Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[KevinSharpe]

I think you meant to say...

no, please do not put words in my mouth, thank you!

 

[SanDust]

Also the comment on Model S being a toy is very insulting to the thousands that happily use it everyday just like any other car.

The thread very much reminds me of the right wing web sites which predicted a sweeping Romney victory last November. Lots of out of touch folks creating an echo chamber by telling each other that Romney was far ahead. When confronted with polls or analysis based on those polls, such as you'd find at 538 in the New York Times, the polls were dismissed as being "skewed" by liberal bias, a viewpoint given voice by the infamous web site unskewedpolls.com. Same thing is happening here. Everyone wants to believe that EVs are superior vehicles in every way, so they keep telling each other that. Then, when the NY Times writes an article saying they're not, the problem is written off as bias on the part of the journalist writing the article and the NY Times. All done with a measure of vitriol aimed at anyone with the temerity to point out that the article is essentially correct.

When Henry Blodget says that the Model S is a toy and a curiosity, he's not trying to insult anyone, nor is he being anti-EV. He's just making a factual observation that, just as when someone pays $750 for a Mountblanc pen that has all the functionality of a $.29 BIC, when someone buys a $100,000 Model S that doesn't have the utility of a $15,000 Honda Fit, that person is not after functionality. They're displaying their wealth by buying a very expensive toy (I think "gasless" actually made this point, albeit inadvertently). Likewise, when Chelsea Sexton says the Model S is ill suited for long distance driving, she's not trying to insult anyone, nor is she being anit-EV. She's just making a factual observation that limited range and long recharging times aren't convenient when you're travelling long distances.

Now there isn't anything wrong per se with living in a echo chamber. Denial is a primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism. The problem is that you can't live there forever. Sooner or later there is an election or, in the case of EVs, monthly sales numbers. So far the sales numbers have been very disappointing. That can't be denied. Rather than continuing to shoot the messenger, it would be more productive to engage the real world.

 

[Nubo]

...Now there isn't anything wrong per se with living in a echo chamber. Denial is a primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism. The problem is that you can't live there forever...

There is a difference between making a point, and being rudely dismissive. I can drive a LEAF and find it meets enough of my needs to be worth the price. To admonish me not to "pretend", or insist I'm deliberately insulating myself inside an "echo chamber" is presumptuous and an attempt at argument by belittlement.

It's one thing to argue points of fact. But do please spare us the psychoanalysis. It's just rude beyond belief. In fact, welcome to my ignore list while I exercise my primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism.

 

[davewill]

What makes you think I'm only trying to obtain the logs via open forums? I could say the same thing about your "endless monologue" but I choose to be more courteous than that.

It's still just a fishing expedition and you have no standing, and no cause.

 

[thankyouOB]

It's one thing to argue points of fact. But do please spare us the psychoanalysis. It's just rude beyond belief. In fact, welcome to my ignore list while I exercise my primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism.

it is hard to really piss off Nubo.
add me to those who wonder why you bother. do you own an EV or just troll at an EV site?

 

[jackal]

...Now there isn't anything wrong per se with living in a echo chamber. Denial is a primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism. The problem is that you can't live there forever...

There is a difference between making a point, and being rudely dismissive. I can drive a LEAF and find it meets enough of my needs to be worth the price. To admonish me not to "pretend", or insist I'm deliberately insulating myself inside an "echo chamber" is presumptuous and an attempt at argument by belittlement.

It's one thing to argue points of fact. But do please spare us the psychoanalysis. It's just rude beyond belief. In fact, welcome to my ignore list while I exercise my primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism.

+1

 

[Train]

Sandust,

You've been ignored! Congratulations!



I think I'm up to 20 or so...

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

nicely put!

It will only become "affordable for the masses" if we hit high volume and that can only happen if people trust the technology. Mr Musk's attempt to undermine the credibility of the NYT simply leaves doubt in the minds of the 'masses' which IMO is bad news for anyone interested in EV adoption.

I think you meant to say that, "Broader's attempt to purposefully flat-bed the Model-S, aka low-grade ethics violation, simply leaves doubt in the minds of the 'masses' which IMO is bad news for anyone who is concerned on our over-reliance on oil".

BTW, the real or apparent range loss on overnight soak is a well known issue for most Tesla owners and Tesla engineers itself. But that only means you need to either plug it in overnight or charge the next day morning to get enough range. Not necessarily drive like an idiot without enough gas in the tank. And believe me it is a temporary issue that will be resolved.

Also the comment on Model S being a toy is very insulting to the thousands that happily use it everyday just like any other car.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

nothing but opinion stated as fact. I've got a proposition for you. go have a test drive in a fully charged Tesla Model S and then you can actually talk from experience. IMHO, Broder was so blown away by the S that he had to ignore what an amazing car it is and center his argument against it on a lack of fueling and trying to rely on distance projection, something no car is accurate with. It's like trying to take down an ICE vehicle's reliability based on the traffic prediction on google maps... no one can tell the future of where and how you will drive, or what other cars are going to do.

Also the comment on Model S being a toy is very insulting to the thousands that happily use it everyday just like any other car.

The thread very much reminds me of the right wing web sites which predicted a sweeping Romney victory last November. Lots of out of touch folks creating an echo chamber by telling each other that Romney was far ahead. When confronted with polls or analysis based on those polls, such as you'd find at 538 in the New York Times, the polls were dismissed as being "skewed" by liberal bias, a viewpoint given voice by the infamous web site unskewedpolls.com. Same thing is happening here. Everyone wants to believe that EVs are superior vehicles in every way, so they keep telling each other that. Then, when the NY Times writes an article saying they're not, the problem is written off as bias on the part of the journalist writing the article and the NY Times. All done with a measure of vitriol aimed at anyone with the temerity to point out that the article is essentially correct.

When Henry Blodget says that the Model S is a toy and a curiosity, he's not trying to insult anyone, nor is he being anti-EV. He's just making a factual observation that, just as when someone pays $750 for a Mountblanc pen that has all the functionality of a $.29 BIC, when someone buys a $100,000 Model S that doesn't have the utility of a $15,000 Honda Fit, that person is not after functionality. They're displaying their wealth by buying a very expensive toy (I think "gasless" actually made this point, albeit inadvertently). Likewise, when Chelsea Sexton says the Model S is ill suited for long distance driving, she's not trying to insult anyone, nor is she being anit-EV. She's just making a factual observation that limited range and long recharging times aren't convenient when you're travelling long distances.

Now there isn't anything wrong per se with living in a echo chamber. Denial is a primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism. The problem is that you can't live there forever. Sooner or later there is an election or, in the case of EVs, monthly sales numbers. So far the sales numbers have been very disappointing. That can't be denied. Rather than continuing to shoot the messenger, it would be more productive to engage the real world.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

+1

...Now there isn't anything wrong per se with living in a echo chamber. Denial is a primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism. The problem is that you can't live there forever...

There is a difference between making a point, and being rudely dismissive. I can drive a LEAF and find it meets enough of my needs to be worth the price. To admonish me not to "pretend", or insist I'm deliberately insulating myself inside an "echo chamber" is presumptuous and an attempt at argument by belittlement.

It's one thing to argue points of fact. But do please spare us the psychoanalysis. It's just rude beyond belief. In fact, welcome to my ignore list while I exercise my primitive but highly effective psychological defense mechanism.

 

[evnow]

The thread very much reminds me of the right wing web sites which predicted a sweeping Romney victory last November. Lots of out of touch folks creating an echo chamber by telling each other that Romney was far ahead. When confronted with polls or analysis based on those polls, such as you'd find at 538 in the New York Times, the polls were dismissed as being "skewed" by liberal bias, a viewpoint given voice by the infamous web site unskewedpolls.com. Same thing is happening here. Everyone wants to believe that EVs are superior vehicles in every way, so they keep telling each other that. Then, when the NY Times writes an article saying they're not, the problem is written off as bias on the part of the journalist writing the article and the NY Times. All done with a measure of vitriol aimed at anyone with the temerity to point out that the article is essentially correct.

Hey, I already used this comparison earlier.

People who believe the "pundits" are like the Romney supporters. We, OTOH, believe in data - like Nate supporters.

 

[AndyH]

look, i've been told my whole life that none of this was possible, so excuse me while I revel a bit in the fact that it is possible and will eventually be affordable for the masses!

It will only become "affordable for the masses" if we hit high volume and that can only happen if people trust the technology. Mr Musk's attempt to undermine the credibility of the NYT simply leaves doubt in the minds of the 'masses' which IMO is bad news for anyone interested in EV adoption.

In the nicest sort of way: Rubbish.

The 'masses' don't have to "trust" any technology - most don't have a CLUE that there's a computer in their microwave. They don't need to know and the don't care. What they DO care about is that it'll cook their popcorn when they press the 'popcorn' button.

Same for cars. Most don't have any idea how large their gas tank is or how far that amount of fuel is supposed to take them winter or summer. They simply drive until the light comes on, then they look for a fuel station.

These same folks probably have a cell phone. They don't care about the battery in the phone or how long they can talk - they simply plug the thing in at night, and at other times as required.

Getting to "EV Critical Mass" is going to be difficult enough without pompous "it must happen this way" hogwash.

 

[Nubo]

These same folks probably have a cell phone. They don't care about the battery in the phone or how long they can talk - they simply plug the thing in at night, and at other times as required.

To be fair, at one time everyone cared very much about talk time, because it was pretty ephemeral. Batteries did get better, but iirc the real disruptive technology was when digital packet radio replaced analog carrier and tremendously reduced the power requirement. I was reminded of this just a few years back when my work cell suddenly started devouring the battery -- we had dropped out of coverage and it had fallen back on an analog connection.

But you're right -- when it's enough for your day, it's enough. I think we're there already for lots of folks. It works for me and I don't consider my circumstances unique or unusual at all. It will be interesting to see how the technology curve and the adoption curve play out in relation to each other.

 

[thankyouOB]

But you're right -- when it's enough for your day, it's enough. I think we're there already for lots of folks. It works for me and I don't consider my circumstances unique or unusual at all. It will be interesting to see how the technology curve and the adoption curve play out in relation to each other.

Someone should put this up in BRONZE!

 

[nosuchthing]

I still don't get why wasn't Broder told by the overseers to charge the car night. Particularly in super cold winter weather. I mean, this is EV 101, folks! Was he ignorant or stupid/naive?

 

[KevinSharpe]

Was he ignorant or stupid/naive?

I suspect he was ignorant of this requirement on the Model S.

To be fair to Mr Broder I travel extensively in my Tesla Roadster and I only plug in overnight when I need the extra range the following day. I also have a friend who drives a Leaf and only charges once a week because they do so few miles. IMO the plug in overnight requirement is new with the Model S and presumably only with some firmware revisions.

 

[KevinSharpe]

The 'masses' don't have to "trust" any technology - most don't have a CLUE that there's a computer in their microwave. They don't need to know and the don't care. What they DO care about is that it'll cook their popcorn when they press the 'popcorn' button.

I'm confused... surely any consumer pressing the 'popcorn' button on the microwave has to trust the technology will cook the popcorn and not clean the dishes?

IMO most car drivers expect to park overnight and have the same range in the morning without the requirement to find an electrical power supply.

 

[mkjayakumar]

IMO most car drivers expect to park overnight and have the same range in the morning without the requirement to find an electrical power supply.

IMO most car drivers expect to drive to the gas station, pump gas and change engine oil every 6 months. That is a key part of their driving 'experience' today. Once that changes with an EV it is only fair to expect a few more changes in their experience.

 

[KevinSharpe]

Once that changes with an EV it is only fair to expect a few more changes in their experience.

But their is no requirement for me to plug in my Tesla Roadster every night or my friends Leaf. Are you saying this is only true for the Model S and Mr Broder should have known that?

 

[AndyH]

Once that changes with an EV it is only fair to expect a few more changes in their experience.

But their is no requirement for me to plug in my Tesla Roadster every night or my friends Leaf. Are you saying this is only true for the Model S and Mr Broder should have known that?

What part of "fill it up when it needs" is so difficult for you to understand?

I appreciate that you have your opinions, Kevin, and you're certainly welcome to them - but it's pretty clear that you're almost tap dancing here. When we notice that the tires need air, we fill them. When we notice that the washer fluid is low (or out...) we fill the bottle. When we notice that our right ear is cold we close the window. This is NOT rocket science - but it does require at some point that we become aware.

As for range - I grew up in a part of the country where one needed to plug their ICE in overnight so it would start in the morning. No, the fuel level didn't drop overnight - but winter gas has less energy, and the car's efficiency really tanks - so we did expect to have about half normal range. Likewise, the folks in central Alaska that let their equipment idle all night to keep it from freezing DO expect to have lost range overnight.

So no - plugging in at night, losing range in the winter, and losing range overnight are NOT unique to EVs.