Battery Replacement Program Details

[dhanson865]

Pretty scary, especially if there isn't enough time for the Ahr capacity to adjust even when using an ODB reader. It took several weeks for my Leaf to "settle" after the P3227 update. :evil:

which is why I asked Chelsea to ask Nissan how a used car buyer can protect themselves from this. Unfortunately she didn't have the guts to ask the question that way and we got a meaningless Q&A that was only very loosely related to my original question.

I totally agree that there's not been a satisfactory answer on this (other than being told that it's not possible for a dealer to "fake" pack condition), nor many other questions and concerns related to the battery replacement/reconditioning/rental program and related issues of used cars, etc. That should not be taken to mean that I (and others) haven't had the "guts" to ask, nor that I haven't and won't keep asking.

It's possible you just didn't understand the question or just forgot what it really meant. It's possible at the Arizona meeting you were tired/distracted/disoriented for some reason. I don't know why, I just know the question you asked in the video didn't really put forth the concern I spoke of and so Andy didn't even have a chance to address that concern.

I guess we could go back and compare the thread from before that meeting to the actual words spoken on the video but I'm not looking to be that guy. I'm willing to concede that any number of innocent reasons could have made for that question to get lost in translation.

All I really know is that the question asked on the forum didn't get asked in the meeting.

 

[KJD]

Please state the question again and CC BBrockman.

 

[evchels]

which is why I asked Chelsea to ask Nissan how a used car buyer can protect themselves from this. Unfortunately she didn't have the guts to ask the question that way and we got a meaningless Q&A that was only very loosely related to my original question.

I totally agree that there's not been a satisfactory answer on this (other than being told that it's not possible for a dealer to "fake" pack condition), nor many other questions and concerns related to the battery replacement/reconditioning/rental program and related issues of used cars, etc. That should not be taken to mean that I (and others) haven't had the "guts" to ask, nor that I haven't and won't keep asking.

It's possible you just didn't understand the question or just forgot what it really meant. It's possible at the Arizona meeting you were tired/distracted/disoriented for some reason. I don't know why, I just know the question you asked in the video didn't really put forth the concern I spoke of and so Andy didn't even have a chance to address that concern.

I guess we could go back and compare the thread from before that meeting to the actual words spoken on the video but I'm not looking to be that guy. I'm willing to concede that any number of innocent reasons could have made for that question to get lost in translation.

All I really know is that the question asked on the forum didn't get asked in the meeting.

I'm really sorry; I didn't initially understand from your post and reference to the subsequent Q&A that you were referring only to that Jan. meeting/video vs. my willingness to ask in general...

It's true that I jumped in on the spur of the moment that night, and tried to paraphrase multiple questions and comments that it seemed to me hadn't been understood and/or really addressed by the panel- and yes, also considering the threads here leading up to that meeting and the information this community was hoping to get, etc. I truly apologize if I misunderstood or mischaracterized your question in the moment, but the intent was only to draw more information from the panel with that opportunity, not to soften or misrepresent any concerns.

Separately, I and the advisory board have continued to give feedback and ask questions in the year since that meeting, including those related to ensuring battery condition (original pack and in any rental/replacement program), used car resale value and used car buyers. I've not gotten any more substantive info than has been talked about on this forum. So to me, these remain open questions and significant outstanding issues- ones which I've not seen any other OEMs address well either, and which might be facilitated by regulation.

 

[dhanson865]

It's true that I jumped in on the spur of the moment that night, and tried to paraphrase multiple questions and comments that it seemed to me hadn't been understood and/or really addressed by the panel- and yes, also considering the threads here leading up to that meeting and the information this community was hoping to get, etc. I truly apologize if I misunderstood or mischaracterized your question in the moment, but the intent was only to draw more information from the panel with that opportunity, not to soften or misrepresent any concerns.

It happens, sorry if my take on it sounded overly harsh.

At the time, I think even in that video or a following video Nissan was still saying the battery bars couldn't be reset to 12. I sure don't blame you for this but someone at Nissan was either uninformed or in denial. We've seen numerous cases of this being done reported on this forum.

also back then bluetooth/android app combo wasn't able to dig into battery status as deeply. I'd still like to know an answer from Nissan (but would be relatively satisfied if the user community documentation can cover the issue).

In the old days a dirty dealer could roll back the odometer and a ton of laws have been written to make sure that it is illegal and spell out the consequences for doing so.

Now a tech can reset the BMS and make the car look like it has a healthier battery than it really has. Sure there are still tons of laws against it in a general sense but the average joe may not even know about the fraud until its too expensive to do anything about it.

 

[KJD]

Separately, I and the advisory board have continued to give feedback and ask questions in the year since that meeting, including those related to ensuring battery condition (original pack and in any rental/replacement program), used car resale value and used car buyers. I've not gotten any more substantive info than has been talked about on this forum. So to me, these remain open questions and significant outstanding issues- ones which I've not seen any other OEMs address well either, and which might be facilitated by regulation.

Thank you evchels for taking these questions to Nissan. We still await answers from Nissan.

As far as other OEMs go there is one that we know of that has a battery price and this company also has sold a new battery to a customer in David Noland. See page 3 for battery cost on Tesla.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089183_life-with-tesla-model-s-battery-upgrade-from-60-kwh-to-85-kwh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The cost breakdown looked like this: Price of the new battery was $44,564. The trade-in value of my old battery was $29,681--a number arrived at by discounting its new list price of $37,102 by a 20-percent "restocking" fee.

The list price of a Tesla 85kwh battery pack is 44,454. Public knowledge and no big deal.

Nissan could learn a thing or two from these guys.

 

[TimLee]

The list price of a Tesla 85kwh battery pack is 44,454. Public knowledge and no big deal.

Nissan could learn a thing or two from these guys.

About right. $522 per kWh.
At the Society of Environmental Journalists Conference in Chattanooga, TN; the only respondent to the question of battery price was the Volkswagen representative. He stated a rough $ amount of $500 per kWh.
About right for where the battery market currently is.
The few rumors on line of $200 per kWh for Tesla battery are just that. False Internet rumors.
Around $12,500 for a LEAF battery. Maybe as low as $10,000 for the direct variable cost of production.
MNL participants need to quit quoting erroneous on line postings of $4K or $5K prices for the LEAF battery.
May be a few salvagers selling used LEAF batteries for $5K.
But they are used.

And for the many of us LEAF purchasers that will never get anything from Nissan's belated battery capacity warranty, that means the LEAF we bought for ~$34K, will be near useless with around 70K miles and around 6 years of use, and at most will be worth $15K in the used vehicle market. Mostly for salvage value, or use in limited distance travel communities that previously depended on $15K "neighborhood limited range" electric vehicles.
Sad day for the Leading Environmental Affordable Family vehicle.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

just a few comments here. the reason we have heard nothing more about the program is because the program will not really resemble anything that has been announced up to this point.

a few things that should be obvious to all who have been following this is that Nissan knows it would be a mistake. so they are looking at other options. what options those are is really anyone's guess. They are really back to fact finding more than anything.

as far as a time frame on when we can hear something? well, to be honest with you; being part of the LAB has made it MORE difficult to predict simply because we have been given timetables for a lot of stuff that either was very delayed, (which is really quite normal thru out the corporate world in any industry) experienced a significant course correction due to forces originating from outside Nissan, or been cancelled all together.

In any advancing tech field which the LEAF really is, the product roadmap MUST be flexible. Ya, its a car but unlike other cars, it does not have 100 years of legacy baggage to fall back on. This is both an advantage and disadvantage.

Not spending millions on a dead end is key to having the funds and influence to continue to support a successful product. What is known is that the LEAF sells itself. What is not really understood is how best to support the LEAF in its weaker areas.

Up till now, there have been a smattering of decent solutions in various parts of the country. Car rentals, supported charging networks, free parking, HOV access, etc. This support needs to be reorganized and reallocated uniformly across the country.

Now after 3 + years we are starting to see battery modules being sold. We are seeing some DIY projects. it remains to be seen what comes of this if anything but keep in mind; DIY does not have to deal with a lot of corporate baggage

 

[GRA]

The list price of a Tesla 85kwh battery pack is 44,454. Public knowledge and no big deal.

Nissan could learn a thing or two from these guys.

About right. $522 per kWh.
At the Society of Environmental Journalists Conference in Chattanooga, TN; the only respondent to the question of battery price was the Volkswagen representative. He stated a rough $ amount of $500 per kWh.
About right for where the battery market currently is.
The few rumors on line of $200 per kWh for Tesla battery are just that. False Internet rumors.
Around $12,500 for a LEAF battery. Maybe as low as $10,000 for the direct variable cost of production.
MNL participants need to quit quoting erroneous on line postings of $4K or $5K prices for the LEAF battery.
May be a few salvagers selling used LEAF batteries for $5K.
But they are used.
<snip>

I'll just point out that you're conflating battery retail pricing with cost to the company. Typically, the manufacturing cost of a vehicle makes up only 50% or so of its MSRP, and I imagine battery packs fall into the same range. In the case of Tesla retail markup may well be more, given that they're shooting for a 25% profit margin. Mass market cars typically have a much lower profit margin. See e.g. http://msl1.mit.edu/classes/esd123/vyas.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[klapauzius]

just a few comments here. the reason we have heard nothing more about the program is because the program will not really resemble anything that has been announced up to this point.

a few things that should be obvious to all who have been following this is that Nissan knows it would be a mistake. so they are looking at other options. what options those are is really anyone's guess. They are really back to fact finding more than anything.

I assume this is regarding the battery rental program?
If so, this is good news!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

just a few comments here. the reason we have heard nothing more about the program is because the program will not really resemble anything that has been announced up to this point.

a few things that should be obvious to all who have been following this is that Nissan knows it would be a mistake. so they are looking at other options. what options those are is really anyone's guess. They are really back to fact finding more than anything.

I assume this is regarding the battery rental program?
If so, this is good news!

dont really have any details other than to say Nissan has heard us. they may not be the best conversationalists but they are good listeners and realize that the program as they presented would be a nightmare and are looking at other things.

 

[Stoaty]

dont really have any details other than to say Nissan has heard us. they may not be the best conversationalists but they are good listeners and realize that the program as they presented would be a nightmare and are looking at other things.

That in itself is good news. Hopefully they can figure out a better option.

 

[beachfitrob]

I've been looking but how do you get a case started with Nissan?

Mine is a 2011 with 8800 miles but it's lost 2 bars already. New to me, but I plan on packing the miles on so I'm betting in Housotn Texas I'll see a replacement.

In service time is only 2 years, 22 months so I've got over 3 years to lost two more bars, which I'm betting will happen.

As you can see, it's a very early Leaf with pretty low miles but it's been mostly in Texas and Florida, and Carfax says it was a rental for 5100 mile sin Florida.

Could be an interesting case study for Nissan?

I got the firmware update but got no bars back and the capactiy and SOH has gone down a little since I got it. Lost IIRC 2-3% of SOH but it could be temps...and 1-2 AH...will see if it goes back up with warmer weather I guess.

 

[smkettner]

No need to open a case with Nissan. They have all the information through the annual battery check. And you have a 60/60 capacity warranty.

 

[JPWhite]

The original announcement from Nissan indicated the battery replacement program aka steal your battery program would start in the first half of 2014. Similar to the battery price commitment, time is running out. They have 10 weeks to get the program going. I've not heard anything since the original announcement. Anybody got any updates or are we just left to watch the clock run out on this one as well?

 

[Stoaty]

The original announcement from Nissan indicated the battery replacement program aka steal your battery program would start in the first half of 2014. Similar to the battery price commitment, time is running out. They have 10 weeks to get the program going. I've not heard anything since the original announcement. Anybody got any updates or are we just left to watch the clock run out on this one as well?

I think they have decided... not to make any decisions.

 

[KJD]

Nissan will announce additional details of the battery replacement program later this year, including other global markets.

So where is that Lizard Battery ?

 

[TomT]

It is hiding under a rock! :lol:

Nissan will announce additional details of the battery replacement program later this year, including other global markets.

So where is that Lizard Battery ?

 

[JPWhite]

It is hiding under a rock! :lol:

Nissan will announce additional details of the battery replacement program later this year, including other global markets.

So where is that Lizard Battery ?

Maybe now the GenIII Tesla may take an additional year to come to market, the urgency to keep us all happy campers may have waned.

 

[Nubo]

The original announcement from Nissan indicated the battery replacement program aka steal your battery program would start in the first half of 2014. Similar to the battery price commitment, time is running out. They have 10 weeks to get the program going. I've not heard anything since the original announcement. Anybody got any updates or are we just left to watch the clock run out on this one as well?

The optimist in me is hoping that the final program details and release of the improved battery are intertwined, so that it will turn out to be the "better than new battery program".

 

[DaveEV]

The optimist in me is hoping that the final program details and release of the improved battery are intertwined, so that it will turn out to be the "better than new battery program".

That is my hope as well, but frankly, I don't have much optimism left. I don't recommend the LEAF any more unless they plan on leasing and don't expect to go much more than 50 miles/charge at the end of the lease.

The general public does not have the patience to dawdle along in the slow lane at 60-65 mph, install an aftermarket CAN bus monitor, wonder how much the summer heat or sitting around fully charged is speeding up capacity loss or hunt down charging stations while crossing their fingers that they are functional and not in use.