Battery Replacement Program Details

[edatoakrun]

...So why aren't people suing for failure to sell a spare part for a car? ...

It would appear to be because Nissan prefers to buy back LEAFs, replace their batteries under the capacity warranty, or otherwise satisfy all those LEAF owners with large losses of available capacity and range.

BTW, anyone hear from TaylorSFGuy lately?

He might have ~110k-120k miles on his LEAF by now.

I sure hope he does capacity/range tests on his LEAF and posts the results before he lets Nissan do any battery work...


edit-found his recent stats on p.1

TaylorSFGuy

Location: Kent, Washington
Delivery Date: 13 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1561...


Mileage as of April 2, 2014 is 111,000 - 210 GID at 100%

 

[thankyouOB]

it is all very strange.
as i live in a temperate place, my battery is still at 12 bars after ~35k miles.
i havent tested the range in recent months, as i use the car mainly to commute and my partner is not all that interested in leaving the ICE behind when a 65- to 80-mile trip may involve slow driving on the freeway or streets, perhaps even a charging stop.

Regardless, I should, as indicated above, be able to spring for a battery if I want to return to full range in the coming year.

 

[nosuchthing]

They don't want to throw good money after bad. They'll offer new batteries when new chemistry is available. I'm hoping in the next 2 years.

Why would they swap old batteries with new old ones only to have us come back 3 years later -- again -- requesting same? I mean, I'd take it for free. But that's not gonna happen.

Pressure from Tesla/GM will push or, in fact, is pushing them to test out and eventually introduce newer chemistry. And that's when new batteries will become available to all Leafs. They're just mum about it.

 

[GIBBER]

They don't want to trow good money after bad. They'll offer new batteries when new chemistry is available. I'm hoping in the next 2 years.

Why would they swap old batteries with new old ones only to have us come back 3 years later -- again -- requesting same? I mean, I'd take it for free. But that's not gonna happen.

Pressure from Tesla/GM will push or, in fact, is pushing them to test out and eventually introduce newer chemistry. And that's when new batteries will become available to all Leafs. They're just mum about it.

Exactly my thinking. The puzzle pieces seem to point towards the next gen battery being available soon (maybe model year 2015?) and that should finally snap it all together.

 

[JPWhite]

They don't want to throw good money after bad. They'll offer new batteries when new chemistry is available. I'm hoping in the next 2 years.

I'm hoping in the next 2 months

Pressure from Tesla/GM will push or, in fact, is pushing them to test out and eventually introduce newer chemistry.

Indeed additional competition will keep them on their toes, however new chemistry will only assist with the Arizona heat degradation issue, which they are right to address first. Nissan are however determined to avoid thermal management of their packs, which this very cold winter affected LEAF's including mine quite dramatically. A new chemistry will do little for cold weather performance, keeping the battery toasty is necessary. It would be as easy as turning on the heating blanket at a higher temperature when plugged in, in fact Nissan should take a leaf out of Tesla's book and retroactively make this change to MY 2012 LEAF's and beyond with a firmware change, and offer blankets to 2011 owners who think they may need them.

 

[Valdemar]

I've spoken to several Leaf owners I ran into while charging at dealerships. Pretty much none of them was aware of the battery issues and they all were sure if anything happens they are covered because there is "the warranty". They all were happy with their Leafs. Ignorance is a bliss. I suspect this sample represent the majority of Leaf owner base and Nissan is under no pressure to come forward with the actual battery replacement program at this point.

 

[Stoaty]

So we don't know if LEAF batteries will meet (or fall short or exceed) Nissan’s battery life projections in “normal” use, though It doesn’t look to me like the results are likely be way off.

All we know is that the vast majority of LEAF batteries will probably last just over 60 months/60,000 miles to EOL (66.5% retained capacity), since that is the capacity warranty Nissan was willing to put in place. I figure mine will probably last about 6 years, and yes, I consider that to be "way off" and a "defect" based on the faulty information and assurances that Nissan gave before selling the Leaf. After less than 3 years, I am close to a 20% capacity loss that was purportedly going to happen at 5 years. I live and drive my Leaf in Los Angeles, the "normal" climate Nissan used for their calculations.

 

[mwalsh]

^ What he said!

 

[KJD]

All we know is that the vast majority of LEAF batteries will probably last just over 60 months/60,000 miles to EOL (66.5% retained capacity), since that is the capacity warranty Nissan was willing to put in place. I figure mine will probably last about 6 years, and yes, I consider that to be "way off" and a "defect" based on the faulty information and assurances that Nissan gave before selling the Leaf. After less than 3 years, I am close to a 20% capacity loss that was purportedly going to happen at 5 years. I live and drive my Leaf in Los Angeles, the "normal" climate Nissan used for their calculations.

+1
When I buy a car new, I plan on it lasting at least 10 years or 100,000 miles. After driving a LEAF for 20,000 miles, the car has been very trouble free, save for the battery being down 15% in just 2 years time.

When I get to the 5 year mark I plan to drive every EV on the market at that time. Nissan has some work to do if they want me to be a return customer.

 

[mwalsh]

...the car has been very trouble free, save for the battery being down 15% in just 2 years time.

+1. In fact, I was just thinking about this again yesterday. Extermely happy with everything about the car except for the way the battery pack is holding up; the functionality of the heater; and the qualit of the horn. The heater and the horn I was able to do something about myself, in the aftermarket. The battery I can't do anything with.

 

[TomT]

I disagree. Many others in much more temperate climates, such as me in southern California, are also dealing with significant heat-related battery degradation...

And by making the first capacity bar 15%, Nissan was able to effectively hide a good part of the degradation from those who do not have any from of after-market metering... I have a hard time believing that is coincidence...

however new chemistry will only assist with the Arizona heat degradation issue, which they are right to address first.

 

[JPWhite]

I disagree. Many others in much more temperate climates, such as me in southern California, are also dealing with significant heat-related battery degradation...

And by making the first capacity bar 15%, Nissan was able to effectively hide a good part of the degradation from those who do not have any from of after-market metering... I have a hard time believing that is coincidence...

however new chemistry will only assist with the Arizona heat degradation issue, which they are right to address first.

I wasn't suggesting they only help Arizonians. I was trying to make the point that new chemistry only helps heat related degradation. I think of it as the Arizona Heat Issue because that's where the furor started on this forum, Arizona was the canary in the mine. I too am facing advanced degradation vs expectations set by Nissan. 19% last time I checked and just shy of 3 years on the road. However the new chemistry won't help with 8 degrees in the winter.

 

[TimLee]

I wasn't suggesting they only help Arizonians. I was trying to make the point that new chemistry only helps heat related degradation. I think of it as the Arizona Heat Issue because that's where the furor started on this forum, Arizona was the canary in the mine. I too am facing advanced degradation vs expectations set by Nissan. 19% last time I checked and just shy of 3 years on the road. However the new chemistry won't help with 8 degrees in the winter.

JP, I think it is possible that an improved electrolyte may improve overall coulombic efficiency and reduce several of the capacity degradation factors. Not just heat degradation.
We certainly don't have data to know, so we're guessing.
But the seminar by Professor Jeff Dahn (Dalhousie University) does hint that might be the case.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15796#p352669" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[mwalsh]

I hope, after all that's been said, they shell out the few pennies per cell extra for ceramic coating on those separators too!

 

[DaveEV]

If I want to replace the battery in my LEAF before it reaches theoretical EOL (maybe because I need 80%+ to do a daily commute), I can't. It's still my money, my car and my call, but Nissan won't sell one.

Yep, unfortunately your only remedy is to find a used pack from a totalled car, or to sell your car and buy a new one.

I've spoken to several Leaf owners I ran into while charging at dealerships. Pretty much none of them was aware of the battery issues and they all were sure if anything happens they are covered because there is "the warranty". They all were happy with their Leafs. Ignorance is a bliss. I suspect this sample represent the majority of Leaf owner base and Nissan is under no pressure to come forward with the actual battery replacement program at this point.

When did we first start seeing a lot of sales in Hotlanta? Appx two summers after that we will start seeing a lot of angry LEAF owners. Of course, most of those owners leased for only two years, so maybe not. Atlanta appears to be similar to most of Southern California in terms of climate related durability, so it will probably take 2+ years for most owners to start losing bars and noticing a noticeable amount of range loss.

I hope, after all that's been said, they shell out the few pennies per cell extra for ceramic coating on those separators too!

Ceramic coated separators doesn't necessarily improve calendar life or cycling durability of the battery, it just makes the separator more durable so that the battery is less likely to suffer from catastrophic failure in extreme high heat situations where a non-ceramic separator would be likely to shrink or curl which would allow a short circuit to develop. Properly designed, a separator will actually melt slightly closing the pores reducing ion flow between the anode/cathode before a cell is heated enough to get to the catastrophic failure point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separator_(electricity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

The magic is all in the electrolyte and anode/cathode materials when it comes to battery life. In a perfect world you wouldn't need a separator, it just adds cost and gives you another piece of the battery to fail over time.

 

[WetEV]

And by making the first capacity bar 15%, Nissan was able to effectively hide a good part of the degradation from those who do not have any from of after-market metering... I have a hard time believing that is coincidence...

Oh? Nissan might have followed other manufacturers (Tesla, Ford, Smart, Toyota, Fiat) lead and not provided any capacity bars. Or perhaps Honda's lead and make the car lease only. (This might not be fair to Tesla, I've heard that it is possible to read out battery capacity... But is not on the dashboard. Please correct me if any of these cars provide as much information on capacity as the Leaf does...)

If the capacity loss declines with time as per the capacity loss model in the Wiki, the time between losing the first two bars (12->10) and the second two bars (10->8) should be nearly equal. Adjusted for seasonality, of course. I'd rather see a percentage, and I'd rather that percentage can't be adjusted upwards easily... And that is my real problem with capacity bars, and even the after-market metering. Knowing that a dealer or someone else can reset the BMS and temporarily "restore" lost capacity bothers me a lot.

 

[DaveEV]

This might not be fair to Tesla, I've heard that it is possible to read out battery capacity... But is not on the dashboard. Please correct me if any of these cars provide as much information on capacity as the Leaf does...

Tesla does not show a GOM by default, it shows either "rated" (85 kWh = 265 miles) or "ideal" (85 kWh = 300 miles) on it's DTE indicator. If you charge to 100% and it shows less than 265 miles, you've got some capacity loss.

Tesla gives you the most accurate capacity gauge of all - ignoring any issues with measuring capacity and pack balance issues which can lead to differences in actual capacity and what capacity the car thinks it has. If anything, it appears that the Model S tends to show _more_ capacity loss than the pack may really have.

 

[EV4Taos]

Is it possible that even when the car is only exposed to 85-95 degree heat for a short period (2-3 weeks) that degradation is accelerated? I think that is why we see more degradation in mild southern California climate then we do in say the Northwest. Maybe it only takes a week of 90 degree weather to do damage. It is interesting that Steve Marsh in WA only saw 22% degradation @ 100,000 miles and he beats the living hell out of his battery.

I live in Taos where the climate only goes above 90 for 2-3 weeks. When I get a Leaf or an I-Miev I plan on running the AC during the day when the car is sitting in the shade during this period and maybe even run a swamp cooler under the car.

It seems like more damage is done during this 3 week period then the rest of year combined?

Thoughts?

 

[BrockWI]

So is it "just" the heat. So if the battery is warm or is it charging it while it it warm to start with? I understand some degradation will happen no matter what, but if the battery is hot, say's it 100F outside and it sat all day and warmed up to that. If you could get it in a shaded garage and charge it at 3am when it's 70F in the garage is that advantageous?

 

[Reddy]

Personally, I am driving less in the summer (prefer to bicycle my 8 mi RT anyway), parking inside the garage during the day to keep the car shaded, then moving it outside at night to maximize our desert cooling effect. I don't have any special equipment to measure battery temps, but last night the gauge went from 5 bars (afternoon with highs near 80 F) to 4 bars this morning (with car temps reading 46 F at 7am). Since I bicycled today, I expect the battery temps to remain in the 4 bar range all day. Had I driven, the car would have been exposed to a high solar flux and the inside cabin would like have exceeded 100 F for 6 hours. I don't know how much that warms the battery, but it is certainly more than sitting inside the garage at 50-70 F all day.

Also, remember that air temperature is not necessarily battery temperature. The battery is a large mass and the temperature lags the ambient by a significant number of hours. Search the forum and you will find others have published actual battery temps vs time. You'll need LeafSpy or some other device to measure actual battery temps. As for charging while warm, the battery warms up during charging, so this exaggerates the effect. Since I drive so little and have the ability to chose my charging nights, I have experienced this many times last summer. On charging nights, the battery temp remains at 5 or 6 bars while on non-charging nights 4 or 5 bars are more common.

If you're worried about heat, just do what I do, and then forget about it. Use the car as much as possible because the batteries will degrade whether used or not.