Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[evnow]

http://www.plugincars.com/are-journalists-trying-kill-electric-car-126612.html

Are Journalists Trying to Kill the Electric Car?

Do you think that's a leap? Considering that 'journalism' has become more marketing than news, and considering that upsetting advertisers isn't a good plan, does anyone think that MSM will be cheering for a disruptive technology until well after everyone else stops thinking it's disruptive tech?

All we have to do is keep on keeping on, and keep on ignoring the ...how can I put this nicely...Idiots... and we'll get there just fine. :lol:

My opinion is that - it depends. "Journalists" in general are looking for "stories". Usually the story about new technologies takes one of 2 forms
- The new fangled thing is a dud
- This is the next big thing

"Memes" tend to develop around that. Journalists tend to "pile on" once the meme develops.

The memes might also develop around 'this thing is pushed by xyz and is not good for the "people"'. Journalists who believe EVs are pushed by Obama (even though Bush signed the tax credit into law) and look at it as a "top down" thing tend to dismiss it as a dud. I saw the same thing happen around HDTVs around '99-'00. That was also pushed by legislators to freeup the airwaves (which they wanted to auction and get some money). So, they talked about HDTVs being expensive, having very little programming etc.

But things like twitter or facebook got a lot of support since it was seen as "bottom up".

The development of memes is much more widespread in politics and the way candidates are covered. Politicians and their supporters push back very heavily against such stories by "journalists". Apparently NYT is not used to getting pushed back by such weaklings as EV supporters.

 

[thankyouOB]

My opinion is that - it depends. "Journalists" in general are looking for "stories". Usually the story about new technologies takes one of 2 forms
- The new fangled thing is a dud
- This is the next big thing

"Memes" tend to develop around that. Journalists tend to "pile on" once the meme develops.

The memes might also develop around 'this thing is pushed by xyz and is not good for the "people"'. Journalists who believe EVs are pushed by Obama (even though Bush signed the tax credit into law) and look at it as a "top down" thing tend to dismiss it as a dud. I saw the same thing happen around HDTVs around '99-'00. That was also pushed by legislators to freeup the airwaves (which they wanted to auction and get some money). So, they talked about HDTVs being expensive, having very little programming etc.

But things like twitter or facebook got a lot of support since it was seen as "bottom up".

The development of memes is much more widespread in politics and the way candidates are covered. Politicians and their supporters push back very heavily against such stories by "journalists". Apparently NYT is not used to getting pushed back by such weaklings as EV supporters.

you have some things right. but i dont think obama has anything to do with what happened with Broder. he didnt do his homework or take the assignment seriously. he didnt prepare for the assignment as he would if he were interviewing the OMB director about the BGT. He would read the BGT. He didnt read the manual. it was a fail.

Tesla failed too. They let the cards get stacked against them doing it mid-winter. they could have put off the test until the weather was better or their network was more complete. sloppy.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

"Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will"

 

[AndyH]

http://www.plugincars.com/are-journalists-trying-kill-electric-car-126612.html

Are Journalists Trying to Kill the Electric Car?

Do you think that's a leap? Considering that 'journalism' has become more marketing than news, and considering that upsetting advertisers isn't a good plan, does anyone think that MSM will be cheering for a disruptive technology until well after everyone else stops thinking it's disruptive tech?

All we have to do is keep on keeping on, and keep on ignoring the ...how can I put this nicely...Idiots... and we'll get there just fine. :lol:

My opinion is that - it depends. "Journalists" in general are looking for "stories". Usually the story about new technologies takes one of 2 forms
- The new fangled thing is a dud
- This is the next big thing

"Memes" tend to develop around that. Journalists tend to "pile on" once the meme develops.

The memes might also develop around 'this thing is pushed by xyz and is not good for the "people"'. Journalists who believe EVs are pushed by Obama (even though Bush signed the tax credit into law) and look at it as a "top down" thing tend to dismiss it as a dud. I saw the same thing happen around HDTVs around '99-'00. That was also pushed by legislators to freeup the airwaves (which they wanted to auction and get some money). So, they talked about HDTVs being expensive, having very little programming etc.

But things like twitter or facebook got a lot of support since it was seen as "bottom up".

The development of memes is much more widespread in politics and the way candidates are covered. Politicians and their supporters push back very heavily against such stories by "journalists". Apparently NYT is not used to getting pushed back by such weaklings as EV supporters.

Excellent - thanks!

It's amazing how easily we humans are sidetracked away from the facts. Talk about 'short attention span theatre' with a side of 'automatic assumptions'! :lol:

 

[evnow]

you have some things right. but i dont think obama has anything to do with what happened with Broder. he didnt do his homework or take the assignment seriously. he didnt prepare for the assignment as he would if he were interviewing the OMB director about the BGT. He would read the BGT. He didnt read the manual. it was a fail.

Tesla failed to. They let the cards get stacked against them doing it mid-winter. they could have put off the test until the weather was better or their network was more complete. sloppy.

We are trying to go beyond the "facts" that you state. Why did Broder not do his homework or take the assignment seriously ? Did he go with any pre-conceived notions ? Did he seriously try to prevent getting stranded or was his attempt half hearted ?

Most of us would try our best not to get stranded because it is a serious inconvinience. For Broder - it would be a sensation story ! That is the reason why journalists won't be like "normal" people.

In other words, if instead of Broder, Brad Berman (of Plugincars & NYT) had been driving would the outcome been different ? I bet, yes !

 

[Train]

Precisely the reason most people wouldn't take a Leaf on a long trip more than once or twice a year. Because it has a range of 70 miles.

I thought we are talking about the Model S, aren't we? moving goal posts?

Why am i feeding the troll? <slaps head>

You mentioned your Leaf, not me. I was responding to your own written statements.

 

[GRA]

<snip>
In other words, if instead of Broder, Brad Berman (of Plugincars & NYT) had been driving would the outcome been different ? I bet, yes !

Of course it would, and if Tesla is content to only sell their cars to the Brad Berman's of the world, they won't have any significant problems. But that's not who they're trying to market to.

 

[thankyouOB]

you have some things right. but i dont think obama has anything to do with what happened with Broder. he didnt do his homework or take the assignment seriously. he didnt prepare for the assignment as he would if he were interviewing the OMB director about the BGT. He would read the BGT. He didnt read the manual. it was a fail.

Tesla failed too. They let the cards get stacked against them doing it mid-winter. they could have put off the test until the weather was better or their network was more complete. sloppy.

We are trying to go beyond the "facts" that you state. Why did Broder not do his homework or take the assignment seriously ? Did he go with any pre-conceived notions ? Did he seriously try to prevent getting stranded or was his attempt half hearted ?

Most of us would try our best not to get stranded because it is a serious inconvinience. For Broder - it would be a sensation story ! That is the reason why journalists won't be like "normal" people.

In other words, if instead of Broder, Brad Berman (of Plugincars & NYT) had been driving would the outcome been different ? I bet, yes !

I doubt we can get into Broder's head. but having worked for high-end newspapers for more than 25 years, i figure i can come closer to what a serious journalist is thinking than you, albeit I am prepared to admit it is just speculation, but informed speculation and based on some things that Broder has written about the events.

I think he did not "prepare" as he would for an OMB director interview because in his mind he was trying to be like the target buyer that Tesla wants to reach with its no-compromise slogan; that is to say, not us, not the manual readers, not the EV-philes, but the guy/gal who buys the car thinking that it will be an ICE without gasoline and a luxury one to boot.
Yes, he deliberately scorned schooling himself, but it was for what he felt was a legitimate reason.

Look, Broder is as close to the real thing in journalism that you are going to get. He is old school. Someone who works hard believes in facts and reality; not spin. He is not fox news or some secret EV hater, or even some tv news talent who intersects with journalism occasionally.
I think he got it wrong and did the car a disservice, but so did Tesla PR folks in not doing their due diligence. Broder's excuse makes more sense to me than theirs.
However, I could be wrong about them. I dont know the car marketing world, but I have been in PR for 13 years, so I have some insights about how and why they failed.

 

[Zythryn]

Look, Broder is as close to the real thing in journalism that you are going to get. He is old school. Someone who works hard believes in facts and reality; not spin. ...

First, I agree Tesla made errors. However, the quoted statement of yours is where the facts that we know seem to not support your opinion.

Broder's comments about "crawling along at 45mph" and freezing as he was driving were at the very kindest, exaggerations. At the very least he was sloppy, and he certainly wasn't showing that facts are important to him.

I also can't say what was in his thoughts, but judging from his article, the words used in it, and the facts from the logs, he is sloppy and facts and reality are not important to him.

 

[thankyouOB]

Look, Broder is as close to the real thing in journalism that you are going to get. He is old school. Someone who works hard believes in facts and reality; not spin. ...

First, I agree Tesla made errors. However, the quoted statement of yours is where the facts that we know seem to not support your opinion.

Broder's comments about "crawling along at 45mph" and freezing as he was driving were at the very kindest, exaggerations. At the very least he was sloppy, and he certainly wasn't showing that facts are important to him.

I also can't say what was in his thoughts, but judging from his article, the words used in it, and the facts from the logs, he is sloppy and facts and reality are not important to him.

i dont think he was that far off on speed for someone taking notes while driving on the CONN turnpike with most cars going by him at 75mph. On the competing drive by (what was it CNN) i saw in-cabin video of the guy being passed by a yellow school bus.
Broder was cold. his description of white-knuckles was a dramatic embellishment, but it was a long drive and clearly he was not physically comfortable in a car that was traveling through a 20-degree night. i get uncomfortable in 50 degrees with no heat in SOCAL and my drive is about 35 minutes.

you can pick at those "truth/falsity" scabs if you want to, and there are a few others we can find, however the Tesla hoopla about his driving around the parking lot in circles and the power-sucking detour through Manhattan were exaggerations, as well, and they were looking AT the data from the car.
the Tesla embellishments, i agree, do not mitigate the errors by Broder.

I just dont see that it is warranted to label him an ev-hater or someone who purposefully cooked the trip. in my view, he did have assumptions, as i have outlined, which were that he was trying, as a test driver, to personify the larger Tesla target audience -- folks who might buy it thinking the car was as advertised, just like a luxury ICE but no gasoline.

 

[Zythryn]

If Tesla said the Model S will go 300 miles when driven at a steady 65 mph, what would you call that?

 

[thankyouOB]

If Tesla said the Model S will go 300 miles when driven at a steady 65 mph, what would you call that?

i am not sure what the question is or what point we are discussing.
i dont own a tesla so i dont know if that statement is accurate, an exaggeration or what. it sounds like a marketing device.

if i could buy something like that in a Tesla for 60k, i would do it (assuming 10k CA rebate and US tax credit). but otherwise,
i doubt i i will spend more than 50k on a car in what is left of my active, driving lifetime. I think the cheaper Teslas go substantially fewer miles at that speed on a charge.
to this point, i have yet to spend more than about 32k sales price, not including tax or EV benefits.

The most fabulous thing EVs have done for me is to teach me that going 70 mph is really not necessary in almost any commuting or short distance (under 60 miles) circumstance.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If Tesla said the Model S will go 300 miles when driven at a steady 65 mph, what would you call that?

a lie

 

[Zythryn]

If Tesla said the Model S will go 300 miles when driven at a steady 65 mph, what would you call that?

a lie

Thank you Dave.
Exactly, I would as well.

Thankyouob,
If Broder is old school, and values facts so much, I would expect him to give accurate information when he states information in a factual way.
He said he was driving 45. Not 'it felt like 45' or other weasel words. He stated he was shivering and his knuckles were turning white. Heater at its lowest was set to 64 and often much warmer.

Those are simply two examples. There are other things he later came clean about that came across differently than he implied in his original article.

I don't know his motives. But he was sloppy, his editor stated as much and questioned his judgment. When he, at the very least, takes subjective impressions and puts them forth as objective fact, I have to now question other so called facts that he puts forth in any articles.
Sloppy or crooked, it really doesn't matter.

 

[smkettner]

The Tesla website says 218 at 65 and the heat on in 32F temps. I would assume that would be a maximum range charging to 100%. Not a Broder charge.

http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#range

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If Tesla said the Model S will go 300 miles when driven at a steady 65 mph, what would you call that?

a lie

Thank you Dave.
Exactly, I would as well.

Thankyouob,
If Broder is old school, and values facts so much, I would expect him to give accurate information when he states information in a factual way.
He said he was driving 45. Not 'it felt like 45' or other weasel words. He stated he was shivering and his knuckles were turning white. Heater at its lowest was set to 64 and often much warmer.

Those are simply two examples. There are other things he later came clean about that came across differently than he implied in his original article.

I don't know his motives. But he was sloppy, his editor stated as much and questioned his judgment. When he, at the very least, takes subjective impressions and puts them forth as objective fact, I have to now question other so called facts that he puts forth in any articles.
Sloppy or crooked, it really doesn't matter.

well that statement would have never come from Tesla because they already stated that you could only get 300 miles if you drove 55 MPH

either way, Broder's motivation is pretty transparent to me. he did not "technically" lie. everything he stated did happen but was over emphasized to make his point.

he did not drive 45 mph and freeze most of the trip. in fact, it was only a very short part of the trip near the end when the car died but his story led us to believe it was that way MOST of the trip.

he also stated he did to test the Tesla QC network but in doing so, completely suspended EVERYTHING any driver normally considers when making a trip of that distance. so, it was reality; his reality and pretty much no one elses which is the reason why he was called out so quickly. I was discounting his story 12 hours before Musk started his tweet fest and everyone was defending not him but the NYT. but its not the first time that a publication stretched it a bit to make a point.

problem is they tried to stretch it over a topic WE know MUCH more about than they did. many think Tesla did a boo-boo by not fully instructing Broder.

i think Broder got all the info he needed and ignored it. the only underestimation anyone did was NYT thinking they could pull that story off

 

[thankyouOB]

If Tesla said the Model S will go 300 miles when driven at a steady 65 mph, what would you call that?

a lie

Thank you Dave.
Exactly, I would as well.

Thankyouob,
If Broder is old school, and values facts so much, I would expect him to give accurate information when he states information in a factual way.
He said he was driving 45. Not 'it felt like 45' or other weasel words. He stated he was shivering and his knuckles were turning white. Heater at its lowest was set to 64 and often much warmer.

Those are simply two examples. There are other things he later came clean about that came across differently than he implied in his original article.

I don't know his motives. But he was sloppy, his editor stated as much and questioned his judgment. When he, at the very least, takes subjective impressions and puts them forth as objective fact, I have to now question other so called facts that he puts forth in any articles.
Sloppy or crooked, it really doesn't matter.

she is not his editor.
this, in part, is what she actually said:
... I do not believe Mr. Broder hoped the drive would end badly. I am convinced that he took on the test drive in good faith, and told the story as he experienced it.

Did he use good judgment along the way? Not especially. In particular, decisions he made at a crucial juncture – when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn., a stop forced by the unexpected loss of charge overnight – were certainly instrumental in this saga’s high-drama ending.

In addition, Mr. Broder left himself open to valid criticism by taking what seem to be casual and imprecise notes along the journey, unaware that his every move was being monitored. A little red notebook in the front seat is no match for digitally recorded driving logs, which Mr. Musk has used, in the most damaging (and sometimes quite misleading) ways possible, as he defended his vehicle’s reputation....

the rest i have already discussed at length and several times on this string, going back weeks. i have already called his work on this assignment sloppy, and that he didnt take it seriously, and that he exaggerated (i dont think it was purposeful) or was overly dramatic about his speed and how cold he felt.

-----------------
and here is what i said a month ago, on the first day this string began:
the tit for tat back and forth is not really edifying, and it will be impossible to tell where the truth is.
i doubt this NYT reporter set out to screw tesla.
i think tesla could have set up the test better.
the reporter could have done a more workmanlike job of testing the car and charger string, by actually behaving like a real tesla owner trying to get where he was going .

what really matters to me is that Tesla is playing the wrong game here. EVs strengths are not long-distance drives in the cold.
if folks here wanted to devise a harder hurdle, could we?
there are lots of reasons to drive EVs; they reduce air pollution, cut greenhouse gas emissions and reduce dependence on petroleum.
we all know that they work and work well. they are fun and efficient, and save money on fuel.
the reality is that we need a real alternative to petroleum-powered personal transportation. saying you could spend the same money for a bmw or lexus and get better results, with money left over for gasoline, is not recognizing that we have a real problem with melting polar ice caps, extreme weather, rising sea levels, not to mention melanoma, all of which can be traced to our addiction for fossil fuel use.

_________________

 

[KevinSharpe]

and here is what i said a month ago, on the first day this string began:
the tit for tat back and forth is not really edifying, and it will be impossible to tell where the truth is.
i doubt this NYT reporter set out to screw tesla.
i think tesla could have set up the test better.
the reporter could have done a more workmanlike job of testing the car and charger string, by actually behaving like a real tesla owner trying to get where he was going .

what really matters to me is that Tesla is playing the wrong game here. EVs strengths are not long-distance drives in the cold.
if folks here wanted to devise a harder hurdle, could we?
there are lots of reasons to drive EVs; they reduce air pollution, cut greenhouse gas emissions and reduce dependence on petroleum.
we all know that they work and work well. they are fun and efficient, and save money on fuel.
the reality is that we need a real alternative to petroleum-powered personal transportation. saying you could spend the same money for a bmw or lexus and get better results, with money left over for gasoline, is not recognizing that we have a real problem with melting polar ice caps, extreme weather, rising sea levels, not to mention melanoma, all of which can be traced to our addiction for fossil fuel use.

+1

 

[SanDust]

she is not his editor.
this, in part, is what she actually said:
... I do not believe Mr. Broder hoped the drive would end badly. I am convinced that he took on the test drive in good faith, and told the story as he experienced it.

Did he use good judgment along the way? Not especially. In particular, decisions he made at a crucial juncture – when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn., a stop forced by the unexpected loss of charge overnight – were certainly instrumental in this saga’s high-drama ending.

In addition, Mr. Broder left himself open to valid criticism by taking what seem to be casual and imprecise notes along the journey, unaware that his every move was being monitored. A little red notebook in the front seat is no match for digitally recorded driving logs, which Mr. Musk has used, in the most damaging (and sometimes quite misleading) ways possible, as he defended his vehicle’s reputation....

the rest i have already discussed at length and several times on this string, going back weeks. i have already called his work on this assignment sloppy, and that he didnt take it seriously, and that he exaggerated (i dont think it was purposeful) or was overly dramatic about his speed and how cold he felt.

+2. No need for tin foil hats and conspiracy theories.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I will remind you and others that the level of defensiveness about this issue relates to the fact that Top Gear got busted staging out of charge events on both the Tesla Roadster and the Nissan Leaf and that combined with Broder's previous negative stance towards EV's and all his foibles, it looks an awful lot like he was at least trying not very hard, to succeed, in order to get a sensationalized story, and it worked, and backfired. no foil hats or conspiracy theorizing required but extreme skepticism warranted.

+2. No need for tin foil hats and conspiracy theories.