Home Depot $600 30A charger now back in stock for $799

[BestPal]

Sure, if the only additional cost is the "bigger" EVSE and heavier wire, it's easy to decide opt for 30a over 16a, but this board has lots of posts from people who've had complications.

As long as those people are not in the majority, the market will move to faster charging options. Those completely out luck with their house wiring might just have to live on 110v. Oh well. I've been on 110 for almost 2 months now so I can assure you it's totally doable. But do I want a 240V 30amp option - YES! and I can't wait to have it installed. I think I'm going with the new model from Bosch that's 30 amp and under $600 http://www.pluginnow.com/charging_stations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I do need a new 40amp circuit in my garage, and will update here how much it cost me if anyone is interested.

 

[Nubo]

... It's also better for the grid to spread out the charge operation over the entire off-peak time instead of a big pulse early in the evening. If a lot of EV's start pulling 6-7kW early in the evening, it's going to present a big problem in the long run.

And that's the kind of thing that could end up being a roadblock to EV adoption if we start hearing horror stories about burned out transformers, public utilities complaining, etc... Hopefully they will react by getting more serious about time of day incentives.

And not just for transformers. Maybe I'm just overly cautious but I'm afraid we may start seeing more instances of melted connectors, scorched wiring, or (heaven forbid) worse as 30A charging becomes the norm. That's a considerable load and continuous in a way that is not the norm for other household applications. Other high-load residential equipment (AC, ovens, electric water heaters, dryers) tend to have either shallower, shorter or more intermittent load cycles.

Not to say it isn't manageable but any substandard components or installation are going to be more likely to be exposed. And any news of dangerous electrical failures will become immediate fodder for the critics.

I think these are some of the reasons why Nissan went with 16A initially and the market has forced their hand.

Personally I was forced into 16A due to load calcs which would have demanded a service upgrade for anything more. If we do get another EV I'd replace one of our appliances with gas to free up a 50A circuit but I'd seriously consider a 16A unit anyway just for the margin of safety inherent at lower power levels. Ironically as battery capacities increase, the less important the home charging speed becomes.

 

[Ingineer]

No, from the consumer point of view, the faster one can re-charge the better. No "IF's or "BUT's" here. Buyers of 2013 models will not be looking into 16amp chargers because in the future they can potentially cause a "peak" on the grid in early evening if they go with 30amp. There is no going back to slower charging just because it's better on the grid, you can't reasonably expect majority of consumers to think that way. They want it charged and they want it charged fast. If they need to run an 8 gauge from the panel to achieve the result - so be it.

So with that logic, you'll pay me $500 to upgrade your smartphone charger to one that can be done in 15 minutes, right? :lol: Then, since the faster the better, you should also have a $25,000 CHAdeMO installed in your garage. :shock:

Because of my upgrade business, I have talked with literally thousands of LEAF owners, and I must say you are absolutely wrong!

In fact, quite a few 2013 LEAF owners purchased the base S model which only has a 3.3kW capability. Bottom line, for home charging, most owners are fully satisfied as long as the LEAF is ready to go when they are. In fact, one of the questions I get asked over and over again was "Is there a way I can slow the charge down?". That's also why I went to all the trouble to implement the programmable amperage feature our upgrades now ship with.

-Phil

 

[RonDawg]

Sure, if the only additional cost is the "bigger" EVSE and heavier wire, it's easy to decide opt for 30a over 16a, but this board has lots of posts from people who've had complications.

As long as those people are not in the majority, the market will move to faster charging options.

I've got a feeling that most people ARE in the majority when it comes to 100 amp or less electrical service at their homes. We just haven't seen too many issues yet simply due to the limited number of BEVs and PHEVs compared to ICEVs being sold every day.

It's more than just heavier wire and a bigger breaker. If your "drop" (the feed from the utility) doesn't support the heavier load, that would have to be upgraded too.

Remember that there are still quite a number of homes with old-fashioned glass fuses instead of circuit breakers. Ingineer mentioned in another thread that in his area, it's still not unusual to come across a house that still uses knob-and-tube wiring, and to simply add a 30 amp EVSE can up as high as "$20k" due to all of the other code-required upgrades that have to be done first.

 

[BestPal]

Phil, you're obviously convinced that your approach and slow charging is the best way to go. I see you probably won't change your opinion partially because of many of satisfied customers that went with 16A for 2011-2012 model but they didn't have a 30amp option, remember? And just because a lot of people are asking you to slow down charging doesn't mean that would be a good business decision and that the market is headed to slower charging. And yes, I see your logic that in most situations charging overnight is sufficient at any speed, but what you fail to understand is a need of a quick re-charge when you get home with almost zilch and need some decent amount of charge while your're having lunch or dinner (say an hour or two) and getting ready to go about your life.
And no, I wouldn't pay $500 for a quick smart phone charger that normally costs $5. That is some half-axx logic. It's 100 fold increase in price. Absurd comparison. When on the other hand a marginal increase in price from your business' EVSE upgrade of about $350 to $600 for a 30A station is less than double the money for almost double the performance. When you consider in $30K price of the car the difference becomes even more marginal and now really makes economic sense and for the situations when you need fast charging why not take that option? So no, I don't want to buy an EVSE upgrade, why is that treated by you almost criminal... Please stop pushing this product on me. If you don't have an option that market is now demanding... well you might just have to adjust your business to market demands to keep profits rolling in and not being pushed aside looking 36-48 months from now. Something to think about. On the bright side if sales of EV's keep increasing you will always have the segment of the market of car buyers that live in older houses and can't install faster charging stations. And that's fine if you're ok with it, just saying that your share of the market will be naturally decreasing with more cars being sold that are capable of faster charging. Prove me wrong. And that is market share, not the total amount of orders - that can increase marginally as the total amount of vehicles being sold is increasing dramatically.

 

[jimmyz80]

I'll play devils advocate here... I own a 2013 SL and a 30A Schneider EVSE, and I have no idea how people with the 3.3kW charger survive.

I can return home from my work commute, plug-in and by the time I've relaxed for an hour or so I've got enough of a charge to go pretty much anywhere I'd want for dinner. I also don't worry much about how long I need to be plugged in when I stop somewhere for a meal. In the time it takes me to eat a meal, I can usually get the car back up to an 80% charge or higher if I want.

In short, I'm NEVER waiting on my car to catch up with my lifestyle. With a 3.3kW charger I'd have to wait on it quite a bit.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

There is so much wrong with this post that I almost didn't bother, but eh, why not...

No, from the consumer point of view, the faster one can re-charge the better. No "IF's or "BUT's" here.

PLENTY of if's & but's here. You don't represent all users, or know what they all want. Choices are a good thing.

There is no going back to slower charging just because it's better on the grid, you can't reasonably expect majority of consumers to think that way.

You can. And you can also provide incentives to encourage this behavior. This is a lot easier & cheaper to do than build new power plants.

They want it charged and they want it charged fast.

Not always. You want it ready for your next trip.

If they need to run an 8 gauge from the panel to achieve the result - so be it.

Nope, definitely not the way most people think. Many reasons why this won't be an option for all potential EV owners.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

since the faster the better, you should also have a $25,000 CHAdeMO installed in your garage. :shock:

This one is only $10k. But I'm sure you can just run 8 gauge cable and it'll all be good!

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/13/nissan-reveals-sub-10-000-quick-charger/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

This one is only $10k. But I'm sure you can just run 8 gauge cable and it'll all be good!

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/13/nissan-reveals-sub-10-000-quick-charger/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, Nissan bragged about getting CHAdeMO chargers down to below $10K and it was briefly up at http://nissanqc.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. But, it vanished shortly afterward, leaving the $15.5K model...

 

[cgaydos]

I'll play devils advocate here... I own a 2013 SL and a 30A Schneider EVSE, and I have no idea how people with the 3.3kW charger survive.

I can return home from my work commute, plug-in and by the time I've relaxed for an hour or so I've got enough of a charge to go pretty much anywhere I'd want for dinner. I also don't worry much about how long I need to be plugged in when I stop somewhere for a meal. In the time it takes me to eat a meal, I can usually get the car back up to an 80% charge or higher if I want.

In short, I'm NEVER waiting on my car to catch up with my lifestyle. With a 3.3kW charger I'd have to wait on it quite a bit.

I'm with you on that. There have been times that both our 3.3kW charger LEAFs were out for long round trips and back by 1 or 2 pm ... and I'd wonder if the one I had plugged into the Schneider would have enough charge for my daughter's late afternoon 40 mile round trip back to campus. If we planned carefully we could make it, but if we'd had a 6.6kW charger LEAF we wouldn't have thought twice about it.

People's requirements differ - I can certainly understand that many people get by with a 16A EVSE and 3.3kW charger just fine, and all the power to them. I think the EVSEupgrade idea is great, and I will probably order one this fall when we have yet another kid driving to school so will probably want two 240V charging options at home. But all the same the 30A option is really nice if your home electrical system can easily support it.

 

[JeremyW]

... It's also better for the grid to spread out the charge operation over the entire off-peak time instead of a big pulse early in the evening. If a lot of EV's start pulling 6-7kW early in the evening, it's going to present a big problem in the long run.

And that's the kind of thing that could end up being a roadblock to EV adoption if we start hearing horror stories about burned out transformers, public utilities complaining, etc... Hopefully they will react by getting more serious about time of day incentives.

And not just for transformers. Maybe I'm just overly cautious but I'm afraid we may start seeing more instances of melted connectors, scorched wiring, or (heaven forbid) worse as 30A charging becomes the norm. That's a considerable load and continuous in a way that is not the norm for other household applications. Other high-load residential equipment (AC, ovens, electric water heaters, dryers) tend to have either shallower, shorter or more intermittent load cycles.

Not to say it isn't manageable but any substandard components or installation are going to be more likely to be exposed. And any news of dangerous electrical failures will become immediate fodder for the critics.

I think these are some of the reasons why Nissan went with 16A initially and the market has forced their hand.

It's much cheaper and easier for the utility to replace a transformer before it's blown then after. All the utilities I've seen (in California) are being pretty proactive about finding out the areas that have high EV concentrations and making sure there aren't any problems on the distribution grid. Of course, the utilities involment stops at your meter, and wiring concerns in the house are certainly valid. As far as the "bulk" transmission grid goes, demand spikes at the start time of TOU rates are a concern, but overal demand is still low, in the 10's of megawatts. Our low point (at 3ish in the morning) is around 20,000 MW for about 80% of the state. EV's are still in the noise... for now.

In the long run, I hope ev demand along with utility and homeowner renewable energy generation causes the entire grid to be made subsantially stronger and more robust. If the market truely demands fast at home charging (say batteries become ginormous due to a battery breakthrough), maybe we can get 3 phase pushed into homes. Huh? What oh sorry must have been dreaming there for a second. :roll: :lol: