Official smart fortwo electric drive thread

[AndyH]

More 'toys' - battery info this time.

It appears the Smart battery is made by a joint venture between Daimler and Evonik Industries called Deutsche ACCUmotive. It also appears the cells are supplied by a joint venture between Daimler and Evonik called li-Tec.

This 'powerpoint' looks like a presentation from a July 2009 conference. It's got charge/discharge charts, cycle life info, and a photomicrograph (or SEM image) of the ceramic separator. The battery appears to use aLiNiMnCoO2 cathode.

http://www.energiemetropole-leipzig...Tec_Energie_Metropole Leipzig_Battery_Tim.pdf


Deutche ACCUmotive:
http://accumotivwork.heitech.net/

li-Tec
http://www.li-tec.de/en/company.html

Motor info:
Also used in Fiat 500e and a Citroen diesel hybrid. Weighs 32 kg; capable of 80 kW and 200 nm torque.
http://www.bosch-presse.de/presseforum/details.htm?txtID=6226&tk_id=108

 

[AndyH]

Still hoping that these will show up in the Midwest next month but rumors of a delay until 2014 are still floating around ... the autotrader site isn't showing any 'in stock' less than about 600 miles from me yet so we'll see (as folks know the site shows in bound cars already pre-sold as well as inventory).

Smart updated their website today and it looks like they've confirmed the rumors - now they say the 'rest of the country' roll-out will be in 'early' 2014.

 

[AndyH]

Here are some battery heating/cooling details for US spec cars. This info is from the official service docs on the Smart Tech Info website. Document GF54.10-P-0008ED; Thermal management, function; updated 30.7.13

The battery, battery charger, motor, and motor controller are liquid cooled using a standard radiator/pump system. The system has valves so that the standard glycol/water mixture can be diverted to the battery only, or to the electronics only, or to any combination.

The battery box has a 'sub loop' with an isolating valve, a pair of pumps, and a high-voltage PTC heater. The battery can be heated independently of the rest of the system.

There is an additional battery cooling option, V03, which includes an air conditioning system to liquid heat exchanger. This heat exchanger is located in the battery box 'sub loop'. I do know know where V03 is an available option.

The cooling pump is always moving fluid through the motor and controller when the car is in drive mode. The radiator fan is activated when coolant temperature reaches and exceeds 63°C (145°F).

The coolant is also routed to the battery when the battery coolant reaches 40°C (104°F), or when there is a difference of more than 20°C between battery box sensors (to keep pack temperature relatively even).

Coolant is routed separately to the battery charger and motor controller during charging.

The V03 battery cooling option activates when the battery average temperature exceeds 45°C (113°F). The battery heating/cooling loop is isolated from the main motor/drive cooling loop. The air conditioning system is activated and the fluid circulating through the battery box 'sub loop' is cooled. The document doesn't say to what temperature the battery is cooled.

When the battery is cold, the PTC heater in the battery 'sub loop' is activated. The document doesn't say what low temperature triggers additional heat, or when heat is turned off.

 

[redLEAF]

the little smart Ed continues to do pretty well even with limited availability ... has outsold the FFE two months straight now (of course in all fairness, one probably doesn't cross shop the two; its like comparing a Tesla S with our LEAF, not gonna happen) ...

sold 137 last month ...

http://insideevs.com/september-2013-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/

they also plan to offer another color choice and a few more options ... I guess having to wait a bit longer for them to show up in the Midwest might be worth it ...

http://www.smartusa.com/models/electric-drive/overview.aspx

 

[redLEAF]

No specific mention of whether the smart Ed is a big loss leader as well but ...

"smart loses $6,100 on every car it sells ..."

http://ecomento.com/2013/10/14/smart-loses-6100-every-car-sells-leaving-daimler-5bn-bill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Anonymous]

http://ecomento.com/2013/10/14/smart-loses-6100-every-car-sells-leaving-daimler-5bn-bill/

"Mercedes-Benz was under the impression that bringing Smart onboard would create sales with an entry-level model that was cheap"

It worked in my case. I went in to Mercedes to buy a Smart Electric and came away purchasing a GLK350 w/ AMG package (MSRP $60K). And yes, I am waiting for my Smart to be delivered (soon). So MB made a lot of money from me, and all because their Smart car brought me into the dealer.

Up to this point, I had never considered purchasing a foreign made automobile.

 

[cwerdna]

No specific mention of whether the smart Ed is a big loss leader as well but ...

"smart loses $6,100 on every car it sells ..."

http://ecomento.com/2013/10/14/smart-loses-6100-every-car-sells-leaving-daimler-5bn-bill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Graph at http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/the-europeans-show-ford-gm-how-losing-money-is-really-done/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; on this.

And to see how poorly ICE Smarts have sold in the US, see http://priuschat.com/threads/why-toyota-doesnt-make-a-commuter-hybrid-for-two.121407/#post-1729618" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/10/usa-auto-sales-rankings-by-model-september-2013-ytd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. On average, over 1000 Camrys in the US were sold per day last month. Smart only managed to sell 625 ForTwos in the US for that ENTIRE month.

And, for those who don't know, Smart losing billions for Mercedes isn't new news. See http://priuschat.com/threads/why-toyota-doesnt-make-a-commuter-hybrid-for-two.121407/#post-1729628" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/13/how-smart-is-this-dcx-lost-3-9-billion-on-smart-over-four-year/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, for instance.

 

[RonDawg]

I went in to Mercedes to buy a Smart Electric and came away purchasing a GLK350 w/ AMG package (MSRP $60K).

Good thing for your wallet that Aston Martin never sold the Cygnet (rebadged Scion iQ) over here...

 

[Anonymous]

On average, over 1000 Camrys in the US were sold per day last month. Smart only managed to sell 625 ForTwos in the US for that ENTIRE month

:lol: Wow, I'm impressed, articles from 2006 data that presumes that the front loaded costs to build a state of the art factory are not ammortized over 10 years, and low number of US sales where the top seller is a low tech pickup with pathetic efficiency is no real comparison. Work harder.

Well, if I wanted to drive a Camry, I would have bought one. Brutal and ugly. Drove one on rental, was pathetic. Some people are willing to settle for average.

Besides, while friends of mine drive F150's with no passengers for their daily driver, that does not make it "right".

If you have not driven a Smart Electric, especially one tricked out with rediculous red boy racer interior like the one I ordered, you are missing out.

 

[cwerdna]

On average, over 1000 Camrys in the US were sold per day last month. Smart only managed to sell 625 ForTwos in the US for that ENTIRE month

:lol: Wow, I'm impressed, articles from 2006 data that presumes that the front loaded costs to build a state of the art factory are not ammortized over 10 years, and low number of US sales where the top seller is a low tech pickup with pathetic efficiency is no real comparison. Work harder.

Well, if I wanted to drive a Camry, I would have bought one. Brutal and ugly. Drove one on rental, was pathetic. Some people are willing to settle for average.

Seriously? http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/the-europeans-show-ford-gm-how-losing-money-is-really-done/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; shows them looking at Smart from 97 thru 2006. If you have financial stats to show that Smart has actually broken even or actually been net profitable over its entire life, please share.

Every single review of the US ICE Smart ForTwo that I've ever seen has panned it. The ICE Smart ForTwo in Consumer Reports scores WAY too low to recommend, and is near the bottom of http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/12/top-cars-in-our-tests/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Notice where the Camry Hybrid and XLE V6 are? The non-hybrid 4-banger got 88/100, which well above what's needed to be recommended (all 3 that they tested were recommended). And, all 3 powertrain choices have better than average to much better than average reliability, to boot.

FWIW, the's insufficient reliability data for most years of the ForTwo but 1 year looks pretty bad and another is so-so.

 

[redLEAF]

No specific mention of whether the smart Ed is a big loss leader as well but ...

"smart loses $6,100 on every car it sells ..."

http://ecomento.com/2013/10/14/smart-loses-6100-every-car-sells-leaving-daimler-5bn-bill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course on the other hand ... when Penske handled U.S. sales they actually MADE money, almost $2,200 per car

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/18/autos/smart-car-penske-mercedes.fortune/


Will do some more digging on sales/profits since the '08 intro (which BTW we still own one if you check this thread much -- waiting for a smart Ed) ... comparing a smart to a Camry is apples to oranges but to pick on Toyota the smart could be compared more readily to their Scion iQ which was also 'electrified' and which although not great numbers for either car it outsells

EDIT: smart USA lost $16Mm in 2010

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/18/autos/smart-car-penske-mercedes.fortune/

but expects to sell 190,000 cars by 2015 ... has lost 1.5B €; 120M € this year

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-07-18/daimler-plans-smart-brand-scooters-and-bikes

This next restyle appears to be their last ditch effort to both make money and move some more volume ... many still count on gas going much higher in the U.S. to drive more small car sales but it just hasn't happened and with the recent oil reserves discovered its not likely; not unlike a limited range EV, this is a specific purpose car and the electric drive version is that much more targeted for what its use is ...

 

[AndyH]

Every single review of the US ICE Smart ForTwo that I've ever seen has panned it.

You do know this thread is about the Smart ForTwo Electric Drive, right? The electric car has better reviews, better crash test ratings - it's essentially a different car.

Based on your apparent fixation on the ICE version, I'm not surprised that you're not finding the correct reviews.

 

[cwerdna]

Every single review of the US ICE Smart ForTwo that I've ever seen has panned it.

You do know this thread is about the Smart ForTwo Electric Drive, right? The electric car has better reviews, better crash test ratings - it's essentially a different car.

Based on your apparent fixation on the ICE version, I'm not surprised that you're not finding the correct reviews.

Of course I know this is about the Smart ED. Yes, the reviews of the ED have been better.

But that doesn't change the facts that I've pointed out about the ICE version.

 

[redLEAF]

Every single review of the US ICE Smart ForTwo that I've ever seen has panned it.

You do know this thread is about the Smart ForTwo Electric Drive, right? The electric car has better reviews, better crash test ratings - it's essentially a different car.

Based on your apparent fixation on the ICE version, I'm not surprised that you're not finding the correct reviews.

Of course I know this is about the Smart ED. Yes, the reviews of the ED have been better.

But that doesn't change the facts that I've pointed out about the ICE version.

Although it may have been mentioned earlier, the simple fact is that the smart from its earliest beginnings was designed to accept an electric power plant when it was made available -- this has always played in its favor when it did finally become available, The Gen I and Gen II 'electric' versions were not all that bad just really expensive and slow (very much a congested urban center car) so now (not all, we're still waiting in the Midwest) comes the Gen III at a much more affordable price, a bit faster (although not a speed demon by any means) and this 'electric drive' even though sold in small numbers is doing OK. It even has a climate resistant battery which our LEAF's don't offer (yet anyway); many folks in AZ do fine with them. The Ed is already selling much more than the 60 or so per month that management expected -- perhaps not in the LEAF or Volt category but it's already outselling the FFE so enough people think its a viable EV.

 

[AndyH]

Since battery cooling seems to be a 'thing' these days, here's info from the Daimler service docs on the 2013 battery heating/cooling system (both stock and with the V03 cooling option):





The Smart is already fitted with cells built with ceramic separators, so the 'hot weather battery' is already there. I wonder if the added complexity of the 2nd layer of cooling is worthwhile considering the 45°C/113°F threshold to activate the refrigeration circuit. I also wonder if it's technically possible to activate the refrig system via the CAN at a lower temp...

 

[AndyH]

US 50-state roll-out delayed from Sep 2013 to 'early' 2014 due to battery shortage...

http://insideevs.com/mercedes-benz-rd-boss-discusses-smart-fortwo-electric-drives-9-month-wait-time/

...Nine month delay due to slow ramp-up in battery factory in Kamenz...next model year to use same battery tech...Daimler in talks with battery manufacturers world-wide to expand supplies...

 

[Anonymous]

Received my 2014 Smart Fortwo ED today.

Drove 90kms using 60% of State Of Charge, equating to 140km full range, and I drove very fast, constantly mashing the accelerator...including a romp on the highway, and used the heated seats at night.

The dealer received dozens of them "off the boat", and there is a $3000 "year end savings" offer right now: http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/forums/f170/mb-toronto-3000-year-end-savings-ed-58154/

Paid under $20K all in (taxes, ontario green plates, discounts, ontario rebate, etc).

I am over the moon happy with the car.

 

[redLEAF]

smart electric drive sales in the USA so far:

2 cars through April 2013
60 cars in May
53 cars in June
58 cars in July
182 cars in August
137 cars in September
111 cars in October, 603 cars total sales.

 

[Nashco]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so I decided to piggyback on this thread. I work for Daimler and we occassionally get some friends and family deals; this latest offer on the smart electric drive is too good to ignore! The smart ED doesn't have a DC fast charger, as much range as other cars like the Leaf, and of course is a 2 seater, but otherwise it's a pretty decent car. It's quick, the integration is well done, and it drives pretty nicely.

The local dealer in Portland will lease the smart electric drive for the following price:

$99.99 per month (including battery) for a 36 month lease, $1,999 due at signing

That's about $155/month for a lease vehicle with no maintenance costs and nearly free fuel! For somebody who can accept the two seater and range limitation, that's a REALLY good price. Most people spend that much on fuel just commuting back and forth to work!!! I must be present when the car is purchased to get the employee friends and family deal, which I'm happy to do for my friends on MNL, and this offer is ONLY valid at the local Portland dealer. If anybody is interested, contact me directly and I can share more specific details.

Bryce

 

[cwerdna]

Well, if I wanted to drive a Camry, I would have bought one. Brutal and ugly. Drove one on rental, was pathetic. Some people are willing to settle for average.
...
If you have not driven a Smart Electric, especially one tricked out with rediculous red boy racer interior like the one I ordered, you are missing out.

FWIW, I posted this in another forum a few weeks ago and just realized I should post it here... I did fix a typo.

BTW, I test drove the Smart ED at the SF Auto Show. I actually wanted to drive both the ICEV and ED, but they said only 1 test drive. I've never driven an EV w/the top down/open, so that was different. The interior bits felt very cheap and the brakes were really odd w/a stiff pedal. Overall, I'm not impressed, but didn't expect to be.

I'd much rather have a Camry that a Smart ED. If a Camry is "brutal and ugly" and "pathetic", boy...

For anyone who is used to the refinement and interior quality of a say a Leaf, FFE, Volt, or a Rav4 EV, be prepared for a err... different experience.