Chevrolet Spark EV

[scottf200]

So...Tony Williams owned a Chevy Chevette at one time? YIKES! :shock: Tony: what were you thinking?? BTW, back in the '70's, my wife and I looked at a new YUGO. But I decided not to buy one because the door handle came off in my hand when I tried to open the door.

The fact he owned two cameros, a chevelle SS, and a vette made up for that!!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Title: Real-World Test Shows Chevy Spark-EV Has Substantially More Range Than Nissan LEAF @ 62 mph (w/video)
http://insideevs.com/real-world-test-shows-chevy-spark-ev-has-substainally-more-range-than-nissan-leaf-62-mph-wvideo/#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for reminding me of that thread. I've added my comment. Pls update your post with my comment. Also keep it updated so as not to be blatantly partial to one side :lol:

For the record - I do not consider test runs by enthusiasts to be more "valid real world" than EPA tests. Not that EPA tests are perfect - but they are better controlled.

Yes, thanks for pointing that out. Again, I disagree with your statement as we already know that (if we are talking about the same test) the one LEAF tested was degraded already. Not much “better controlled”. But, you seem to want to paint me as a hack, and somehow disprove something. You make these points based on your zero publically scutinized testing, by the way.

There are well done government / university studies that match our data perfectly, which is odd that you didn’t mention that. I’m not sure what your motivation is (because the LEAF got smoked?) but I hope you’ll agree that these test were, in fact, “better controlled” than the one you may be referring to:

Energy from the wall from dead to 100%: 25.414 kWh
Energy from the onboard charger to battery: 22.031 kWh (86.6% charger efficiency)
Energy from the battery during discharge: 21.381 kWh (our “21kWh useable” at 70F)

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2012/veh_sys_sim/vss030_lohsebusch_2012_o.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2012/adv_power_electronics/ape006_burress_2012_p.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But, if you like EPA type data, here it is for the LEAF around the world… The same car. Like car charging standards, the best thing is that there are so many to chose from:

124 miles = 200km Japan “EPA” rating for 2011-2012
142 miles = 228km Japan “EPA” for 2013
109 miles = 175km UK / Euro 2011-2013
73 miles = USA 2011-2012
75 miles = USA 2013, 84 miles at 100% and 66 miles at 80% charge

THESE ARE ALL THE SAME CAR WITH THE SAME BASIC REAL LIFE RANGE AT 100km, 2011-2013 LEAF. But, at least they are "better controlled".

 

[TonyWilliams]

So...Tony Williams owned a Chevy Chevette at one time? YIKES! :shock: Tony: what were you thinking?? BTW, back in the '70's, my wife and I looked at a new YUGO. But I decided not to buy one because the door handle came off in my hand when I tried to open the door.

The fact he owned two cameros, a chevelle SS, and a vette made up for that!!

Three Camaros!! One regular version, one Super Sport, and one Z28. All with manual gear boxes. When the Yugo came out (1985-1986??), I bought the first Hyundai that came to California. Great little car, but the manual gear box locked up at 75,000 hard miles. I got a second one, but then traded that for the Corvette. I traded the Corvette for a Winnebago motor home a few years later.

The Chevette was given to me, and I might have driven it three times. What a price of garbage, and no surprise that the Japanese car companies could "stroll right in". I gave it to my parents who drove it to their house, where it died. It went to the junk yard.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Hey, those moderators over on the GM-Volt forum are real pieces of ****. It looks like I'll get banned from that one!!!!

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?49001-DC-fast-charger-option-to-cost-750&p=841545#post841545" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You need to stop using the F word.

Facts?

Just to be clear, I didn't use the vulgar f-word, but instead the Frankenplug f-word.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
That's an amazing # of GM vehicles you've had, Tony.

Sheesh... my parents had only bought 3 GM vehicles and they were all not good from a reliability POV. One of them was a POS Chevette. Man, that car sucked. It couldn't turn, move, nor brake and was noisy.

They don't buy GM anymore (and I've never bought GM). Although the Volt was on my consideration list, I was loathe to support GM by buying/leasing a Volt, besides wanting to pure BEV. There are a multitude of other reasons why I ended up leasing a Leaf and not buying/leasing a Volt.

 

[surfingslovak]

For the record - I do not consider test runs by enthusiasts to be more "valid real world" than EPA tests. Not that EPA tests are perfect - but they are better controlled.

Point taken, but it's worth noting that a range test at 100 km/h (62.5 mph) is considered to be a good proxy for the real-world range of an EV by some experts in the academia. It certainly does provide valuable information to US consumers, since they tend to drive on the freeway most of the time. The EPA test cycle has changed over time, and it's a blend, which does not necessarily always align with your particular use case. I think it strives to set a realistic expectation, but your mileage will vary. This is especially true with EVs and all the contributing factors, which affect the range of the vehicle.

 

[evnow]

But, you seem to want to paint me as a hack, and somehow disprove something.

Nothing to prove or disprove. Nor I'm trying to paint you as anything - your tests are documented for people to draw their own conclusions.

All I was taking issue with was the "real life" comment in the article (that you didn't write). That is a general gripe of mine - people tend to call what they personally experience as "real life" and dismiss everything else. Reminds me of "real America" comment by a politician a few years back.

 

[GRA]

In an attempt to dial down the vitriol and get this thread back on track, I wanted to answer a question asked over on the gm-volt.com thread: According to the owner's manual: "The vehicle is designed to take full advantage of a 50kW DC charger to obtain optimal charging times." I can't remember if I'm a member over there or what my password might be, so if someone who is wants to post this info there, please do.

Also, I've been thinking a bit about Tony's range test and its implications. I consider the miles to LBW to be the normal range for planning purposes, with everything below that an emergency reserve. That being said, we get 78+ miles in ideal conditions at 62 mph. Although we currently lack any data on how much power is used by the TMS and HVAC systems, that 78 miles suggests to me that you could probably count on 1 hour at 60 and maybe even 65 mph including HVAC and TMS, with no head or sidewind component and on essentially flat ground, between 50 and 90 deg. F (10-32 deg. C), and at 60 mph maybe over the range 32-104 deg. F (0-40 deg. C). I'm guessing you could count on 50 miles for at least three years in those conditions, and probably five.

Tony, as people both here and at GM-Volt have commented, your repeated use of 'FrankenPlug' as an intentionally derogatory term doesn't help you make converts, it just puts backs up. We understand you have strong feelings about it and feel the need to express your contempt in a sarcastic manner. I suffer from the same problem on subjects I feel strongly about, even though I know it rarely helps. But I try to restrain my diatribes, and occasionally even succeed. IMO, using SAE or CCS instead of Frankenplug and expressing yourself with less venom would go a long way towards getting your message accepted. Consider this advice worth exactly what you paid for it. Who knows, maybe I'll start taking my own advice more often.

 

[DaveEV]

For example, in San Diego at 12am every day there is a huge spike in load (last report shows about 1 MW) due to LEAFs on timers that all start charging immediately at midnight.

San Diego Gas & Electric's peak in the summer is 4,600 MW. I'm not sure 1MW qualifies as a huge spike in load.

Context Robert, context.

For sure it's not a huge in relation to the total demand in San Diego (btw, where can you get that data?), but this data only covers about 700 residential stations in the EV Project. There should be at least 3 times that number of plug-ins in San Diego - probably closer to 4 times that number. Assuming that this behavior is representative, the actual spike in demand could be 3-4 times higher. Still a drop in the bucket compared to total peak loads, but imagine that we have 100 times the plug-ins and all of a sudden we are talking about 250 MW of demand coming on at the stroke of midnight. Even the best gas turbines can't ramp up that quickly, though at least the demand is very predictable so it should be easier to plan for.

BTW - the spike in demand could easily have been 2x higher if the LEAF/Volt/etc shipped with 6.6 kW chargers instead of 3.3 kW chargers...

 

[TonyWilliams]

But, you seem to want to paint me as a hack, and somehow disprove something.

Nothing to prove or disprove. Nor I'm trying to paint you as anything - your tests are documented for people to draw their own conclusions.

All I was taking issue with was the "real life" comment in the article (that you didn't write). That is a general gripe of mine - people tend to call what they personally experience as "real life" and dismiss everything else. Reminds me of "real America" comment by a politician a few years back.

Ok, sorry I jumped to conclusions (which is one of my pet peeves!!).

 

[blackmamba]

$99 per month lease for an EV SPark??

http://www.chevynorthridge.com/Newspaper-Specials" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even a moron would be saving more each month just by not buying gasoline.

 

[cwerdna]

$99 per month lease for an EV SPark??

http://www.chevynorthridge.com/Newspaper-Specials" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even a moron would be saving more each month just by not buying gasoline.

Doesn't include tax, title and license. And, it's only 10K miles/year along w/a high down payment.

Prior to leasing my Leaf, I'd also seen $99/mo Leaf leases. They also had similar catches (but usually higher allowed mileage) and high upfront down payments (e.g. over $4K). One can always make a payment low by jacking up the down payment. But, that's a bad thing to do on a lease.

 

[fengshui]

$99 per month lease for an EV SPark??

http://www.chevynorthridge.com/Newspaper-Specials" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even a moron would be saving more each month just by not buying gasoline.

Doesn't include tax, title and license. And, it's only 10K miles/year along w/a high down payment.

Prior to leasing my Leaf, I'd also seen $99/mo Leaf leases. They also had similar catches (but usually higher allowed mileage) and high upfront down payments (e.g. over $4K). One can always make a payment low by jacking up the down payment. But, that's a bad thing to do on a lease.

Yeah. I don't get that they're either taking a substantial hit to profits on that, nor are they getting a big contribution from GM. It's just manipulating the lease math to push down the monthly payment at a higher down payment. They may also be making a play for a volume bonus from GM. Rydell's sales manager has been regularly advertising on the Spark EV forums.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Tony, as people both here and at GM-Volt have commented, your repeated use of 'FrankenPlug' as an intentionally derogatory term doesn't help you make converts... IMO, using SAE or CCS instead of Frankenplug and expressing yourself with less venom would go a long way towards getting your message accepted. Consider this advice worth exactly what you paid for it. Who knows, maybe I'll start taking my own advice more often.

Oh, I'm not "converting" anybody on this subject, nor do I expect to. Folks who had no idea that there already was several existing DC and fast AC charging protocols in the world, and thought SAE/GM was it, perhaps we can educate a few of them before they get stuck with a Frankenplug car that they may have not wanted had they known.

If I never used "Frankenplug", I'd still have issues with the GM-Volt gestapo.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
The above isn't surprising. From what I can gather on Priuschat, it seems many Prius drivers and PiP owners have no idea about CHAdeMO, let alone Frakenplug, esp. since Toyota sells no vehicles w/DC fast charging capability. I'd imagine that people who don't care about BEVs/PHEVs have no idea and those who care a little don't know either.

I see all the newbie mistakes about there and on Teslamotorsclub of people calling incorrectly calling EVSEs "chargers". Some PiP owners owners incorrectly refer to charging at 240 volts as "fast charging". :roll:

 

[surfingslovak]

If I never used "Frankenplug", I'd still have issues with the GM-Volt gestapo.

I think that's just WopOnTour, who did not strike me as particularly level-headed or unbiased. It's really unfortunate, especially given the fact that he has moderator powers. It can easily give a forum certain reputation.

I see all the newbie mistakes about there and on Teslamotorsclub of people calling incorrectly calling EVSEs "chargers". Some PiP owners owners incorrectly refer to charging at 240 volts as "fast charging". :roll:

I dipped my toes into the waters on Priuschat. It's interesting to look at the EV world through the eyes of PiP and other Prius owners. TMC has gotten quite busy, probably thanks to the influx of new Model S owners. Sometimes I find the tone there comparable to what we saw on this forum early on.

 

[RegGuheert]

For example, in San Diego at 12am every day there is a huge spike in load (last report shows about 1 MW) due to LEAFs on timers that all start charging immediately at midnight. Interestingly there is also another smaller spike at 1am, probably due to the broken daylight savings programming on the metering system.

Are you positive it is the LEAFs causing this spike? I thought that Nissan had developed advanced clocks for the LEAF with widely-varying times so as to spread the application of the load onto the utilities!

 

[mkjayakumar]

Sometimes I find the tone there comparable to what we saw on this forum early on.

Absolutely. I see the wild cock-eyed optimism (to quote Kramer from Seinfeld) in TMC, almost similar to what we saw here two years ago. Every time battery degradation and heat and supercharging is mentioned, I see that it is ignored or brushed aside with a terse, 'Battery is liquid cooled. So all is well'.

I really hope (and sometimes pray) that Model S really stands the test of time in TX and AZ. If it does, there is no looking back and TSLA will hit $200 and beyond. If not, I shudder to think what will happen. To me the Roadsters are a small sample that is not too significant to understand the effects of heat on battery.

 

[scottf200]

Aside:

I think that's just WopOnTour, who did not strike me as particularly level-headed or unbiased. It's really unfortunate, especially given the fact that he has moderator powers. It can easily give a forum certain reputation.

He is the main/top moderator dealing with the forum management company. He knows his stuff and has access to stuff. He has details as a long long time GM tech with emphasis in hybrids and electrics. He has always been great to me and there are regularly various conversations going on in a moderator section to see how to handle certain situations.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I really hope (and sometimes pray) that Model S really stands the test of time in TX and AZ. If it does, there is no looking back and TSLA will hit $200 and beyond. If not, I shudder to think what will happen. To me the Roadsters are a small sample that is not too significant to understand the effects of heat on battery.

My car, with 20,000 miles is at about 6.5% degradation now. There are two significant differences between my Rav4 EV and the Roadster / Model S.

1) cells are not "actively" cooled. Only during "READY" mode or when charging are the cells "conditioned".

2) cells are likely 2200ma (same as Roadster) versus 3100ma in Model S.