Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[smkettner]

Broder said he did not fully charge the vehicle. No log needed.
Broder said he left the L2 charging location before enough range was indicated. No log needed.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

edited

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Broder said he did not fully charge the vehicle. No log needed.
Broder said he left the L2 charging location before enough range was indicated. No log needed.

well that list is barely a start

Broder did not drive slow

Broder did not freeze or even come close. 60 whatever degrees when you are supposedly acclimated to NE weather is not "freezing"

i mean how much evidence does one need? the graphs are incomplete but having 5% of a picture blurred does not make the picture unintelligible to most now does it?

now, we have to admit that Tesla only showed us what it wanted to show us and that "5%" could be the smoking gun but then again, we have to weigh that smoking gun with other evidence presented and its a bit hard to ignore the dozen successful parallel trips made for some but not for me.

 

[KevinSharpe]

now, we have to admit that Tesla only showed us what it wanted to show us and that "5%" could be the smoking gun but then again, we have to weigh that smoking gun with other evidence presented and its a bit hard to ignore the dozen successful parallel trips made for some but not for me.

I fully accept you are happy with the evidence that Tesla decided to give you. However, is it not perfectly reasonable for me to question their interpretation of the cars logs and ask for the raw data to reach my own conclusions? Given Mr Musk claimed it cost Tesla hundreds of orders and $100M I would like to make up my own mind before investing in the company, buying another Tesla, etc.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

now, we have to admit that Tesla only showed us what it wanted to show us and that "5%" could be the smoking gun but then again, we have to weigh that smoking gun with other evidence presented and its a bit hard to ignore the dozen successful parallel trips made for some but not for me.

I fully accept you are happy with the evidence that Tesla decided to give you. However, is it not perfectly reasonable for me to question their interpretation of the cars logs and ask for the raw data to reach my own conclusions? Given Mr Musk claimed it cost Tesla hundreds of orders and $100M I would like to make up my own mind before investing in the company, buying another Tesla, etc.

you know as well as i do that those are only projections and if projections were true, we would all be billionaires.

and yes you should make up your own mind when making your next purchase decision but i would find it very confusing to see you or anyone else using this article for any real basis in your decision making processes

 

[Nubo]

...I'm glad you like your toy. Have fun with it. But don't pretend it's anything but a toy....

I think we all understand your dismissive position. What I don't understand is your persistence here on a BEV owners board. You are here to endlessly explain to us how we're all deluded? My God, man! What is your motivation? There are plenty of pursuits which I think are not worthwhile. But I don't gravitate to groups that are centered around those pursuits so that I can continually pee in their cornflakes.

Nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion. But one does get tired of being poked with the same crooked stick after awhile. Why not leave us to our "toys"? I "pretended" to drive to work today, and I'll "pretend" to drive past the gas stations on my way home. A growing number of Tesla drivers have "pretended" to survive Broder's Folly without running out of power. Thank you very much.

 

[davewill]

... However, is it not perfectly reasonable for me to question their interpretation of the cars logs and ask for the raw data to reach my own conclusions? ...

No, I don't think it is. If you were the NY Times, and had reason to suspect they weren't genuine, then yes, but not as a third party who has no evidence that they might be faked. The people who are harping on getting raw logs just sound like they're grasping for straws...and that's amazing consider how whiny the Broder CT people sound.

 

[KevinSharpe]

and yes you should make up your own mind when making your next purchase decision but i would find it very confusing to see you or anyone else using this article for any real basis in your decision making processes

I think you are missing the point... it's not important whether I trust Mr Broder but whether I trust Mr Musk. Today I'm finding it difficult to trust Mr Musk because of the unanswered questions his stance has left me with regarding the Model S performance in cold weather.

 

[KevinSharpe]

The people who are harping on getting raw logs just sound like they're grasping for straws

No grasping at straws here... I simply want to trust Tesla... I appreciate the fact that you are happy to accept Tesla's interpretation of the logs... why not humour me and allow me to make up my own mind using the raw data? I can't see how that hurts your position or undermines your case in any way.

 

[davewill]

The people who are harping on getting raw logs just sound like they're grasping for straws

No grasping at straws here... I simply want to trust Tesla... I appreciate the fact that you are happy to accept Tesla's interpretation of the logs... why not humour me and allow me to make up my own mind using the raw data? I can't see how that hurts your position or undermines your case in any way.

Because no one here has the raw data to give you (even if we thought you were worthy, which I don't) and Tesla isn't even hearing the droning on and on about it. The endless monologue on the subject just clogs the board.

This whole "The must be hiding something if they won't release the raw logs!" reminds me of the endless chatter about Obama's birth certificate.

 

[Luft]

...I'm glad you like your toy. Have fun with it. But don't pretend it's anything but a toy....

I think we all understand your dismissive position. What I don't understand is your persistence here on a BEV owners board. You are here to endlessly explain to us how we're all deluded? My God, man! What is your motivation? There are plenty of pursuits which I think are not worthwhile. But I don't gravitate to groups that are centered around those pursuits so that I can continually pee in their cornflakes.

Nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion. But one does get tired of being poked with the same crooked stick after awhile. Why not leave us to our "toys"? I "pretended" to drive to work today, and I'll "pretend" to drive past the gas stations on my way home. A growing number of Tesla drivers have "pretended" to survive Broder's Folly without running out of power. Thank you very much.

There are some people who enjoy being the turd in the punch bowl and there are also corporate shills. American Indians (not sure which tribe) have a saying that applies to these people: "Their words are as dog farts; they are not to be considered."

 

[KevinSharpe]

Because no one here has the raw data to give you (even if we thought you were worthy, which I don't) and Tesla isn't even hearing the droning on and on about it. The endless monologue on the subject just clogs the board.

What makes you think I'm only trying to obtain the logs via open forums? I could say the same thing about your "endless monologue" but I choose to be more courteous than that.

 

[jackal]

This whole "The must be hiding something if they won't release the raw logs!" reminds me of the endless chatter about Obama's birth certificate.

I am a Tesla fan. However, I think there's nothing wrong with Kevin's position with regards to the logs.

I think the calls for for release of log is reasonable given that:
- Tesla is calling out on somebody's claims.
- Tesla themselves are calling for transparency.
- Tesla is making a huge counter claim that the article is bogus.

Using the obama analogy, the scenario would be like Obama asking Romney to release his tax return without declaring his own. When you call out on someone, others now have a claim that you do your part too.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[kentuckyleaf]

I'm glad you like your toy. Have fun with it. But don't pretend it's anything but a toy or that, as Blodget points out, customers for the Model S are "folks who can afford cool curiosities".

Said the owner of the horse stable to Henry Ford. "Dang, you can't get gas anywhere, horses eat grass!"

Since we commute every workday with our toy, and never stop by the gas station in our toy, it's a pretty awesome toy. If we were driving an ICE, it would have to get 180mpg to be cheaper to fuel than our toy. Just like stopping so your horse can eat grass, stopping for gasoline is a major compromise to us. We don't do that in our toy, ever. Our toy is nearly zero compromise to us, since we purchased it to commute. I wonder what a true zero compromise vehicle would look like? Would it be nuclear powered, hold the entire contents of my home and garage, would it have his and hers bathrooms? and would this beast find a place to park itself after it dropped me off? That would be an awesome vehicle, but somehow it still sounds like a toy. A Leaf is a tool. It is the exact correct tool for the job we intend it to fill.

 

[GRA]

Here's a new Tesla Owner's report on his first few weeks with his S-60. He's also reporting range drop when left unplugged overnight:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082867_life-with-2013-tesla-model-s-the-good-the-bad-at-600-miles/page-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone care to call him anti-EV, or that he's deliberately trying to run the battery down, or that he's just an idiot and no real owner would ever leave the car unplugged overnight?

 

[smkettner]

Here's a new Tesla Owner's report on his first few weeks with his S-60. He's also reporting range drop when left unplugged overnight:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082867_life-with-2013-tesla-model-s-the-good-the-bad-at-600-miles/page-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone care to call him anti-EV, or that he's deliberately trying to run the battery down, or that he's just an idiot and no real owner would ever leave the car unplugged overnight?

On a long trip in the bitter cold does he do a partial charge at the supercharger?
While connected to L2 for a boost dies he leave before the indicated range is adequate?

No because Broder has already shown what happens. Question is why did Broder do it after the first reports started two years ago?

 

[DaveEV]

Here's a new Tesla Owner's report on his first few weeks with his S-60. He's also reporting range drop when left unplugged overnight.

Range drop != loss of capacity. The Tesla DTE indicator is still a GOM and gets worse when the battery is cold soaked.

In fact, the latest firmware release notes indicate that it has made changes to improve the accuracy of the DTE indicator in cold weather.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13705-Firmware-4-3-basic-charging-scheduling?p=295284&viewfull=1#post295284" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Wow, really, I said all that, LOL! take a chill pill, really. Broder fell flat on his face on his own account, IMHO, you can believe what ever you like, no biggy.

Meanwhile, we purchased our last tank full of gas a month ago: "look mom, no gas!" We have a short range EV and a long range EV and they are pretty amazing and capable "toys" for a family of 4. Turns out none of our routines comes close to flat bedding the S, oh well, maybe we are the exception. Oh, and our electric bill is dropping like a rock from the "toy" solar panels on the roof, with an 8 year ROI. Gas station on the roof, now that's a nutty idea, unbelievable, yet very real.

look, i've been told my whole life that none of this was possible, so excuse me while I revel a bit in the fact that it is possible and will eventually be affordable for the masses!

No one with a decent analytic bent who isn't already satisfied that Broder screwed the pooch on this "test drive", based on his own account, will not find any level of detail of the blog release sufficient.

SOP for the Tesla S, plug it in at night, RTFM, that came in the glove box, it's short and sweet! anyone taking a test drive of a vehicle and wanting to draw broad conclusions about the state of the entire industry really needs to do their homework before embarking on the attempt.

Everyone is wrong but you. The NY Times is wrong. The Columbia School of Journalism is wrong. The Atlantic is wrong. Basically everyone who doesn't assume that Broder "faked" the story and wants actual facts supporting this allegation is wrong.

Likewise, you now seem to be saying that anyone thinking that EVs are not great everyday drivers -- including presumably VW, Audi, Toyota, and all the other car companies which are definitely not bringing out BEVs -- are wrong. BEVs are super convenient and make great everyday drivers, and the culprit for the dismal sales is not the high costs and limited range, nor, as Henry Blodget has pointed out, that a car like the Model S is a bad value proposition becasue "they're not that useful for one of the key uses that most would-be car-owners would want to use them for -- the ability to comfortably, conveniently, and reliably transport oneself from city to city without living in fear that the battery will die and leave car and driver stranded." No, the real culprit is the lame stream media which is writing nasty articles saying preposterous things, such as that a car costing $100,000 that can't go more than 200 miles and loses 65 miles of range when it's parked is, you know, inconvenient to take on trips.

I'm glad you like your toy. Have fun with it. But don't pretend it's anything but a toy or that, as Blodget points out, customers for the Model S are "folks who can afford cool curiosities".

 

[KevinSharpe]

look, i've been told my whole life that none of this was possible, so excuse me while I revel a bit in the fact that it is possible and will eventually be affordable for the masses!

It will only become "affordable for the masses" if we hit high volume and that can only happen if people trust the technology. Mr Musk's attempt to undermine the credibility of the NYT simply leaves doubt in the minds of the 'masses' which IMO is bad news for anyone interested in EV adoption.

 

[mkjayakumar]

It will only become "affordable for the masses" if we hit high volume and that can only happen if people trust the technology. Mr Musk's attempt to undermine the credibility of the NYT simply leaves doubt in the minds of the 'masses' which IMO is bad news for anyone interested in EV adoption.

I think you meant to say that, "Broader's attempt to purposefully flat-bed the Model-S, aka low-grade ethics violation, simply leaves doubt in the minds of the 'masses' which IMO is bad news for anyone who is concerned on our over-reliance on oil".

BTW, the real or apparent range loss on overnight soak is a well known issue for most Tesla owners and Tesla engineers itself. But that only means you need to either plug it in overnight or charge the next day morning to get enough range. Not necessarily drive like an idiot without enough gas in the tank. And believe me it is a temporary issue that will be resolved.

Also the comment on Model S being a toy is very insulting to the thousands that happily use it everyday just like any other car.