Official Southern California Edison thread

[xtremeflyer]

So interesting that they have people still spouting that you won't get your credits for net generation.

Anyway, there is a very simple, cheap solution to all of this nonsense with the second meter and what not. Just make the Super-OffPeak time period not count towards your allocation. Done, Easy. No second meters, no cost of installation, no second billing, nada.

Is there potential that someone could abuse it and do all their laundry between midnight and 6am and run all their lights and have the stereo blasting every night? Sure, but my guess is that people that are buying EVs probably aren't the same type of people that would run electricity in the middle of the night just to "take advantage" of something like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but the same could be said for those that get the medical waivers to not have allocation either.

 

[smkettner]

Anyone have a link to see a dual meter main panel?
Something with actual dimentions would be great.
Google did not find an actual product.

 

[Boomer23]

I know, I'm becoming convinced that NOBODY really knows the truth about this. I think we need the Oracle from The Matrix. I do know that you can call SCE fifteen times a day and get fifteen different answers, depending on which office you call.

AB920 - http://www.sce.com/customergeneration/nem-ab920.htm

Good link, mwalsh.

I still have questions, such as:

Will the rate they pay us be based on higher rates for the kWh produced on-peak compared to lower rates for the kWh used off-peak? Or at the end of the net metering year, do they sum the kWh produced versus the kWh used, and if they zero out, there is no payment? Though some have posted their monthly bills showing larger negative costs during the on-peak solar production period, we haven't reached the end of anyone's net metering year, so we don't know how SCE will settle up.

So let's say my total solar production minus my total usage equals zero at the end of the net metering year, will I get a cash payment because of the on-peak production?

 

[mwalsh]

Will the rate they pay us be based on higher rates for the kWh produced on-peak compared to lower rates for the kWh used off-peak?

I thought I heard that it was going to be the wholesale rate - something like $0.08kWh. Still, better than butkus, no?

 

[smkettner]

I don't think you will see 8 cents. I figure 12 is minimum.

 

[wsbca]

Will the rate they pay us be based on higher rates for the kWh produced on-peak compared to lower rates for the kWh used off-peak?

No, AB920 only pays if you generate more raw net (actual) kWh than you use. And if SDG&E's application to the utilities commission is any indication, the rate for AB920 payback is likely to end up being pretty low (lower than normal residential tier 1 retail, maybe only .06/kWh).

If you can use your solar to generate a virtual credit at a high tier rate to offset your charging at a lower tier rate, you might be able to effectively zero your bill while using more raw kWh than you generate, but you aren't going to get any cash back from AB920 in that scenario.

I'm not sure how SCE is handling it but if you're on the EV project in SDG&E territory, you can't use your solar surplus to directly offset your L2 car charging, since they will be on different accounts. We will (already do) have a solar surplus, but the only way we can make use of it is to request the surplus money on the house account under AB920 and then use that money to pay the car charging bill. Which is going to suck if we get stuck on the low-spread super off peak experimental rate (.14/kWh) and only get paid .06 for our surplus. We would be better off just staying on the DR schedule with net metering, but you can't do that and get the EV project perks. If we are faced with that discrepancy, then our "behavior" in the EV project will probably be to do as much charging as possible at L1, or at public charging stations, until such time as we can revert to a non-abusive tariff and make proper use of our surplus through the EVSE.

 

[wsbca]

Some interesting AB920 commentary in this blog:

http://runonsun.com/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/solecon/ab920/

 

[wsbca]

I don't think you will see 8 cents. I figure 12 is minimum.

Here's a link to a powerpoint summary of SDG&E's proposal in which they are seeking
to pay a whopping 5.53 cents per kWh:

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/645BBB64-B26D-4ECF-9A63-527E04E59E72/0/SDGE920presentation.ppt

 

[Boomer23]

Sounds like our best use of our excess power production is definitely to drive our EVs for free rather than to count on getting equitable paybacks from our utilities. That was my guess already, so I'm glad we're on track for that strategy.

 

[tbleakne]

AB920 - http://www.sce.com/customergeneration/nem-ab920.htm

The FAQ at this link promises that the decision on how much you will now be paid under ab920 for net metering surplus at the end of your 12-month billing cycle will be made by Dec 31 of this year. The answer will be posted by SCE.

It also mentions a form (link below) you may or may not wish to till out with some options. It sounds like they want to offer you the option of "opting out", but why you might want to do that is not clear to me. It is complicated because the ab920 law takes full effect beginning of 2011, but the law also says those of you who are currently under net metering in 2010 must be offered compensation for surplus you have now.

http://www.sce.com/NR/rdonlyres/D05DFD54-877E-4329-B3BC-A62FC6DA94A9/0/1001_AB920_CustomerLetterForm.pdf

 

[tbleakne]

Anyone have a link to see a dual meter main panel?
Something with actual dimentions would be great.
Google did not find an actual product.

I too failed to find a link. There is a dual-meter panel for a duplex in my neighborhood. It has the two meter sockets stacked vertically, so it is no wider than a standard panel, but it is quite high, perhaps 40-48" tall. If folks are really interested, I could go by there and take a picture.

I have been told that since these panels are for commercial purposes and are produced in much smaller quantities than standard residential panels, they are quite expensive, perhaps over $1000 each before installation. I would think that since these panels are designed for apartments, they would be rated at no more than 100-125 amps for each meter. This would not work if your present house panel has 200 amp service.

Even if you have the space for a separate panel for the second meter, an Edison reps' description of how it would be wired into your primary below-ground utility feed sounded a little "iffy" to me.

As I have posted previously, I expect there will be a "smart-meter" solution coming soon, perhaps some time in 2011. An approved meter in the charging port will communicate with your Edison main meter wirelessly, and Edison will subtract the car's charging to form a "virtual" second meter.

 

[tbleakne]

>>>>>

To answer tbleakne's question, yes my preference for a two meter solution was based on concerns that the TOU-D-TEV single mater rate is tiered, while the TOU-EV-1 rate is not. I'm afraid that my charging usage would go into the second or higher tiers for some of the charging time period, taking me from 10 cents to 16 cents per kWh or higher.

I am sorry to hear the new second-meter complications mean you might be falling back into TOU-D-TEV land with the rest of us.

Thanks once again for enlightening me. Since TOU-EV-1 is not tiered, it has no Baseline budget, so all your Baseline budget is then available for your house. I see the same values you quote above, that the EV-1 off-peak charging rate is only a little higher than the super-off-peak TOU for Level 1, ($.06 deliv + $.06 URG) vs ($.06 deliv + $.04 URG), but it is lower than Level 2 ($.12 deliv + $.04 URG).

At least TOU-D-TEV tariff has only two tiers, which they call Level 1 and Level 2. Level II kicks-in at 130% of Baseline, so it is equivalent to Tier-3 for normal non-TOU billing. You don't have to worry about a Tier-4 or higher.

Once again I am changing my opinion about the Baseline budget calculation for TEV. I see going into Level 2 is bad for any TOU, not just on-peak, because the delivery service jumps up (to $.17 for off-peak). Even super-off-peak jumps $.06.

Previously I said I thought you could go into Level 2 separately for each TOU. I now believe you will go into Level 2 simultaneously for off-peak and super-off-peak. As others have said, we are not sure exactly what happens with respect to Baseline if your on-peak is negative due to solar. The actual net metering bill that was posted showed only Level 1. It might be that just the net total kwh, irrespective of TOU and TOU rates, is used in the determination of Level 1 or Level 2. In this view, the Baseline budget is proportionately allocated among the positive TOUs (off-peak and super-off-peak) such that all TOUs go into Level 2 at the same time. If this is true, it would imply that you can't use the high payback (in $) of peak-time solar generation to give you extra protection from Level 2.

 

[Boomer23]

>>>>>

To answer tbleakne's question, yes my preference for a two meter solution was based on concerns that the TOU-D-TEV single mater rate is tiered, while the TOU-EV-1 rate is not. I'm afraid that my charging usage would go into the second or higher tiers for some of the charging time period, taking me from 10 cents to 16 cents per kWh or higher.

I am sorry to hear the new second-meter complications mean you might be falling back into TOU-D-TEV land with the rest of us.

Thanks Tom. At the Saturday morning So Cal meet-up, I'll bring the sheet that the SCE rep gave me at the Anaheim drive event that summarizes the TOU-D-TEV and TOU-EV-1 rates. In fact, I'll make some photocopies. Your calculations are very close to what the sheet quotes, though, so kudos to you.

 

[ColinSummers]

I finally have my Volt charging in my garage. My story of charger and meter installation is obviously the same for a Volt and a Leaf:
Meter Muddle
Meter Muddle Clarity Hoped For
Meter Completed

Sorry it's such a long story. I expect it to get simpler and simpler.

 

[Boomer23]

I got an email tonight from SCE with a free admission ticket to the LA Auto Show.

I assume that I received this because they have me listed as a future plug-in car owner.

Watch your email, check your spam filter. The tickets are barcoded and identified with access code numbers so I can't share the link with you.

 

[Boomer23]

I finally have my Volt charging in my garage. My story of charger and meter installation is obviously the same for a Volt and a Leaf:
Meter Muddle
Meter Muddle Clarity Hoped For
Meter Completed

Sorry it's such a long story. I expect it to get simpler and simpler.

THANKS Colin. What an amazing story. Wow, you really have SCE's attention. I'm impressed with that. I've had a hard time getting a planner to even call me.

 

[garygid]

Colin,
So, in summary, please:
1. What did you start with, and
2. What did you end up with?

 

[Boomer23]

I think I've decided to upgrade my main panel rather than rely on AV's solution of trying to add a load center (sub-panel) in an effort to deal with my existing fully packed main panel.

AV isn't sure and I'm doubtful that their solution will pass inspection based on total household load. I've also had two electricians tell me that the overcrowded wiring condition of my current 100 A main panel (done by a former owner of the house) wouldn't pass inspection if it was inspected today. I'd like to add a TED to monitor my solar PV production and my household and EV charging usages, and there wouldn't be room for the TED in the current main panel due to physical crowding of the wires. And an upgraded panel would give me capacity for future expansion.

I'll probably have my electrician run the conduit and wire (60 to 70 feet) from the new panel to my garage for the EVSE and terminate it at a 240 V receptacle, possibly ready for a Leviton or SPX EVSE. I'll ask the electrician to quote on a two-meter panel. None of us can find one from a Google search, so I'll leave it to a professional to find one. I'll use that quote to decide on whether I'll try to use SCE's two-meter TOU EV charging rate.

 

[smkettner]

I don't think you will see 8 cents. I figure 12 is minimum.

Here's a link to a powerpoint summary of SDG&E's proposal in which they are seeking
to pay a whopping 5.53 cents per kWh:

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/645BBB64-B26D-4ECF-9A63-527E04E59E72/0/SDGE920presentation.ppt

I make the assumption we are talking about SCE rates.... not SDGE

 

[wsbca]

I don't think you will see 8 cents. I figure 12 is minimum.

Here's a link to a powerpoint summary of SDG&E's proposal in which they are seeking
to pay a whopping 5.53 cents per kWh:

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/645BBB64-B26D-4ECF-9A63-527E04E59E72/0/SDGE920presentation.ppt

I make the assumption we are talking about SCE rates.... not SDGE

Indeed - but isn't the CPUC, a state-wide commission, likely to assert a structure that is consistent across the various utilities, for this state-wide law? If so, my point is at least one of the major players thinks they have a shot at convincing the CPUC to allow (all of?) them to buy our power for dirt cheap. I will be happy if the actual rate ends up at 12 cents for everyone (and confused if it's 12 cents for some and 6 cents for others just based on the individual proposals/interpretations of each utility) - most indications I've seen have a pessimistic view of the outcome - for example, this page:

http://guntherportfolio.com/2009/10/ab-920-free-the-roofs-for-solar/,

eg:

AB 920 establishes the general criteria for the CPUC (California Public Utilities Commission) to value the net surplus electricity compensation (rate paid by utilities) including:

* The value of the electricity itself.
* The value of the renewable attributes of the electricity.

However, the conservative expectation is the CPUC will set a low wholesale rate ignoring the renewable benefits and time of generation value of the solar electricity