Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[RegGuheert]

So no - plugging in at night, losing range in the winter, and losing range overnight are NOT unique to EVs.

I doubt that *any* owners of gasoline-powered sedans in CT plug in their cars overnight.

 

[AndyH]

So no - plugging in at night, losing range in the winter, and losing range overnight are NOT unique to EVs.

I doubt that *any* owners of gasoline-powered sedans in CT plug in their cars overnight.

The world does not end at the CT border. I grew up in far northern Michigan and have not only used engine heaters (including while at the grocery store...) but in days before synthetic oil have slid pans with charcoal under engines...

Canada, Michigan, upstate NY, Wisconsin, MN, the Dakotas... Scandanavia...etc.
http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2261597/block-heater-needed

The farther north in Minnesota you get the more block heaters are used and there are outlets at offices and hotels to plug in.

http://www.prairiepublic.org/radio/dakota-datebook?post=6116

On November 8th, 1949, Andy received a patent on the “Freeman Electric Internal-Combustion Engine Head Bolt Heater” and went into production in East Grand Forks. Four years later, the factory was turning out about 240,000 units for distribution in 28 states.

None of these are EVs...

Why plug-in the ICE? Because it's easier than:

“I remember how the mailman at Upham used to keep his car running,” he said. “He drained the oil out every night. He kept it warm in the house and put it back in the car in the morning. Some people would shovel coals out of the furnace and carry them out to put under the car to heat the engine. Others used teakettles of hot water. They would pour the water over the intake manifold.

 

[abasile]

I doubt that *any* owners of gasoline-powered sedans in CT plug in their cars overnight.

I agree, and I don't blame Mr. Broder for not plugging in the vehicle overnight, as it indicated ample range for his return to the CT Supercharger. On this particular point I think he's been unfairly criticized. It appears to me that Tesla, as impressive as their work has been, still has some cold weather issues to work through. I'm optimistic that Tesla will rise to the occasion.

The biggest issue I have with Mr. Broder's test drive is that he left a L2 charging dock when it should have been blindingly obvious that he would not have enough charge to return to the Supercharger. Any EV owner with half a brain would verify that they have adequate charge before moving on. In the real world, we do our best to avoid needing a tow. (With 31K miles on our limited-range LEAF, no one in our family has ever run out of charge.) But photos of expensive EVs on flatbed tow trucks do sell more newspapers.

 

[gbarry42]

To be fair to Mr Broder I travel extensively in my Tesla Roadster and I only plug in overnight when I need the extra range the following day. I also have a friend who drives a Leaf and only charges once a week because they do so few miles. IMO the plug in overnight requirement is new with the Model S and presumably only with some firmware revisions.

I don't expect my battery level to drop overnight, but that's because I drive a LEAF. So I didn't know what to think when some unfortunate owner parked his Roadster in a low state of charge for several weeks and ruined the battery. But instead of guessing, I headed over to the Tesla forum and read about it. Needless to say, everyone had plenty to say about that. And I learned that the TMS uses a non-trivial amount of power to keep the battery at optimum temperatures. I can't imagine the Model S would be much different in this respect. Given all the hoopla that arises every time there's some story about running out of juice, I'd hope that Tesla has worked on the firmware to cut the surprise factor as much as possible. I'm surprised it's still an issue. Still, you can't ignore the necessities of battery maintenance, and power is still required to do that.

From what I've read, the "keep it plugged in whenever you're not using it" directive started with the Roadster. It's great advice for anyone who has no idea how the car works. For the rest, common sense can be used. If you have a 25 mile trip tomorrow, and 100 miles on the DTE, you can pretty much assume it will be fine on its own. But if it says 50, and you have a 48 mile trip planned, you'd better be darned sure you know all the conditions and exceptions that will affect it, or you may end up doing some unplanned walking.

 

[gbarry42]

This, by the way, is why I don't think creating an electric charging infrastructure is all that impossible.

 

[TomT]

Remember that electric block heaters really don't pull all that much. A few hundred watts at most...

This, by the way, is why I don't think creating an electric charging infrastructure is all that impossible.

 

[smkettner]

This, by the way, is why I don't think creating an electric charging infrastructure is all that impossible.

Do they charge by the hour on that?

Can Tesla turn the amps down to 350 watts?

 

[WetEV]

Remember that electric block heaters really don't pull all that much. A few hundred watts at most...

Many years ago, I had a pickup with an electric "block heater", it drew 450W. Was spliced into the cooling system. Made a sound like a boiling kettle. It was a pleasure then to go out to the pickup on a -35 (F? ,C? same thing) day, it would start right up, and the air coming out of the defrost vent would feel warm.

The Leaf reminds me of that old thing on cold mornings. Except I plug the Leaf in more often.

 

[AndyH]

This, by the way, is why I don't think creating an electric charging infrastructure is all that impossible.

Do they charge by the hour on that?

Can Tesla turn the amps down to 350 watts?

The places I've used in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota weren't as structured as the photos. Imagine pulling into a grocery store parking lot and simply seeing a steel cable (pulled between two light poles) between the parking spaces. Dangling from the cable, one for each pair of spaces, is a foot or two of extension cord. There's no metering, no charge. Grocery stores, motels, business offices, homes, outside apartments, in some areas on the sidewalks for street-side parking. Some cars and trucks have block heaters (water heaters), while others include oil pan heaters and starter-battery blanket heaters.

Far northern Michigan is sheltered by Lake Superior so normally stays a bit warmer. But once one gets west to Duluth, the full force of cold, dry Arctic air comes running across the border in the winter. Minus 40 is chilly - even for an ICE.

It's VERY possible to create the electric infrastructure - no doubt! For some reason, politicians aren't up in arms about all the 'free' electricity for heaters...

Tesla wouldn't have to turn the charge down to 350W - heater lines are normally on their own 15 or 20A circuits as heaters can pull up to 15A...

 

[KevinSharpe]

I doubt that *any* owners of gasoline-powered sedans in CT plug in their cars overnight.

I agree, and I don't blame Mr. Broder for not plugging in the vehicle overnight, as it indicated ample range for his return to the CT Supercharger. On this particular point I think he's been unfairly criticized. It appears to me that Tesla, as impressive as their work has been, still has some cold weather issues to work through. I'm optimistic that Tesla will rise to the occasion.

Agreed, and I'm sure Tesla are working hard on this issue and will fix it much like the early issues we had with the Roadster.

 

[smkettner]

And who pays for all those 15a outlets to go nowhere?
At least with an EV something is made of it.

So it is OK to be free if wasted but if you might get some use (miles) out of plugging in we must pay :roll:

Too bad Broder did not visit an even colder climate where plugging in is "normal" and expected.

 

[KevinSharpe]

From what I've read, the "keep it plugged in whenever you're not using it" directive started with the Roadster. It's great advice for anyone who has no idea how the car works. For the rest, common sense can be used. If you have a 25 mile trip tomorrow, and 100 miles on the DTE, you can pretty much assume it will be fine on its own. But if it says 50, and you have a 48 mile trip planned, you'd better be darned sure you know all the conditions and exceptions that will affect it, or you may end up doing some unplanned walking.

My Roadster owners manual says "when fully charged, the battery's charge level can drop as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first week. When the battery's charge level falls below 50%, the rate of decline slows to approximately 5% per week".

Assuming Mr Broder was given similar advice by Tesla for the Model S then he had sufficient range to undertake the journey to Milford, CT in the morning (46 miles) without plugging in overnight (when he parked he had 82 miles). What is unprecedented is the 57 mile range 'lost' overnight by the Model S which IMO put Mr Broder and Tesla into a tail spin from which they did not recover.

FYI this is a live issue for Model S owners on TMC - "This really needs to be resolved by Tesla... it's like having an ICE car with a leaky gas tank."

 

[surfingslovak]

I'm sorry, but the SOC/estimated-range data published by Tesla clearly shows that he very likely would have made it. I've posted this multiple times now. Look at it.

O.K. I'll accept that Broder possibly could have driven 46 miles starting from a cold battery at 10F ambient temperature with 30% SOC since he drove 51 miles at ~20F with a conditioned battery starting from 28% SOC. It's also possible that he would have gotten stranded on the side of the road.

It's too bad there is not an SOC meter in the Model S for the driver to see.

There is an interesting article from a relatively new Model S owner on GCR. Please be sure to read the comments section as well, if possible.

Life With 2013 Tesla Model S: 'Vampire' Thirst For Electricity At Night?

 

[DaveEV]

There is an interesting article from a relatively new Model S owner on GCR. Please be sure to read the comments section as well, if possible.

Life With 2013 Tesla Model S: 'Vampire' Thirst For Electricity At Night?

Great article. The 3-5 kWh / day the author is seeing has been corroborated by at least a few others on TMC. Interesting that the Tesla hotline rep said that the car would not use thermal management on the pack when the car is not on or charging - at least for heating. I have to think there is some minimum temperature at which point the car will heat the pack a bit like the LEAF - and for sure it seems wise to cool the pack if the pack is over a certain SOC like the Volt (and Roadster) does.

 

[surfingslovak]

I have to think there is some minimum temperature at which point the car will heat the pack a bit like the LEAF - and for sure it seems wise to cool the pack if the pack is over a certain SOC like the Volt (and Roadster) does.

Yes, agreed. I wish EV manufacturers would release more official data about their batteries and the TMS (if any). The driver community could benefit a lot from that type of disclosure.

 

[KevinSharpe]

I wish EV manufacturers would release more official data about their batteries and the TMS (if any).

Agreed... I also think that projects like OVMS will transform what we know about our cars regardless of what the OEM's want to tell us.