Chevrolet Spark EV

[DaveEV]

For example, in San Diego at 12am every day there is a huge spike in load (last report shows about 1 MW) due to LEAFs on timers that all start charging immediately at midnight. Interestingly there is also another smaller spike at 1am, probably due to the broken daylight savings programming on the metering system.

Are you positive it is the LEAFs causing this spike? I thought that Nissan had developed advanced clocks for the LEAF with widely-varying times so as to spread the application of the load onto the utilities!

It's GM who designed that feature into the Volt, not Nissan on the LEAF that did that. The majority of EV Project vehicles are LEAFs (669 LEAFs, 269 Volts), so...

My car, with 20,000 miles is at about 6.5% degradation now. There are two significant differences between my Rav4 EV and the Roadster / Model S.

1) cells are not "actively" cooled. Only during "READY" mode or when charging are the cells "conditioned".
2) cells are likely 2200ma (same as Roadster) versus 3100ma in Model S.

Didn't you also pull the Battery TMS fuse on your car to reduce vampire losses? Or was that just for the winter?

It's not clear when the Model S runs it's TMS. Some people believe that it runs less than the Roadster ran it and may allow temperatures up to 90F before cooling the pack...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Didn't you also pull the Battery TMS fuse on your car to reduce vampire losses? Or was that just for the winter?

It's not clear when the Model S runs it's TMS. Some people believe that it runs less than the Roadster ran it and may allow temperatures up to 90F before cooling the pack...

No, I didn't pull any fuses, or attempt to disable the TMS. The Rav4 EV doesn't have vampire losses, which is why it's important to have the car either charging or in READY when it's brutally hot out. When it was 100F degrees in Oregon in June (during BC2BC-2013), I just left the car in READY all day that we were in Grants Pass.

When I left the Rav4 parked for 3 weeks, there was no loss of range (hence, no vampires). I was told by Sheldon Brown, Rav4 EV project manager, that Toyota tested these cells to 60C, where the bad stuff starts happening (according to him).

I'm confident that the Model S is not as aggressive in active TMS than what the Roadster does, but they are also two different cells.

 

[RegGuheert]

For example, in San Diego at 12am every day there is a huge spike in load (last report shows about 1 MW) due to LEAFs on timers that all start charging immediately at midnight. Interestingly there is also another smaller spike at 1am, probably due to the broken daylight savings programming on the metering system.

Are you positive it is the LEAFs causing this spike? I thought that Nissan had developed advanced clocks for the LEAF with widely-varying times so as to spread the application of the load onto the utilities!

It's GM who designed that feature into the Volt, not Nissan on the LEAF that did that. The majority of EV Project vehicles are LEAFs (669 LEAFs, 269 Volts), so...

It was a joke, but it must not have been a very good one...

The point is that the clocks in the LEAFs are so inaccurate that they should spread the onset of charging each night.

 

[RegGuheert]

I really hope (and sometimes pray) that Model S really stands the test of time in TX and AZ. If it does, there is no looking back and TSLA will hit $200 and beyond. If not, I shudder to think what will happen. To me the Roadsters are a small sample that is not too significant to understand the effects of heat on battery.

My car, with 20,000 miles is at about 6.5% degradation now. There are two significant differences between my Rav4 EV and the Roadster / Model S.

1) cells are not "actively" cooled. Only during "READY" mode or when charging are the cells "conditioned".

2) cells are likely 2200ma (same as Roadster) versus 3100ma in Model S.

And I would say there is a third one, too:

3) The range of your vehicle is lower at around 120 miles. The difference is that when you drive on the highway you are discharging at about C/2 versus C/5 in the Model S and each trip in your RAV4 EV results in a higher DOD (by about 2.5X). The point being that the cycling needed to drive 20,000 miles in your vehicle is roughly equivalent to the cycling needed to drive 50,000 miles on a Model S with the big battery. (Of course calendar losses should likely be similar, cooling differences notwithstanding.) This fact bodes very well for the life expectancy for the Model S!

OTOH, your 20,000 miles' woth of cycling would only propel you about 12,000 miles in a LEAF and maybe 15,000 miles in a Spark EV.

 

[mkjayakumar]

My car, with 20,000 miles is at about 6.5% degradation now. T

Well, 6.5% at 20K miles is great and I would take that any day if it were a Leaf, but for Rav4 with Tesla power train it is worrisome. Even assuming a linear extrapolation (which I am pretty sure it is not going to be linear) we are looking at over 30% range loss before 100K miles ?

 

[dgpcolorado]

It was a joke, but it must not have been a very good one...

The point is that the clocks in the LEAFs are so inaccurate that they should spread the onset of charging each night.

I enjoyed your wry reference to the LEAF clocks. But I will point out that it is the dash clock that some have found inaccurate (mine has always been dead-on correct). And I believe that the console clock is the one used to operate the timers (except for the 2013 S model, and it has an end-time-only charge timer).

 

[GRA]

I've been reading "Electric Vehicle Integration into Modern Power Networks" (Garcia-Valle, Rodrigo, and Pecas Lopes, Joao, ed. , 2013). One of the things it makes obvious, using various charging scenarios (dumb aka immediate, multi-tariff aka ToU, and Smart Charging) and EV integration levels from various countries' (in Europe) demand graphs, is that it's better for the grid to use an end timer than a start timer. Using an end timer with or without a rate feature is sort of smart charging on the cheap. It avoids the spikes which can result in new demand peaks from either dumb or ToU charging with start timers. Using an end timer with ToU boosts baseload (aka valley-filling) instead, in a smooth and steady way, because individual cars all start charging at different times and will be demanding different levels of power at any given time. Using start timers, they're usually all set to kick on when the ToU rate starts, and regardless of the amount of energy they need to recharge, they're all pulling max. power at that time.

So, while the power spike may not be that large in absolute terms, if it comes on top of the already existing peak it can cause problems. End timers and smart charging avoid this.

 

[DaveEV]

No, I didn't pull any fuses, or attempt to disable the TMS.

Thanks for the clarification, I must have misunderstood something you said earlier.

it's important to have the car either charging or in READY when it's brutally hot out. When it was 100F degrees in Oregon in June (during BC2BC-2013), I just left the car in READY all day that we were in Grants Pass.

Good strategy! I really wish the LEAF had some sort of TMS for the battery for situations like that. Saturday afternoon I QCed the car in 85-90F heat which of course bumped pack temperatures up to 100F. It was nice to leave the AC on _in_ the car at a nice frosty temp while waiting, but it would have been nicer to also work to cool the pack down as well! At least the pack cooled back to 75F by morning, so no long term heating of the pack due to QC.

+1 Spark EV w/TMS.

 

[blackmamba]

BTW, a Rav4 EV will absolutely kill the spark in any race, and it's a 4k pound SUV, which is a fair comparison since both cars are compliance vehicles.

If the Spark motor was really innovative, you would see a much better performing car. You don't, which means the Spark motor is just a plain jane run of the mill. A vehicle's performance speaks for itself, no need to cherry pick bogus numbers to make it look good.

The rav4 ev will absolutely kill the spark at any speed, and of course a clown car is going to get better mpge than a SUV. When it comes to efficiency, the Tesla drivetrain is going to be just as efficient as the spark(look at the roadster mpge, which is close to the same weight as the Spark), if not better.

Extra: Spark EV toasts Tony Williams RAV4 EV in drag race

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=4012&sid=cf1436e1d8e248d0002870fa2fd6d12f#p4012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[SanDust]

BTW, a Rav4 EV will absolutely kill the spark in any race, and it's a 4k pound SUV, which is a fair comparison since both cars are compliance vehicles.

If the Spark motor was really innovative, you would see a much better performing car. You don't, which means the Spark motor is just a plain jane run of the mill. A vehicle's performance speaks for itself, no need to cherry pick bogus numbers to make it look good.

The rav4 ev will absolutely kill the spark at any speed, and of course a clown car is going to get better mpge than a SUV. When it comes to efficiency, the Tesla drivetrain is going to be just as efficient as the spark(look at the roadster mpge, which is close to the same weight as the Spark), if not better.

Extra: Spark EV toasts Tony Williams RAV4 EV in drag race

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=4012&sid=cf1436e1d8e248d0002870fa2fd6d12f#p4012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ROTFLMAO. Won't matter though. Some people have their minds made up and facts simply won't change their opinions. We have our fair share on this forum. I fully expect a parade of reasons why what happened didn't really happen! :lol: Of course the comment about the Tesla drive train being more efficient is beyond ridiculous -- the numbers on that are contrary crazy -- but that won't matter to him.

Well, 6.5% at 20K miles is great and I would take that any day if it were a Leaf, but for Rav4 with Tesla power train it is worrisome. Even assuming a linear extrapolation (which I am pretty sure it is not going to be linear) we are looking at over 30% range loss before 100K miles ?

The Panasonic cells lose capacity early on and then settle into a much more gradual decline. Cut the loss in half over the next 20K miles and then cut it in half again over the subsequent 20k. Think car depreciation. :| The battery pack is large enough that you won't see super high C rate discharges.

 

[qwk]

ROTFLMAO. Won't matter though. Some people have their minds made up and facts simply won't change their opinions. We have our fair share on this forum. I fully expect a parade of reasons why what happened didn't really happen! :lol: Of course the comment about the Tesla drive train being more efficient is beyond ridiculous -- the numbers on that are contrary crazy -- but that won't matter to him.

Facts? Lol

I stand by my statement. Did you not read that Tony's rav4 was not in sport mode, and when he put it in sport mode it fried the tires?

I'm willing to setup a race at an NHRA dragstrip and put my money where my mouth is. The question is, are you? Talk is cheap.

 

[blackmamba]

I stand by my statement. Did you not read that Tony's rav4 was not in sport mode, and when he put it in sport mode it fried the tires?

Funny guy - standing by his statement that was proven false - two times. "You can't handle the truth!!" according to Jack.

BTW, you missed the part where it was said once the tires got their grip, the Spark EV was still pulling away. Must be tough these days to be a GM hater.

 

[qwk]

I stand by my statement. Did you not read that Tony's rav4 was not in sport mode, and when he put it in sport mode it fried the tires?

Funny guy - standing by his statement that was proven false - two times. "You can't handle the truth!!" according to Jack.

BTW, you missed the part where it was said once the tires got their grip, the Spark EV was still pulling away. Must be tough these days to be a GM hater.

Not a GM hater, I hate manufacturers that build junk, and then are bailed out to continue building more junk. A Tesla P85 will smoke EVERY stock new GM car except the Zo6 vette, and the caddy cts-v. That is a hell of an accomplishment for an all electric car.

Like I said, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Too bad shills like you won't. Track times and trap speeds never lie.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... A Tesla P85 will smoke EVERY stock new GM car except the Zo6 vette, and the caddy cts-v. That is a hell of an accomplishment for an all electric car.

Like I said, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Too bad shills like you won't. Track times and trap speeds never lie.

It's kinda fun that you two can talk smack about electric cars!!

 

[blackmamba]

I stand by my statement. Did you not read that Tony's rav4 was not in sport mode, and when he put it in sport mode it fried the tires?

Funny guy - standing by his statement that was proven false - two times. "You can't handle the truth!!" according to Jack.

BTW, you missed the part where it was said once the tires got their grip, the Spark EV was still pulling away. Must be tough these days to be a GM hater.

Not a GM hater, I hate manufacturers that build junk, and then are bailed out to continue building more junk. A Tesla P85 will smoke EVERY stock new GM car except the Zo6 vette, and the caddy cts-v. That is a hell of an accomplishment for an all electric car.

Like I said, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Too bad shills like you won't. Track times and trap speeds never lie.

Of course you are a GM hater. You are just completely out of touch with reality, as evident by your insistence on holding to your fantasies in spite of truth slapping you in the face.

You want to bet? OK, let's have it be, say, 20% of your net worth vs. 20% of mine. Spark EV vs. RAV4 EV. You take the RAV4, I'll take the Spark EV. And then after I win, let's have a Model S vs. Spark EV 60mph-90mph triple or nothing faceoff. You put up 40% of your net worth - if you win, you get the 20% you lost back; if you lose, you still end up with 40% of your net worth. Probably enough for you to buy a Spark EV to replace the Model S you've dreamed about. Why triple? You are so confident you will win, there really is no need to explain.

 

[derkraut]

Gee.....I can just feel the testosterone permeating this thread. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[pchilds]

20% of blackmamba's net worth is probably in 3 digits. :lol:

 

[TonyWilliams]

20% of blackmamba's net worth is probably in 3 digits. :lol:

Ok, now I have to clean off my keyboard. Didn't see that one coming!

:twisted:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Gee.....I can just feel the testosterone permeating this thread. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Heck, I feel like we're in high school, except I would not have known what a Nissan (Datsun) or a Toyota was.

 

[evnow]

I'd like to see this bet carried out !

qwk will probably suggest a bet of 10,000 (remember ?!) instead of % of networth.