Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon

[LTLFTcomposite]

The current rise is being "fueled" by futures speculators gambling on world events forcing a price rise, leading to quick profits on their futures contracts.

Those quick profits (gains) can be quickly offset by losses when the market goes the other way. The latter never makes the news though.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The current rise is being "fueled" by futures speculators gambling on world events forcing a price rise, leading to quick profits on their futures contracts.

Those quick profits (gains) can be quickly offset by losses when the market goes the other way. The latter never makes the news though.

I did say "gambling"...

Over the long-term futures speculation is just noise in the data and fundamentals rule. But it can have big short-term impacts on oil prices.

 

[GRA]

... there's nothing we can do about trucks.

A friend of mine runs his entire fleet of semi's on Natural Gas. His is a local outfit that maybe drives 100-150 mile routes.

Sure, you can do that fairly easily with local P&D, but that's not long-haul trucking. It would be possible to move long-haul trucks to NG at a high cost for infrastructure and more frequent fuel stops, but that would take decades and almost certainly raise shipping prices. Indeed, that was one of the main aspects of the Pickens' Plan, originally for all vehicles, then IIRR scaled back to just trucks and busses. Pickens was overoptimistic by a couple of decades on how long such a transition would take, and the costs of same.

 

[FairwoodRed]

Once upon a time you had to take possession and hold a commody for a few days before you could sell it again. The idea was that it would keep most of the gambling out of commodities. I wish we could go back to that...

 

[Nekota]

Now news beginning to fret about $6 gas prices.

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/02-28-12-forget-5-dollar-gas-the-new-worry-is-6-dollar-gas-middle-east-strife-threatens-to-push-prices-to-unprecedented-levels-1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

It would be possible to move long-haul trucks to NG at a high cost for infrastructure and more frequent fuel stops, but that would take decades and almost certainly raise shipping prices.

A couple of engine manufacturer are gearing up to make CNG versions of their truck engines.. I dont see why installing a large CNG tank at a truck stop is that hard to do, and the Feds should help with that.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

A couple of engine manufacturer are gearing up to make CNG versions of their truck engines.. I dont see why installing a large CNG tank at a truck stop is that hard to do, and the Feds should help with that.

I must be mistaken about how CNG works. Doesn't the compressing happen as the gas (in gaseous form) is forced into the vehicle's tank under high pressure? Or does a CNG pump pump liquid like LP?

 

[siai]

A couple of engine manufacturer are gearing up to make CNG versions of their truck engines.. I dont see why installing a large CNG tank at a truck stop is that hard to do, and the Feds should help with that.

I must be mistaken about how CNG works. Doesn't the compressing happen as the gas (in gaseous form) is forced into the vehicle's tank under high pressure? Or does a CNG pump pump liquid like LP?

Natural gas does not liquify under pressure (like propane). For small vehicles it is compressed to 3600 psi and stays in a gasous state. For vehicles that require a lot of fuel, such as over the road trucks, the gas is cooled to a very low temperature to cause it to liquify. This is the only way to get the range needed for the vehicle in a reasonable sized container. The other issue in heavy duty trucks is they normally run on a diesel cycle (compression ignition) not a spark ignition system. The diesel cycle returns more energy per btu then the spark ignition so fuel economy suffers. Natural gas will not ignite under compression at any pressure. There are companies such as Cummins/Westport that have developed fuel injectors that have a heated element that allows operation on pure natural gas and a diesel cycle. The main problem, which is being addressed, is an infrastructure of LNG (liquified Natural Gas) stations along interstates to provide fueling stops within the range of LNG trucks. Sort of like the need for L3 charging for EV's.

 

[garygid]

At what pressure (at 70ºF) does CNG liquify?

Just paid $4.3999 per gallon for Regular here in southern
CA yesterday. And, still climbing, it seems.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I must be mistaken about how CNG works. Doesn't the compressing happen as the gas (in gaseous form) is forced into the vehicle's tank under high pressure? Or does a CNG pump pump liquid like LP?

umm, hmmm? never really thought about it but it has to be under pressure to maintain liquid form so guessing it flows into the tank based on that pressure being maintained.

it is not gaseous in your tank other than maybe the top half of the tank.

 

[AndyH]

It would be possible to move long-haul trucks to NG at a high cost for infrastructure and more frequent fuel stops, but that would take decades and almost certainly raise shipping prices.

A couple of engine manufacturer are gearing up to make CNG versions of their truck engines.. I dont see why installing a large CNG tank at a truck stop is that hard to do, and the Feds should help with that.

The Feds don't have to help with that since the long-haul truck fleets that are already moving in this direction have their own fueling infrastructure. There's no need to flesh-out a 'national NG refueling network' in order to put 20% of long-haul trucks on NG and thus make OPEC oil imports redundant. This has already been covered in the Pickens Plan thread.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...atural-gas-in-pickens-clean-energy-drive.html

About 22,000 natural gas-powered heavy duty trucks were on U.S. roads in 2010, a number that also includes already abundant gas-powered Class 7 vehicles like garbage trucks, the Natural Gas Vehicles for America trade association estimates. There are about 700,000 long-haul trucks for hire on the road, according to the American Trucking Associations.

 

[LakeLeaf]

Now news beginning to fret about $6 gas prices.

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/02-28-12-forget-5-dollar-gas-the-new-worry-is-6-dollar-gas-middle-east-strife-threatens-to-push-prices-to-unprecedented-levels-1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe we can change the topic title to "Gasoline May Rise Above $10 a Gallon" so we keep our bases covered for at least a few months.

We're at four and a half bucks a gallon here, and still rising.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...We're at four and a half bucks a gallon here, and still rising.

And we're at $3.16/gallon, and still rising.

But it is strange driving a LEAF and just not caring what gas prices are (save for the negative impact on the economy).

 

[Nubo]

You can order personalized bumper stickers at Vistaprint.com

 

[Nekota]

Now news beginning to fret about $6 gas prices.

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/02-28-12-forget-5-dollar-gas-the-new-worry-is-6-dollar-gas-middle-east-strife-threatens-to-push-prices-to-unprecedented-levels-1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe we can change the topic title to "Gasoline May Rise Above $10 a Gallon" so we keep our bases covered for at least a few months.

We're at four and a half bucks a gallon here, and still rising.

When it makes it to $5 I'll "X" it out and move on to the next unit up

 

[GRA]

It would be possible to move long-haul trucks to NG at a high cost for infrastructure and more frequent fuel stops, but that would take decades and almost certainly raise shipping prices.

A couple of engine manufacturer are gearing up to make CNG versions of their truck engines.. I dont see why installing a large CNG tank at a truck stop is that hard to do, and the Feds should help with that.

The Feds don't have to help with that since the long-haul truck fleets that are already moving in this direction have their own fueling infrastructure. There's no need to flesh-out a 'national NG refueling network' in order to put 20% of long-haul trucks on NG and thus make OPEC oil imports redundant. This has already been covered in the Pickens Plan thread.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...atural-gas-in-pickens-clean-energy-drive.html

About 22,000 natural gas-powered heavy duty trucks were on U.S. roads in 2010, a number that also includes already abundant gas-powered Class 7 vehicles like garbage trucks, the Natural Gas Vehicles for America trade association estimates. There are about 700,000 long-haul trucks for hire on the road, according to the American Trucking Associations.

Personally, until we replace every coal-fired electricity plant with a NG-fired one, I think CNG vehicles should be second priority, although companies with large fleets (lLike UPS) and defined-routes may find it cost effective to switch. And any large-scale switch to CNG vehicles assumes that prices will remain as low as they currently are. I think this is unlikely once demand starts to catch up to supply. And fracking will inevitably face tightened regs, which will also boost the price (I've seen estimates of an additional $150k/drilled well).

 

[Stoaty]

Personally, until we replace every coal-fired electricity plant with a NG-fired one, I think CNG vehicles should be second priority, although companies with large fleets (lLike UPS) and defined-routes may find it cost effective to switch. And any large-scale switch to CNG vehicles assumes that prices will remain as low as they currently are. I think this is unlikely once demand starts to catch up to supply. And fracking will inevitably face tightened regs, which will also boost the price (I've seen estimates of an additional $150k/drilled well).

While natural gas is cleaner than coal in regards to pollutants like mercury, it is not any better for climate change:

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/03/01/428764/ddrop-in-warming-requires-rapid-massive-deployment039-of-zero-carbon-power-not-gas/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[LakeLeaf]

I think CNG vehicles should be second priority, although companies with large fleets (lLike UPS) and defined-routes may find it cost effective to switch. And any large-scale switch to CNG vehicles assumes that prices will remain as low as they currently are. I think this is unlikely once demand starts to catch up to supply.

I think there is little doubt that the low price of CNG is because it isn't in much demand, especially as a replacement for gasoline. If there was enough conversion, the industry would end up just keeping the price low enough to keep market share, but much higher then now.

However - since that time is still a ways away - a CNG conversion on your car/truck could be worthwhile for the next 5-10 years or so.

 

[scottf200]

> $8 in the UK

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#/video/world/2012/03/01/ctw-pkg-anderson-fuel-prices-in-uk-vs-us.cnn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Becky Anderson takes a ride around London to show how much fuel costs and an alternative fuel you can get plugged into.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have seena few studies on widespdead conversion toCNG and seem to think that the demand would be too highand we would run out ina few decades