Battery Replacement Program Details

[JPWhite]

I don't recommend the LEAF any more unless they plan on leasing and don't expect to go much more than 50 miles/charge at the end of the lease.

I still recommend when asked, not quite as down as yourself. I recommend 55 mile round trip as tops to 'normal' people and 65 miles to the 'enthusiast/committed'. I'm happy to recommend either purchase or lease based on annual mileage. (Used to indicate 50-60 miles round trip for the 11/12 LEAF's).

The general public does not have the patience to dawdle along in the slow lane at 60-65 mph, install an aftermarket CAN bus monitor, wonder how much the summer heat or sitting around fully charged is speeding up capacity loss or hunt down charging stations while crossing their fingers that they are functional and not in use.

There are enough Nissan QC's in the Nashville area to overcome the 60-65 dawdling issue, I keep up with or pass traffic these days, amazing!! Reliability of QC's still an issue with one unit per site in most locations (except HQ where they have 3).

I agree that folks are not interested in getting a CAN Bus device to accurately predict their range. Why Nissan can't have a screen available under 'info' on the NAV System that includes some of the LEAF Spy Pro data escapes me. Why they don't allow the guess-o-meter to be user configurable to estimate either on a fixed miles/kwh or on say the last 400 miles, but instead they insist on estimating on very recent driving only, also escapes me.

 

[gbarry42]

Regarding the discussion about resetting the BMS (back in Jan., on page 81) and looking at unknown cars on the lot, can you read the GID values to see through the other misinformation? Seems that it couldn't really lie about that number. Everyone is fixated on A-hr values these days and no one mentions the GIDs. I couldn't really find an answer, and I tried quite a bit of searching.

Per the SYB & lease-it-back program, it's been rumored (right here on these pages) that they abandoned the idea and are looking for some other way.

 

[JPWhite]

Per the SYB & lease-it-back program, it's been rumored (right here on these pages) that they abandoned the idea and are looking for some other way.

Well if the rumors are right they better come up with something sometime this year or I'll be forced to trade or swap with my wife's Altima. My commute is about to increase again and an 80% QC in the winter won't get me home without a second QC on the way, which is totally too much hassle.

It'd be nice if they offered both a battery lease or outright purchase. But of course that would mean revealing a price. Hmmm what a conundrum.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

FWIW, I spoke with a relatively high level manager at Nissan a couple of weeks back.

He didn't know nor believe that Nissan had pre-announced a battery lease program. He thought the idea was brain-dead and would not happen. I've been meaning to forward him information from this thread.

Clearly he's misinformed about BBrockman's posts here, but it does imply to me that there is no battery lease program coming. He should have known in his position if there was.

He did say that the hot battery is real and coming at the end of April. Will be a change during production with no big announcement. He claimed the change is only to the electrolyte and does not involve a ceramic coating. He said this battery will be the standard battery in the LEAF, i.e. it won't be regional.

 

[cwerdna]

FWIW, I spoke with a relatively high level manager at Nissan a couple of weeks back.
...

Was this person an employee of Nissan corporate or a dealer/dealership group (aka not a Nissan employee)?

 

[cwerdna]

The general public does not have the patience to dawdle along in the slow lane at 60-65 mph, install an aftermarket CAN bus monitor, wonder how much the summer heat or sitting around fully charged is speeding up capacity loss or hunt down charging stations while crossing their fingers that they are functional and not in use.

There are enough Nissan QC's in the Nashville area to overcome the 60-65 dawdling issue, I keep up with or pass traffic these days, amazing!! Reliability of QC's still an issue with one unit per site in most locations (except HQ where they have 3).

I agree that folks are not interested in getting a CAN Bus device to accurately predict their range. Why Nissan can't have a screen available under 'info' on the NAV System that includes some of the LEAF Spy Pro data escapes me. Why they don't allow the guess-o-meter to be user configurable to estimate either on a fixed miles/kwh or on say the last 400 miles, but instead they insist on estimating on very recent driving only, also escapes me.

I have to tend to agree w/drees. And, most of us don't live in the Nashville area. The CHAdeMO infrastructure in the SF Bay Area is not great. Too many are unreliable $5/session Blink DC FCs. Ick! And, the etiquette of DC FC users at Nissan dealers (at least the one I go to) is not very good.

And, even if there were enough DC FCs, I doubt much of the general public is willing to add so much extra time, risk and "adventure" to their drives to want to have need to hunt for a working DC FC w/o a line or minimal line and then wait to charge.

Yep, agreed that GOM should be configurable or give 3 values, like that of the Spark EV. Or, it should give a bunch of mileage guesses until these events: LBW, VLBW, and turtle, based upon several miles/kWh values like WattsLeft does: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=309590#p309590" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[DaveEV]

I don't recommend the LEAF any more unless they plan on leasing and don't expect to go much more than 50 miles/charge at the end of the lease.

I still recommend when asked, not quite as down as yourself. I recommend 55 mile round trip as tops to 'normal' people and 65 miles to the 'enthusiast/committed'. I'm happy to recommend either purchase or lease based on annual mileage. (Used to indicate 50-60 miles round trip for the 11/12 LEAF's).

Those recommendations work for today after 3 years, but what happens in another 3 years when capacity is down another 20%? Or are we supposed to throw away these cars after 6 years?

At year 1, 3 and 6 years range at 100/80% with mostly 65 mph (indicated) freeway to LBW:
65 mi / 50 mi
55 mi / 40 mi
45 mi / 32 mi

Yes, there's still about 12 miles left between LBW->turtle, but how often do you want to get close to calling the tow truck? Realistically you might use about 6 of those miles if you're careful.

There are enough Nissan QC's in the Nashville area to overcome the 60-65 dawdling issue, I keep up with or pass traffic these days, amazing!! Reliability of QC's still an issue with one unit per site in most locations (except HQ where they have 3).

Yes, QCs coverage is getting better, but let's say you either have the option of driving at 60 mph or driving at 70-75 mph and stopping for 15 minutes to top-up to make it. Let's make this hypothetical trip 70 miles, so driving time is 1:10 at 60 mph and 0:56 at 75 mph. You end up at your destination at basically the same time, but now you've spent an extra $5 on the trip since most charging stations charge about $5/session.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

so one of the issues is the perception that we "should" be afraid to use a portion of the range the LEAF has. sounds like one of the needs here is providing more pertinent information to the driver. some people think my range is due to my granny driving style. i say its simply knowing your car and what it can do. (LEAF Spy helps a LOT with that)

with the way this is going i only hope that Nissan does not put everything into a degradation tolerant battery without adding capacity. with a new LEAF, I am anxious to hit the heat of Summer to see what degradation we are going to see. it is already apparent that this pack seems to like the heat more than the previous one but even that is hard to say since I had no monitoring options when the 2011 pack was new

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/04/spring-break-and-my-battery-is-more.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[tcherniaev]

What amazes me is that Nissan continues to pretend that battery replacement problem is way down the road because there is a warranty in place. They are ignoring two basic facts: some people have already passed all of the warranty limits (60k miles, even 100k miles), and some have passed the point where range is too short for commute. There needs to be an option for a new battery, that is all there is to it.

Living in Utah, I barely made it through the winter with my LEAF down one bar. I am certain that next winter my range loss will make my LEAF unusable for my daily driving. And don't blame me for poor planning. I knew that battery (and the range) will decline as time goes on, but I was told by SEVERAL salesmen that LEAF can go 100 miles on a charge. This winter with heat on I consistently had range of around 45-50 miles to turtle. With heat off I could make it to perhaps 55 miles. Slowing down to 60 mph on the freeway I could maybe get 60-65 miles of range.

Thankfully, I leased my car. Unfortunately, I agreed to 39 month lease that does not expire until next spring. So come December I will be parking my LEAF and driving my E-class Mercedes for the rest of the winter. Because of the hustle factor, I will probably just leave LEAF parked to avoid hustle of switching between two cars all the time. I don't mind switching cars for long drives, but not in my day-to-day driving.

If the lease was made available before this fall, and I was somehow able to participate in that program without incurring a major cost, I would gladly pay $100 per month for battery lease for last 6 months before turning the car over to Nissan. But that is not going to happen, is it?

 

[JPWhite]

If the lease was made available before this fall, and I was somehow able to participate in that program without incurring a major cost, I would gladly pay $100 per month for battery lease for last 6 months before turning the car over to Nissan. But that is not going to happen, is it?

I hear ya, but Nissan were woolly on exit terms. What sort of commitment would you have to make at battery replacement time? It would seem a problem to Nissan if you got a new battery then stopped paying 6 months later as you hand the car back to them. Asking Nissan to sink thousands into the car and only receive $600 in monthly payments isn't equitable for them. Same issue if the car is totaled, insurance won't payout for battery lease early termination fees, so who would?

If Nissan don't introduce a replacement program soon, that does open the door for 3rd parties to replace packs with relatively new packs they have reclaimed from scrap yards. Don't see that happening except in isolated areas anytime soon. It would be nice if a franchise outfit like Batteries Plus could offer replacement in partnership with a national maintenance outfit. Don't see that happening either.

Here's hoping Li-ion battery prices drop like a stone and Nissan come up with a replacement part and price.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If the lease was made available before this fall, and I was somehow able to participate in that program without incurring a major cost, I would gladly pay $100 per month for battery lease for last 6 months before turning the car over to Nissan. But that is not going to happen, is it?

I hear ya, but Nissan were woolly on exit terms. What sort of commitment would you have to make at battery replacement time? It would seem a problem to Nissan if you got a new battery then stopped paying 6 months later as you hand the car back to them. Asking Nissan to sink thousands into the car and only receive $600 in monthly payments isn't equitable for them. Same issue if the car is totaled, insurance won't payout for battery lease early termination fees, so who would?

If Nissan don't introduce a replacement program soon, that does open the door for 3rd parties to replace packs with relatively new packs they have reclaimed from scrap yards. Don't see that happening except in isolated areas anytime soon. It would be nice if a franchise outfit like Batteries Plus could offer replacement in partnership with a national maintenance outfit. Don't see that happening either.

Here's hoping Li-ion battery prices drop like a stone and Nissan come up with a replacement part and price.

this is a lot of speculation here. We dont know what insurance companies will pay out and have to assume since many have "replacement value" options that anything that increases the value of the car would be a consideration in the payment.

also, Nissan said NOTHING about a termination clause. the whole announcement was very open ended. it was basically a TV commercial....nothing more. an announcement with the barest of facts. minimal "fine print" that in itself was very much noncommittal

as far as the "delay" although they are not technically late with their very nonspecific timeline, I see the same issues as before with constrained supplies. we still dont have LEAFs piling up at the dealerships so that would imply that all their battery resources are being allocated to new cars.

this seems strange to me now that we are going into year 2 of the TN plant and the ramp up should be well resolved by now but who knows? maybe they are building a supply up for the expected initial demand once the program is announced?

 

[thankyouOB]

in 3 weeks i will have owned my LEAF for three years. It has been fun and worked well.

many folks are in the 3-year playbook too, and we want to know about replacement batteries. is it really possible that at this late stage Nissan still does not offer batteries for sale?
isn't it time for them to fill in the details on the Steal Your Battery program, which was announced a year ago?

how about it Nissan?
what does the panel hear?
what does brockman hear?

 

[TimLee]

is it really possible that at this late stage Nissan still does not offer batteries for sale?

Truth is stranger than fiction.
Like being trapped in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
Buy an amazing car from a major OEM and three years later you still can't buy a replacement for an essential component that is defective :!:

 

[cgaydos]

The original announcement from Nissan indicated the battery replacement program aka steal your battery program would start in the first half of 2014. Similar to the battery price commitment, time is running out. They have 10 weeks to get the program going. I've not heard anything since the original announcement. Anybody got any updates or are we just left to watch the clock run out on this one as well?

They already have missed their promised date, per the original announcement:

Nissan will announce additional details of the battery replacement program later this year, including other global markets.

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-announces-battery-replacement-program-for-leaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

is it really possible that at this late stage Nissan still does not offer batteries for sale?

Truth is stranger than fiction.
Like being trapped in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
Buy an amazing car from a major OEM and three years later you still can't buy a replacement for an essential component that is defective :!:

As soon as a LEAF owner who is beyond the capacity warranty needs a new battery, and Nissan decides not to offer them a resolution with a NDA, the sales price will be announced.

The fact that this has not happened yet, with over a hundred thousand LEAFs on the roads, is very strong evidence, IMO, that the battery is in no sense defective.

 

[TimLee]

They already have missed their promised date, per the original announcement:

Nissan will announce additional details of the battery replacement program later this year...

They are past due with the the details.
They said program in place by mid year 2014. They have about a month and half left on that comittment.

 

[TimLee]

is it really possible that at this late stage Nissan still does not offer batteries for sale?

Truth is stranger than fiction.
Like being trapped in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
Buy an amazing car from a major OEM and three years later you still can't buy a replacement for an essential component that is defective :!:

As soon as a LEAF owner who is beyond the capacity warranty needs a new battery, and Nissan decides not to offer them a resolution with a NDA, the sales price will be announced.

The fact that this has not happened yet, with over a hundred thousand LEAFs on the roads, is very strong evidence, IMO, that the battery is in no sense defective.

The defect is relative to Nissan statements when marketing the vehicle about expected capacity degradation.
They were clear they initially offered no capacity warranty.
But several people are past the capacity warranty that Nissan offered to settle the class action law suit and want a replacement battery and no response yet.

 

[edatoakrun]

="TimLee"
...The defect is relative to Nissan statements when marketing the vehicle about expected capacity degradation...

AFAIK, the only data we have is the small amount leaked for the LEAFs in the Arizona-torture-test.

And whether that show a defect is a matter of opinion.

As I posted on that thread:

...It also looks to me like the L2 cars are probably headed for 70% battery capacity (EOL) at ~60k miles, and the DC LEAFs at ~50k miles, rather than at ~100k "normal" miles, as statements by Nissan indicated.

But of course, these LEAFs may have also been subjected to most (and in the case of the two DC LEAFs, all?) factors known to accelerate capacity loss.

We do not know how much longer (or shorter) in time/miles/charge cycles the batteries in other hot climate LEAFs with more typical driving patterns will last, nor how much longer cool climate LEAF batteries will last, since we do not have any accurate test data for these LEAFs, only the dash bars and LBC data intercepts.

All the anecdotal evidence today indicates, IMO, that we can now expect much longer mileage, 80k to 100k to 80% remaining capacity, and perhaps well past 100k miles to ~70% EOL) for cool climate LEAFs.

So we don't know if LEAF batteries will meet (or fall short or exceed) Nissan’s battery life projections in “normal” use, though It doesn’t look to me like the results are likely be way off.

I won’t speculate why Nissan did not emphasize the large factor the variable of battery temperature would have on capacity life, which has led to the near-hysteria, including the repeated cries of a “bloodbath”, on this forum.

I will restate that, IMO, Nissan’s present policies RE LEAF buybacks and the battery capacity warrantee, may indicate that Nissan is more concerned with concealing the actual rate of LEAF battery capacity loss in all climates and due to other use variables, rather than in quantifying the effects of the various factors...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14271&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

="TimLee"

...But several people are past the capacity warranty that Nissan offered to settle the class action law suit and want a replacement battery and no response yet.

Who?

If I were in their situation, I would probably sue Nissan, as it likely is violating state and/or federal laws, in refusing to sell a replacement part.

 

[mwalsh]

The fact that this has not happened yet, with over a hundred thousand LEAFs on the roads, is very strong evidence, IMO, that the battery is in no sense defective.

All that suggests to me is that there are few outliers (if any at all), who have both exceeded the warranty mileage and live in a less than moderate climate.

 

[JPWhite]

Who?

If I were in their situation, I would probably sue Nissan, as it likely is violating state and/or federal laws, in refusing to sell a replacement part.

If I want to replace the battery in my flashlight before it runs down, I can. I don't have to wait till it 'fails', its my money, my flashlight and my call.

If I want to replace the battery in my LEAF before it reaches theoretical EOL (maybe because I need 80%+ to do a daily commute), I can't. It's still my money, my car and my call, but Nissan won't sell one.

So why aren't people suing for failure to sell a spare part for a car? I've heard its law that they must, but if that is so where are the lawsuits? Maybe it doesn't violate state/federal laws after all.