Chevrolet Spark EV

[DaveEV]

What happened to friendly pizza bets?

 

[Volt3939]

I'd like to see this bet carried out !

qwk will probably suggest a bet of 10,000 (remember ?!) instead of % of networth.

"Wall, I'm not a bettin' man", but I'd suggest specifying stock tires for both vehicles.

Having driven both a Spark and a Rav4EV in the last month, I'd be hard pressed to know which is actually faster. Side by side with drivers that at least practiced a few runs to find the best launch technique would be the best way to find out...

 

[EVDRIVER]

One of the issues with the RAV is traction, I have driven it and if it were RWD it could get its power properly to the road rather than spinning the tires. Even a better FWD implementation would be helpful. It is very probable the power has been factory regulated on the drive because of the RAVs drive system as well. Do note this is not the same drive as a Model S.

The spark is a lower weight vehicle but this nonsense of a high tech motor is just marketing, it is just a different implementation of an another variant of a traction motor, there is no super tech inside but that also does not mean it is an inferior design either. Some designs are more efficient than others and some are set up to perform better at different speeds and for different types of needs based on the vehicle and design goals. It's a shame GM picked such a econobox to use as their EV but this was a rush job like the LEAF.

Don't expect motor tech to change quickly, for EV performance it will come down to weight and aerodynamics, of course this has held constant from day one but most folks don't understand this, just look at how LEAF buyers don't understand the impact of hills and speed.

Footnote:

The RAV motor is not the same size as any other Tesla traction drive. Could this be a test exercise for a smaller motor for the Gen III Tesla drive or just a costly tooling for the RAV only? The RAV does have some new gen Toyota electronics that will go in future Toyota vehicles, more testing. The RAV is not just a compliance car, it was a brilliant solution for both Tesla and Toyota's issues. NUMI, CARB, Investments, PR, green washing, etc. If anyone thinks Toyota needed any help from Tesla to do an EV then then perhaps they forgot to notice the Prius is not a DC conversion with flooded cell batteries and a volt meter Read between the lines, and look at what this partnership was in it's entirety, it was clear when it was only a rumor. The Spark is just a poor patch job for GM to do a quick EV, sort of a joke based on the capabilities of GM but it serves its purpose for a very short time. GM can also test this drive for their future EV offerings, it could be a goal of a universal drive for several vehicles.

 

[qwk]

Funny guy - standing by his statement that was proven false - two times. "You can't handle the truth!!" according to Jack.

BTW, you missed the part where it was said once the tires got their grip, the Spark EV was still pulling away. Must be tough these days to be a GM hater.

Not a GM hater, I hate manufacturers that build junk, and then are bailed out to continue building more junk. A Tesla P85 will smoke EVERY stock new GM car except the Zo6 vette, and the caddy cts-v. That is a hell of an accomplishment for an all electric car.

Like I said, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Too bad shills like you won't. Track times and trap speeds never lie.

Of course you are a GM hater. You are just completely out of touch with reality, as evident by your insistence on holding to your fantasies in spite of truth slapping you in the face.

You want to bet? OK, let's have it be, say, 20% of your net worth vs. 20% of mine. Spark EV vs. RAV4 EV. You take the RAV4, I'll take the Spark EV. And then after I win, let's have a Model S vs. Spark EV 60mph-90mph triple or nothing faceoff. You put up 40% of your net worth - if you win, you get the 20% you lost back; if you lose, you still end up with 40% of your net worth. Probably enough for you to buy a Spark EV to replace the Model S you've dreamed about. Why triple? You are so confident you will win, there really is no need to explain.

Wow. I don't even know what to say.

I was thinking the fair thing to do was more like the losing side gets to cover the expenses for this little test. Getting a hold of a Spark may be a little hard at this point because of the limited availability, but should be doable sometime soon. Even with a track rental for a few hours, this little stunt shouldn't cost more than about $1k.

Have you driven any of the mentioned vehicles, or do you just eat up every piece of BS marketing? You seem very ignorant of the potential of a Tesla drivetrain.

 

[qwk]

"Wall, I'm not a bettin' man", but I'd suggest specifying stock tires for both vehicles.

Of course that would be the plan. This would be a very fair, non bias test, in which both of the vehicles would be given plenty of runs. The best time-slip for the day wins.

 

[TomT]

I somehow think that the Leaf was NOT the rush job that the Spark may be... However, that is NOT to say that the Spark is necessarily diminished by that... I haven't driven on yet so I'll reserve judgement until I do...

It's a shame GM picked such a econobox to use as their EV but this was a rush job like the LEAF.

 

[qwk]

One of the issues with the RAV is traction, I have driven it and if it were RWD it could get its power properly to the road rather than spinning the tires. Even a better FWD implementation would be helpful. It is very probable the power has been factory regulated on the drive because of the RAVs drive system as well. Do note this is not the same drive as a Model S.

The spark is a lower weight vehicle but this nonsense of a high tech motor is just marketing, it is just a different implementation of an another variant of a traction motor, there is no super tech inside but that also does not mean it is an inferior design either. Some designs are more efficient than others and some are set up to perform better at different speeds and for different types of needs based on the vehicle and design goals. It's a shame GM picked such a econobox to use as their EV but this was a rush job like the LEAF.

Don't expect motor tech to change quickly, for EV performance it will come down to weight and aerodynamics, of course this has held constant from day one but most folks don't understand this, just look at how LEAF buyers don't understand the impact of hills and speed.

Footnote:

The RAV motor is not the same size as any other Tesla traction drive. Could this be a test exercise for a smaller motor for the Gen III Tesla drive or just a costly tooling for the RAV only? The RAV does have some new gen Toyota electronics that will go in future Toyota vehicles, more testing. The RAV is not just a compliance car, it was a brilliant solution for both Tesla and Toyota's issues. NUMI, CARB, Investments, PR, green washing, etc. If anyone thinks Toyota needed any help from Tesla to do an EV then then perhaps they forgot to notice the Prius is not a DC conversion with flooded cell batteries and a volt meter Read between the lines, and look at what this partnership was in it's entirety, it was clear when it was only a rumor. The Spark is just a poor patch job for GM to do a quick EV, sort of a joke based on the capabilities of GM but it serves its purpose for a very short time.

You are right, the rav4 ev has a ton of wheel spin and to torque steer. The rumor is that Tesla gave it more power, but Toyota would have none of that as it would make their V6 version seem anemic. The end result was the power limited car that is sold now.

The rav4 Ev absolutely has the same drivetrain as the Model S(about the only thing that might be different is a lower power inverter).

That's the thing that makes me mad the most. GM's flat out BS marketing. They twist numbers and facts around to suit their purpose, and the ignorant eat it up. The Spark might have 400 ft lb of torque measured somewhere in the drivetrain, BUT if you compare it with a Model S P85 for example, and put them both on the rollers(torque will be measured exactly in the same manner), the Model S will have double if not more torque than the Spark, even though it's rated at 443 ft lb.

 

[Bicster]

I don't get the impression that the Spark is a rush job. I think GM has been able to apply lessons from the Volt and even the EV1 and produce a great conversion. I'm glad to see them back in the BEV business. It's too bad their BEV had to be a minicar, though. I'd never consider it for that reason alone. I would be more interested in pure-electric conversion of the Volt.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The RAV motor is not the same size as any other Tesla traction drive. Could this be a test exercise for a smaller motor for the Gen III Tesla drive or just a costly tooling for the RAV only? The RAV does have some new gen Toyota electronics that will go in future Toyota vehicles, more testing. The RAV is not just a compliance car, it was a brilliant solution for both Tesla and Toyota's issues. NUMI, CARB, Investments, PR, green washing, etc. If anyone thinks Toyota needed any help from Tesla to do an EV then then perhaps they forgot to notice the Prius is not a DC conversion with flooded cell batteries and a volt meter Read between the lines, and look at what this partnership was in it's entirety, it was clear when it was only a rumor.

Wow, that's a wild side note! The motor is EXACTLY the same size as that in the Model S; why on earth would they build a separate motor for 2600 total Rav4 EV production? Answer; they didn't.

The Rav4 EV is so strictly "CARB-ZEV compliance only" that:

1) it is only sold in California
2) all the EV components are strictly Tesla, except for the teeny, tiny parts that Toyota sourced; the Denso 6kW that is connected to the existing oil burner heater core for the ultimate in cheap and simple cabin heating (note; the marriage between Toyota and Tesla is so disfunctional that there is a separate resistance heater of a different brand to heat the battery). The power brakes and power steering are Toyota sourced... maybe. And the nose cone, rear spoiler, and Korean market rear view mirrors. Plus the dash instruments, navigation and heater controls. Toyota did the crash testing, too.
3) Toyota was so disinterested (and cheap) that they reused wheels, tires, interior, etc from 2009 Rav4.
4) has no logical EV accessories like CHAdeMO quick charge (Toyota is a founding member).
5) is built on a cancelled body style (2006-2012 Rav4).
6) the total production was announced before one was built (2600).
7) Toyota loses ten of THOUSANDS of dollars per Rav4 EV sold.
8) it will be replaced with a Toyota hydrogen car for 2015-2017 (that will also be a strict compliance car).
9) the single largest tow truck call is for the failure of Gateway ECU / communications module (built by Tesla) that is connecting the stone age, but rock sold Toyota ECU with the Tesla bits. There aren't "special" Toyota electronics, unless you include the charge timer that is all but worthless (note: among the several failure modes, the most bizarre is the 31st day of the month one...yep, cutting edge high tech here).
10) the car was so rushed through development that is was released for production with a multitude of failures. For instance, the 30-ish pre-production prototypes all had Tesla Roadster hardware (since the Model S stuff wasn't ready yet), which included a Roadster charge port. The production car was released with likely ZERO testing of the Yazaki J1772 charge port (which I melted mine in a few weeks after delivery).
11) I'm digging the exhaust hangers that Toyota left on the car... it might have cost 8 pennies per car to remove them, I guess.
12) in order to get CARB-ZEV credit for 2012 model year, they were still selling 2012 model year cars this summer.
13) Toyota so desperately needs to unload these cars to meet CARB-ZEV quotas, they are now offering $15,400 off. Are there any other Toyota cars with this offer (or any cars by any mainstream manufacturer with this offer!!!??!?!?!.
14) Toyota paid Tesla $60.1 million for the R&D on the Rav4 EV... they don't give away money for fun.
15) a first and second generation Rav4 EV owner happened to meet up with Elon Musk at a party in LA and discussed the car. Elon said that he had offered the Tesla drivetrains and components for cost, so that Toyota could lower the price of the Rav4 EV... Toyota said no.
16) the only change between a 2012, 2013 and 2014 Rav4 EV is the 8th digit in the VIN... C, D, or E.
17) and the final issue... TOYOTA DOES NOT LIKE BATTERY ELECTRIC CARS, and is very public in that dislike. Read the news.

 

[jhm614]

... A Tesla P85 will smoke EVERY stock new GM car except the Zo6 vette, and the caddy cts-v. That is a hell of an accomplishment for an all electric car.

Like I said, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Too bad shills like you won't. Track times and trap speeds never lie.

It's kinda fun that you two can talk smack about electric cars!!

+1 It does my heart good to see it!

 

[edatoakrun]

Back on-topic.

I got to take a short drive in the Spark EV at the Google EV summit.

If you want to drive a BEV fast-to-60-mph-for-cheap, buy one.

It is quick, though the ~900 lb Twizzy (with the right tires) might be even quicker, and would be a hell of a lot more fun on the mountain roads I usually drive.

IMO, the Spark is just not comparable to the LEAF, a mass-produced BEV with much more room and superior design.

GM just could not convert a pigs ear of an ICEV into a silk purse of a BEV.

The biggest design failure of the Spark for me, is in that I was able to drive about a half of my ~730 mile LEAF trip using public DC, entering the fast charge-age in Vacaville, and (sadly) Leaving it in Petaluma.

If I owned a Spark, even if it had a SAE DC port, I would have used an ICEV for this trip.

And since Nissan is the only manufacturer building and selling affordable DC-capable BEV's in large numbers, I expect that may be the case for many more years.

 

[scottf200]

I don't get the impression that the Spark is a rush job. I think GM has been able to apply lessons from the Volt and even the EV1 and produce a great conversion. I'm glad to see them back in the BEV business. It's too bad their BEV had to be a minicar, though. I'd never consider it for that reason alone. I would be more interested in pure-electric conversion of the Volt.

Why are people not thinking more globally with the SPARK-EV? Other countries sure don't mind smaller cars and find them a necessity in some cases (i.e. parking, city street size, etc, etc).

After all the LEAF sold more way more than half ... 43K outside of the USA+Canada.

75K - (31215 + 700) = ~43K
Worldwide - (USA + Canada) = ~43K
USA & Canada sales from goodcarbadcar. 75K from news today.

 

[Stoaty]

Surprised to see a billboard for the Chevy Spark a couple of days ago. For those in the San Fernando Valley (L.A. area), it is on the west side of Canoga Avenue a couple of blocks south of Sherman way.

 

[nosuchthing]

My Spark sure beats my Leaf in one thing - range. 90+ vs. 60+ So the range cool factor is definitely there...

I did lease this time. That's the only difference.

There are advantages and disandvantages to both, so it's a washout, really.
Spark does need a software upgrade bulletin, though. Sooner would be better that later.

Other than that, Spark will cost me "only" about 3,200 bucks over 3 years. That's it.
It's cheaper than buying a "cheap" ICE with leaky oil, worn-out clutch or slipping AT, blown headgasket issues, timing belt, 4 dollar gas, and so on. Y'all know what I mean.

 

[sparky]

I test drove a SparkEV over the weekend.

Notes:
The Chevy dealer had 3 SparkEVs. I asked the first salesman I found about one in front and he said "how about a test drive?" No, drivers license check and exchange of all manner of personal info that many test drives require. Nice.

It's not as small inside as it seems from the outside but still seems like a car I wouldn't want to drive more than 20 miles at a time.

Jumped in, he said I was really gonna love how quick this thing is "over 440 lbs of torque", etc.
Applied "Sport Mode". At the first stop light with a clear road in front, I jumped on it at the green... sprightly acceleration, only a notch up from the LEAF from 0-30.
Front tires slipped quite a bit but no smoke.

Then a few blocks away at a wide thoroughfare (50 MPH), I jumped on it again and took it up to 55MPH. It's got legs above 50 it seems but the wheel base is so short and the suspension so choppy I don't think I'd dare take it above 70 mph unless on some very smooth tarmac.

Overall impression: Compared to my 2011 LEAF SL; as mentioned above... un-refined. And I think of my LEAF as an "econobox".

I drove the Rav4EV for 2 days and maybe my memory is hazy but I thought it had slightly better accel. Dunno how Tony managed to get dusted twice but I guess the SparkEV does win that quickness contest.

Acceleration, compared to my Tesla S85... puhleeze. The S85 induces mild neck strain from 0-50; The P85 provides neck trauma.
The SparkEV didn't come close in my test drive. Although next week I'll do a back to back with the Fiat 500e and the SparkEV and include some freeway time for a better comparison.

I don't think I'll be a SparkEV leaser/buyer but I'm happy to see so many more options out there (thank you CARB).
Waiting on the i3.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I test drove a SparkEV over the weekend.

Notes:
The Chevy dealer had 3 SparkEVs. I asked the first salesman I found about one in front and he said "how about a test drive?" No, drivers license check and exchange of all manner of personal info that many test drives require. Nice.

It's not as small inside as it seems from the outside but still seems like a car I wouldn't want to drive more than 20 miles at a time.

Jumped in, he said I was really gonna love how quick this thing is "over 440 lbs of torque", etc.
Applied "Sport Mode". At the first stop light with a clear road in front, I jumped on it at the green... sprightly acceleration, only a notch up from the LEAF from 0-30.
Front tires slipped quite a bit but no smoke.

Then a few blocks away at a wide thoroughfare (50 MPH), I jumped on it again and took it up to 55MPH. It's got legs above 50 it seems but the wheel base is so short and the suspension so choppy I don't think I'd dare take it above 70 mph unless on some very smooth tarmac.

Overall impression: Compared to my 2011 LEAF SL; as mentioned above... un-refined. And I think of my LEAF as an "econobox".

I drove the Rav4EV for 2 days and maybe my memory is hazy but I thought it had slightly better accel. Dunno how Tony managed to get dusted twice but I guess the SparkEV does win that quickness contest.

Acceleration, compared to my Tesla S85... puhleeze. The S85 induces mild neck strain from 0-50; The P85 provides neck trauma.
The SparkEV didn't come close in my test drive. Although next week I'll do a back to back with the Fiat 500e and the SparkEV and include some freeway time for a better comparison.

I don't think I'll be a SparkEV leaser/buyer but I'm happy to see so many more options out there (thank you CARB).
Waiting on the i3.

gee; with your forum name, i figured you were a shoe in! oh well. thanks for the review

 

[blackmamba]

I test drove a SparkEV over the weekend.

..... a few blocks away at a wide thoroughfare (50 MPH), I jumped on it again and took it up to 55MPH. It's got legs above 50 it seems............

--------

Acceleration, compared to my Tesla S85... puhleeze. The S85 induces mild neck strain from 0-50; The P85 provides neck trauma.
The SparkEV didn't come close in my test drive.

Maybe your Tesla is great from 0 to 50, but I don't think you are convinced it could beat the Spark if both were even up and accelerating from 50 to, say, 90. And keep in mind the Spark costs 1/4 what your Tesla costs, and is being promoted as a city car, so be fair in your judgement.

 

[cwerdna]

Surprised to see a billboard for the Chevy Spark a couple of days ago. For those in the San Fernando Valley (L.A. area), it is on the west side of Canoga Avenue a couple of blocks south of Sherman way.

You sure it was for the Spark EV and not the ICE Spark?

 

[RonDawg]

Why are people not thinking more globally with the SPARK-EV? Other countries sure don't mind smaller cars and find them a necessity in some cases (i.e. parking, city street size, etc, etc).

In a country where one of the best-selling, if not THE best-selling vehicles is a full-size pickup truck, and where people will gladly buy SUVs despite fuel inching upward in price, do you really need to ask this question?

Some folks also don't feel safe in a small car for the above reason.

Even Europe is starting to think more like us, despite fuel prices that are at least double ours. Small crossover SUVs are becoming more popular over there. The Nissan Qashqai is supposedly the UK's 6th best-selling car.

 

[Stoaty]

Surprised to see a billboard for the Chevy Spark a couple of days ago. For those in the San Fernando Valley (L.A. area), it is on the west side of Canoga Avenue a couple of blocks south of Sherman way.

You sure it was for the Spark EV and not the ICE Spark?

Yes, I was so surprised I triple checked it. Definitely for the EV version only.