well-known member
A L2 charger would be useful any place where I'm going to be for a significant amount of time. The places you mentioned are some excellent examples.mkjayakumar said:
However, although they could be useful they are mostly unnecessary as I almost always have enough charge to do whatever I need to do and get back home.
So, for me the question becomes "is a level 2 charge worth the price?" Blink wants to charge up to $2.50 per hour to plug in. That's not worth it to me.
I can see the value of a minimal fee to plug in. It would allow me to not be quite so disciplined in how I drive my LEAF but I don't really need it. If I'm afraid of running out of juice then a DC QC station would be my preferred way of getting enough charge to make it home.
I just don't see a successful business model for level 2 chargers. They are just too slow to be good range extenders. Maybe this will change someday if they get 70 Amp charging stations and a lot of cars that can use them.
Luft
Well-known member
That's my take on subscriptions as well. I don't mind paying $40 per month even if I only use the DC QC stations a half a dozen times but for that I want to be able to go anywhere. That would require a huge network of chargers.davewill said:
Apparently AeroVironment is going to have a flat rate of $2.50 per use to charge from their DC QC stations. At that price driving an EV across country will be cheaper than driving my Prius. I can see this fact helping the adoption of EVs and the adoption of EVs will help the e-fuel industry.
lpickup
Well-known member
Remember you are talking about YOU. That doesn't mean that everyone is in the same boat. You knew what the limitations of the LEAF were when you bought it and you would not have bought it if those limitations did not meet your driving needs. Think of all the people out there that honestly cannot buy a LEAF (or other BEV100 vehicle) because of range concerns. For them those spots may mean the difference between being able to make the car work for them or not.Luft said:
Not in the sense that you are envisioning them. But in many of the examples that Jay put forth, the hosts (if educated properly on the actual cost of electricity being used) would likely be willing to foot the bill as part of the expense of doing business and attracting customers or patrons to their sites, or perhaps do so out of an honest desire to "green up" (getting a LEED point does not count in my book because that's all they see is the "point").Luft said:
lpickup
Well-known member
Oh, and I don't know how an idea like this could change the L2 business model landscape: Volvo's proposed new charging standard At a minimum that would take the cost of electricity out the equation and the only cost would be that of the EVSE itself. Granted, even for L2 we have a long way to go before costs are reasonable. Commercial L2 installations seem to run about $8K from what I've heard. I think a light pole retrofit option would go a long way in making widespread EVSE installations possible.
Luft
Well-known member
lpickup said:
I think we actually agree. The reason I don't see a workable business model is because of the "Blink Syndrome." The idea that L2 EVSE stations can be installed and people with throw buckets of money to use them.
I absolutely agree that if there are two stores one with a charging stations and the other without, I would be attracted to the one that has a station that I could charge my LEAF at little or no cost. So in that sense L2 charging stations could have value if bundled in with the entire business model. I just don't think it will work as a separate business.
Don't get me wrong. I hope L2 charging stations pop up all over the place. They are useful particularly if I want to travel to another city using the help of a DC QC station and then spend time there. They would be useful. Just not $2.50 per hour useful.
GRA
Well-known member
I agree that $2.50/hr for 3.3 kWh is not a good deal, but 3.3 kW chargers will soon be gone and 6.6 kW or more will be the standard, which is a lot better (if still too high -- $1.50-$2.00 would be more like it). Too bad for the early adopters, but you knew the system was immature and decided to get in anyway. As it happens, I can think of several places where L2s at destinations would be the difference between making a day trip and not doing so, _provided_ I have a 6.6kW charger.Luft said:
Luft
Well-known member
I completely agree. The higher rate chargers could make a difference. Even 6.6 kWh chargers will start to make L2 EVES stations more attractive and if chargers start supporting 70 Amp charging stations things will get really interesting. I don't regret being an early adopter. I love driving my LEAF and plan on keeping it for many years. But for me and I think most, Blink's business model won't work. That is not to say that I would never use one of their charging stations. If I'm about to be stranded I'll pay a premium but I'm thinking that's not a good business model. Maybe time and free market forces will bring reasonable prices.GRA said:
One thing that I don't like about Blink's business model is that if someone plugs in and leaves for eight hours but for any reason their charge terminates early (say after 10 minutes) they get billed for eight hours. Laws need to be changed so that e-fuel providers can charge by the kWh.
