mortisier
Active member
This will work to Tesla's intrest. They need two other news organizations to repeat this drive. Immediatly! It's ok Broder I hear FOX is hiring. FAIR AND BALANCED!!!
Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"
- Thread starter evnow
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Ingineer
Well-known member
Thanks for posting that. Now that is a simple clean and good article. I'm even seriously impressed by the intelligent and reasonably accurate commentary, and on CNN no less!evnow said:
-Phil
thankyouOB
Well-known member
wow. if you plug it in and charge it full, it works!
i still cant believe they run the heat at 72. who does that in winter clothes?
(i get what Reg is saying below. makes sense. but 72?)
i still cant believe they run the heat at 72. who does that in winter clothes?
(i get what Reg is saying below. makes sense. but 72?)
RegGuheert
Well-known member
...and it was fairly chilly here in Washington, DC, yesterday.thankyouOB said:
Regarding wearing winter clothes, I agree with you when talking about the LEAF and short trips. Most people I know simply do not remove their coats when taking short trips because, at least with an ICE, the car is cold when you get in it. It's simply easier and more comfortable to leave the coat on and keep the car cooler.
But on long trips like a drive up to New England, I think most people remove their overcoats and use the heat to stay comfortable. I know that's what I do.
Nubo
Well-known member
What I get from the CNN story is,
The car rocks, the superchargers work. We would like MORE of them, please.
I think Tesla is not going to be hurt by this dust-up.
The car rocks, the superchargers work. We would like MORE of them, please.
I think Tesla is not going to be hurt by this dust-up.
LTLFTcomposite
Well-known member
Funny comments facebook re the Broder test:
"The car was weighed down carrying the NYT agenda"
"NYT loves green energy, but exceeded by their hatred of successful billionaires"
"The car was weighed down carrying the NYT agenda"
"NYT loves green energy, but exceeded by their hatred of successful billionaires"
Overall I think there is no question the Model S can make the trip successfully. The question seems to be why Broder couldn't or wouldn't do it. There are still some accounts that do not line up. Broder claims that Tesla told him to do certain things; the dumbest of which is letting the heater run with the car parked in the morning. We all know that will eat up the juice. Did Tesla really tell him to do that? The other is it seems he let the car sit overnight in the freezing cold - not plugged-in. I assume the Model S is like the Roadster and consumes quite a bit of energy running its active heating/cooling loop - plugged-in or not. Did he tell Tesla he was going to do this? They should have known this would eat through the charge. The bottom line question is did Broder "fake" the story or was he EV ignorant and followed bad advice from Tesla. I would love to hear their telephone conversations. I hope they were recorded.
kovalb said:
That would be nice, however I doubt it.
I suspect Broder either misunderstood the guidance, lied about it, or gave Tesla bad information.
The only way I can see anyone suggest Broder turn on the heater while parked is if they were under the impression that Broder's car was plugged in. Under that circumstance, the energy for battery heating would have come from the grid.
Or, he may have been told that as the car warms up some of the range will return. Which he heard as let the car warm up and the range will return.
Miscommunication on one side or the other or both, or an agenda we may never know. Broder's lack of common sense and care should give his editor's something to mull over regarding his ability to handle technology assignments.
surfingslovak
Well-known member
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John Voelcker just wrote up another good article on GCR:
Tesla Model S Owners Crowdsource Trip To Counter NY Times Report
Tesla Model S Owners Crowdsource Trip To Counter NY Times Report
TinMachine
Well-known member
Not to over simplify the whole thing, but I had a conversation with my 96 year old grandmother yesterday. Here's how it went.
Grandma: How have you been? How's the family?
ME: fine grandma. Everyone' doing well and how are you?
Grandma: So how is your new car (she asks every time since I bought the Leaf in August, she really got a kick out of my Leaf when I took her for a ride).
Me: It's fine Grandma. But I'd like to see more charging stations around and maybe a quick-charger (I explained what all this was last time we spoke).
Grandma: So tell me again how far can you go in your car? (her short term memory is not what it used to be, but she can tell you the names of all the people she graduated HS with).
Me: well it depends really but about 50-75 miles before I need to charge up again.
Grandma: Well that sounds just like me and your Grandpa when we got our first car in 1937. It was an older car and couldn't go faster than 30 or 40 miles per hour and quite a few times we ran out of gas and Grandpa had to walk to the nearest gas station.
You know there was not gas station on every corner like there is today? In my day you had to plan out any long trips carefully so as not to run out of gas. A few times your grandpa was able to stop by a farm and if the farmer had gasoline he would buy some. It was actually hard to find a gas station when we first had a car.
ME: Really grandma? Actually grandma there was an article in the paper about someone who tried to drive a new EV that gets about 260 miles on a charge from Washington DC to Boston and he ended up writing that he couldn't do it. He ran out of electricity and had to be towed to a charger.
Grandma: Sounds just like what they said about Lindbergh when he announced he would fly across the Atlantic..you know a few people died trying it before he got there right? You young people are so lucky to be living in a day when you can try these things and people don't think your crazy for trying and it happens so fast today. (My Grandpa was an early barnstormer and pilot around WWI, he was about 12 years older then Grandma and they actually new Lindbergh, also one of the early crash investigators of the NTSB).
So all this got me thinking. It was just over a generation ago that the prolific ICE car of today was just like EVs are now. Most people thought it was a fad and if you read the local Newspaper archives from the period it is riddled with folks saying "it'll never catch on", " these automobiles are noisy and smelly", they break down all the time" and my favorite "they spook the horses" usually followed by "I can fuel my transportation with hay, not some flammable substance". Plus as any horse lover will tell you, the only output from the horse can be used to grow more fuel.
So I supposed the point is things change. Early adopters, visionaries and alike forge ahead, even against the naysayers and doubters. If the subject of their endeavors is worthwhile and can become practical, it will take root and grow. So I think we may be coming full circle with automobiles. It will be a long road,hopefully not a whole generation. And it will have it's bumps but once the charging infrastructure begins to build out to a point where its more common to see one than not, we'll finally have arrived. BING! You are now free to move about the country...without polluting it!
So we must continue to test the limits of the technology in order to advance it. The Broder article should be a "lesson learned" in that even the Model S driver needs to unlearn what he has learned from years of ICE driving.
{edited for correct spelling of Lindbergh}
Grandma: How have you been? How's the family?
ME: fine grandma. Everyone' doing well and how are you?
Grandma: So how is your new car (she asks every time since I bought the Leaf in August, she really got a kick out of my Leaf when I took her for a ride).
Me: It's fine Grandma. But I'd like to see more charging stations around and maybe a quick-charger (I explained what all this was last time we spoke).
Grandma: So tell me again how far can you go in your car? (her short term memory is not what it used to be, but she can tell you the names of all the people she graduated HS with).
Me: well it depends really but about 50-75 miles before I need to charge up again.
Grandma: Well that sounds just like me and your Grandpa when we got our first car in 1937. It was an older car and couldn't go faster than 30 or 40 miles per hour and quite a few times we ran out of gas and Grandpa had to walk to the nearest gas station.
You know there was not gas station on every corner like there is today? In my day you had to plan out any long trips carefully so as not to run out of gas. A few times your grandpa was able to stop by a farm and if the farmer had gasoline he would buy some. It was actually hard to find a gas station when we first had a car.
ME: Really grandma? Actually grandma there was an article in the paper about someone who tried to drive a new EV that gets about 260 miles on a charge from Washington DC to Boston and he ended up writing that he couldn't do it. He ran out of electricity and had to be towed to a charger.
Grandma: Sounds just like what they said about Lindbergh when he announced he would fly across the Atlantic..you know a few people died trying it before he got there right? You young people are so lucky to be living in a day when you can try these things and people don't think your crazy for trying and it happens so fast today. (My Grandpa was an early barnstormer and pilot around WWI, he was about 12 years older then Grandma and they actually new Lindbergh, also one of the early crash investigators of the NTSB).
So all this got me thinking. It was just over a generation ago that the prolific ICE car of today was just like EVs are now. Most people thought it was a fad and if you read the local Newspaper archives from the period it is riddled with folks saying "it'll never catch on", " these automobiles are noisy and smelly", they break down all the time" and my favorite "they spook the horses" usually followed by "I can fuel my transportation with hay, not some flammable substance". Plus as any horse lover will tell you, the only output from the horse can be used to grow more fuel.
So I supposed the point is things change. Early adopters, visionaries and alike forge ahead, even against the naysayers and doubters. If the subject of their endeavors is worthwhile and can become practical, it will take root and grow. So I think we may be coming full circle with automobiles. It will be a long road,hopefully not a whole generation. And it will have it's bumps but once the charging infrastructure begins to build out to a point where its more common to see one than not, we'll finally have arrived. BING! You are now free to move about the country...without polluting it!
So we must continue to test the limits of the technology in order to advance it. The Broder article should be a "lesson learned" in that even the Model S driver needs to unlearn what he has learned from years of ICE driving.
{edited for correct spelling of Lindbergh}
^ Great story!
surfingslovak
Well-known member
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- Jun 13, 2011
- Messages
- 3,809
jackal
Well-known member
Great story Tin. We need more such conversations to put things into perspective.
thankyouOB
Well-known member
the annual New England road trip = Affectionately called the Broder 500, with a picnic in Milford, Conn.
driving a car beyond turtle = I Brodered the Leaf, but Nissan sent a free tow.
driving a car beyond turtle = I Brodered the Leaf, but Nissan sent a free tow.
evnow
Well-known member
Brodering : v. Deliberately run out of charge and stall an EV. Could also be because of ignorance or criminal negligence.
Stoaty
Well-known member
NEW EV DICTIONARY:
broder (verb) - to purposely or with willful ignorance run down the battery pack of an electric vehicle to the point that it no longer moves the vehicle. Note: This is an extreme form of turtling an electric vehicle that is either a planned act or involves extreme negligence or outright idiocy to accomplish.
Examples:
"Tony brodered his Leaf to get the data to make his range chart."
"I can't believe he brodered his Tesla by attempting to drive 60 miles when the car predicted 30 miles of remaining range."
"I reminded my wife to charge the Leaf last night, but she thought there was plenty of charge remaining. Today she ended up brodering the Leaf. Of course, I took responsibility by saying I should have purchased a Gid meter last month."
broder (verb) - to purposely or with willful ignorance run down the battery pack of an electric vehicle to the point that it no longer moves the vehicle. Note: This is an extreme form of turtling an electric vehicle that is either a planned act or involves extreme negligence or outright idiocy to accomplish.
Examples:
"Tony brodered his Leaf to get the data to make his range chart."
"I can't believe he brodered his Tesla by attempting to drive 60 miles when the car predicted 30 miles of remaining range."
"I reminded my wife to charge the Leaf last night, but she thought there was plenty of charge remaining. Today she ended up brodering the Leaf. Of course, I took responsibility by saying I should have purchased a Gid meter last month."
What everyone is missing is that Elon Musk has admitted it's a Tesla problem. That's fairly obvious if you take two minutes to analyze the pertinent data.
Broder ran out of battery trying to go from the Milford charging station to Groton and back to Milford. That's a fact. Musk claims that Broder charged to 72% at Milford. Let's assume that's true. Broder says after charging at Milford he drove 79 miles to Groton. Musk doesn't dispute that so let's assume that's true. Broder then says the next morning his car had 25 miles of range. Musk doesn't dispute that and, given what happens next, it's certain this is true. What happens next is that Broder says he ran the car for an hour with the heat on low per Tesla's instructions, after which, again at Tesla's instructions, he then drove to Norwich, found a Level II charger, and charged until the display showed he had 32 miles or range. Musk doesn't dispute this either. He also doesn't dispute that Broder then slowly drove 51 miles until the battery died.
See the problem? Broder charges to 72% at Milford, drives 79 miles to Groton, and has 25 miles of range left the next morning. Since Musk agrees this was the case, he's admitting that a 72% charge for a Tesla Model S Performance gives a range of 104 miles (79 miles + 25 miles). Simple algebra then tells you this means the total range of a new Model S Performance is .... drumroll .... 144.44 miles. That's less than half the 300 miles Tesla usually claims and well below the range Tesla says you should get when going 80 MPH with the heat blasting.
Lots more issues here. The ninety miles of range Broder claims he had when he stopped at Groton makes the range more acceptable but open the question of why the Tesla lost 65 miles of range when it was parked. I don't have any experience with the Leaf in cold weather, but if I fully charged my Leaf and left it outside for the night I wouldn't expect it to have 15 miles of range the next morning. And that's for a car with "primitive battery" support.
Broder ran out of battery trying to go from the Milford charging station to Groton and back to Milford. That's a fact. Musk claims that Broder charged to 72% at Milford. Let's assume that's true. Broder says after charging at Milford he drove 79 miles to Groton. Musk doesn't dispute that so let's assume that's true. Broder then says the next morning his car had 25 miles of range. Musk doesn't dispute that and, given what happens next, it's certain this is true. What happens next is that Broder says he ran the car for an hour with the heat on low per Tesla's instructions, after which, again at Tesla's instructions, he then drove to Norwich, found a Level II charger, and charged until the display showed he had 32 miles or range. Musk doesn't dispute this either. He also doesn't dispute that Broder then slowly drove 51 miles until the battery died.
See the problem? Broder charges to 72% at Milford, drives 79 miles to Groton, and has 25 miles of range left the next morning. Since Musk agrees this was the case, he's admitting that a 72% charge for a Tesla Model S Performance gives a range of 104 miles (79 miles + 25 miles). Simple algebra then tells you this means the total range of a new Model S Performance is .... drumroll .... 144.44 miles. That's less than half the 300 miles Tesla usually claims and well below the range Tesla says you should get when going 80 MPH with the heat blasting.
Lots more issues here. The ninety miles of range Broder claims he had when he stopped at Groton makes the range more acceptable but open the question of why the Tesla lost 65 miles of range when it was parked. I don't have any experience with the Leaf in cold weather, but if I fully charged my Leaf and left it outside for the night I wouldn't expect it to have 15 miles of range the next morning. And that's for a car with "primitive battery" support.
thankyouOB
Well-known member
evnow said:
Nope. this is a definition and there is no solid evidence of that: Deliberately run out of charge and stall an EV.
i reject it as the definition.
seriously, brodering is running a car to dead and needing a flatbed or mobile charge.
evnow
Well-known member
You should read the second part, too.thankyouOB said:
