1 Year "Battery Check" Results

[electricfuture]

Sorry, but nothing you said convinces me that you were ever close to running out. Did you even get the second warning on any of those "barely" stops, the one that says "very low battery"? You still have half a dozen miles or so after VLB before you get to Turtle. And by slowing down you can go at least 20 miles after you get to the last "red" bar (which isn't really red at all, just blue and white like all the others).

Ray,

I did not count on the guessometer. I had my bar chart with me and referred to it throughout the trip.

I hit "very low battery charge" once, dropped to 30-35 MPH with fogged windows on I-5, 78 and I-15 at night, which is very exciting with the big rigs. It is better than coffee for staying awake!
I crawled into the dealership charger at 15-20 MPH.

I may have had 6 miles left when I re-charged as you suggested - but I had 13 miles to go! Yeah, please tell me how to shut off the climate control and still use the fan control - I'd love that. I did shut down the climate control altogether but too late. That is why my windows fogged up. I probably would have made it with the 1st North Country top off on the return trip if it was off the entire trip.

One thing for sure, as I said earlier, I will check weather conditions before travelling to the fringe of the range.

 

[SanDust]

Bottom line – driving in the rain very significantly reduces your range due to the increased “wind” resistance and cool temperatures drops it even further. I am estimating that my range dropped to about 50 miles at full charge due to these conditions.

Sounds like quite a trip. Probably not the rain per se because moist air is less dense than dry air. The wind and colder temperatures were probably more the problem.

My experience is that at roughly 8 miles on the GOM you get a LB. At 4 miles you get the VLB. I've never taken it further than a few miles after VLB but other reports suggest at zero you get turtle. I don't think you'd get more than a couple of miles after that. It's easy to say you have a lot of miles left but when it's dark and cold and you don't have an easy way to charge you look at it differently.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

rain makes wet streets which increases rolling resistance

 

[Nubo]

...Probably not the rain per se because moist air is less dense than dry air....

Moist air, yes. But the raindrops themselves are far more dense.

 

[planet4ever]

My experience is that at roughly 8 miles on the GOM you get a LB. At 4 miles you get the VLB. I've never taken it further than a few miles after VLB but other reports suggest at zero you get turtle. I don't think you'd get more than a couple of miles after that.

I'm afraid you are off a bit on those estimates. In the first place, you never see the GOM go to zero. The instant you get VLB the GOM changes to three flashing dashes. For me that always seems to happen at GOM=3, but I'm sure it varies from one driver to another, and perhaps from one car to another. Like you, I normally see LB at GOM=8, but I know that can vary quite a bit.

The more important fact is that from GOM=8 to GOM=3 is way more than 5 miles for me; more like 10 miles most of the time. I've only been to Turtle once, but I have driven 5-6 miles after VLB without hitting it. The most important fact is that out of the dozens of Turtle reports I've seen on this board, I think only one was able to drive 2 miles further. Most were less than a mile. Many less than half a mile. Turtle means don't try to go any further. Find the first safe place to stop, and make a phone call.

Ray

 

[surfingslovak]

The more important fact is that from GOM=8 to GOM=3 is way more than 5 miles for me; more like 10 miles most of the time. I've only been to Turtle once, but I have driven 5-6 miles after VLB without hitting it. The most important fact is that out of the dozens of Turtle reports I've seen on this board, I think only one was able to drive 2 miles further. Most were less than a mile. Many less than half a mile. Turtle means don't try to go any further. Find the first safe place to stop, and make a phone call.

Thank you for correcting this, Ray. Please have a look at the total remaining usable energy predicted for these battery events by the model I've been working on for the Reverse SOC project:

LB: 3.4 kWh
VLB: 1.5 kWh
Turtle: 0.23 kWh

Additionally, the model predicts that you can travel 8.5 miles between LB and VLB at 4.3 miles/kWh energy economy and 5.5 miles between VLB and turtle. Obviously, I would take these numbers with a grain of salt, since they are based on a model, and not something that we learned from Nissan. Also note, that this is the energy available at the wheels, with all losses factored in.


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[LakeLeaf]

Easy enough to resolve - just show me the data. Lots and lots of data. The more we have, the better judgements we personally can make, and the less we have to depend on marketing organizations to give us warm fuzzies.

After the collective experience with Ecotality and the Blink, even if they had battery packs to test, would you believe their results? What experience do they have to evaluate Li-ion batteries, unless they worked closely with some other experienced lab.

Of course not - isn't this what the post says?

There are many QC's around the globe, and numerous Leafs that use the QC networks in their respective countries. Those drivers have data that we haven't really seen here, Nissan has that data that we really haven't seen here. Unless that data shows greater then projected losses for primarily using QC to charge the car, then why not release some of the data and give everyone here reassurances that the packs are more robust then initial warnings led us to believe?

It would be great to have more folks from Japan who use those chargers posting here.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I see everyone getting the same battery report with all stars even those that have charged 100% every single time they charge, never using 80%.

 

[SanDust]

Additionally, the model predicts that you can travel 8.5 miles between LB and VLB at 4.3 miles/kWh energy economy and 5.5 miles between VLB and turtle.

I haven't gotten what your model predicts. More like four miles rather than eight miles between LB and VLB. I'd assume that I was using something near 4.3 miles/kWh since the drive cycle consisted of driving around my neighborhood as an experiment to see what would happen.

Now my experience is so completely consistent with cars.com's that I'm on board in thinking that I'd only have four more miles from VLB to Turtle. Note that this drive was also exceedingly mild. Nice warm day on local surface streets. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/09/range-anxiety-what-if-you-drive-nissan-leaf-ev-till-battery-dies/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But my main points were: (1) You don't have many miles or range left once you get the LB warning; and (2) Models are nice but when it's dark and cold outside and you don't have an available charger they provide little comfort, especially since, as you mention, there is considerable variance from car to car. I live at the top of a hill. If I lived at the bottom I would probably take it to Turtle. But I don't have the confidence that if I hit Turtle at the bottom I could make it to the top, even though it's probably only half a mile or so.

 

[surfingslovak]

I haven't gotten what your model predicts. More like four miles rather than eight miles between LB and VLB. I'd assume that I was using something near 4.3 miles/kWh since the drive cycle consisted of driving around my neighborhood as an experiment to see what would happen.

The model says that an average car has about 2 kWh to burn between LB and VLB and about 1.3 kWh to burn from VLB to turtle.

Now my experience is so completely consistent with cars.com's that I'm on board in thinking that I'd only have four more miles from VLB to Turtle. Note that this drive was also exceedingly mild. Nice warm day on local surface streets. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/09/range-anxiety-what-if-you-drive-nissan-leaf-ev-till-battery-dies/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you are getting 4.3 miles per kWh, the model predicts 5.6 miles from VLB until you hit turtle.

But my main points were: (1) You don't have many miles or range left once you get the LB warning; and (2) Models are nice but when it's dark and cold outside and you don't have an available charger they provide little comfort, especially since, as you mention, there is considerable variance from car to car. I live at the top of a hill. If I lived at the bottom I would probably take it to Turtle. But I don't have the confidence that if I hit Turtle at the bottom I could make it to the top, even though it's probably only half a mile or so.

Following Tony Williams' lead, I have been to turtle many times over the last two or three months, and some of these events occurred in adverse conditions. I would chalk it up to my learning experience, and I must admit that I'm a lot more confident about the car and my ability to face low-charge situations.

Obviously, I would not recommend that you drove beyond the VLB with any regularity, and I'm especially not suggesting that you should get yourself stranded on a cold wet night away from any charging opportunity. What I'm saying is that information is power, and it can help you face an adverse condition instead of being spooked by it.

I have seen many folks that believe the GOM to the letter. The idea you voiced earlier, that you get to turtle mode when the GOM arrives at zero, is more common than you would think. Unfortunately, there is no zero on the GOM, only three flashing dashes at the end of the range. Nissan does not give you any guidance at that point. Thankfully, they also understate available range when you hit the LB warning. By nearly 100%, which is very significant in my book. It's also helpful to realize that the range figure is not set in stone. There is a certain amount of energy left in the pack, and how far you will travel will greatly depend on how (and where) you will drive.

Again, I'm not recommending that you relied on this energy being available, just know that it's there, know how to use it and understand how to recognize that turtle mode is approaching so that you can get somewhere safe. I would also recommend measuring how much energy you need to get to the top of the hill to get home. You can use the charging time display for that, each hour corresponds to about 0.8 kWh. You are likely correct, and I don't think that you can afford to be in turtle before you hit that slope. You would need to plan ahead for the climb.

To illustrate my point, let me show you how my dash looked like when I embarked on an 11-mile trip on January 19, which happened to be a cold wet night:


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And this is how it looked like at the end of the trip:


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I did this for the Reverse SOC project, and used this opportunity to validate the model. I estimated my available battery energy to be 20.5 kWh, measured when I was halfway through the SOC range. I also knew that my energy economy was around 4.2 or 4.3. The model predicted that I had a chance of making it. Note the 22-hour mark on the image below, it says that 11 miles true range were remaining. I went for it. Needless to say, I was conserving energy all the way, since I knew that it would be awfully close. I also dreaded something unforeseen, but it thankfully all worked out.


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[SanDust]

The idea you voiced earlier, that you get to turtle mode when the GOM arrives at zero, is more common than you would think. Unfortunately, there is no zero on the GOM, only three flashing dashes at the end of the range.

Generally I don't pay a lot of attention to the GOM. However, both times when the GOM showed 8 miles I got the LB warning, and then, after 4 miles (maybe it was 4.5), the GOM showed a remaining range of 4 miles before going to the VLB warning with flashing lines. I hadn't expected this since from posts here I had the impression you'd get more miles between the LB and the VLB warnings. Since the GOM was accurate between 8 and 4 miles of range, my thinking was that it would be accurate between 4 and 0 miles (Turtle).

I was also under the impression that there were actually 14 bars, of which 2 were hidden "below" the last two red bars, but I don't think that's the case. I think when you hit zero bars you go to Turtle and then you just a mile or two left, even with with reduced power.

I don't do this with any regularity. In fact I normally like a few bars as a cushion. But every once in a while I end up using most of the bars. If I have an opportunity I'll see what happens just so I'm prepared if in fact I do end up having to push the envelope, so to speak.

 

[planet4ever]

I was also under the impression that there were actually 14 bars, of which 2 were hidden "below" the last two red bars, but I don't think that's the case. I think when you hit zero bars you go to Turtle and then you just a mile or two left, even with with reduced power.

I have lost the last bar many times, and only seen the turtle once. You will lose that last bar sometime after getting the LBW but before getting the VLBW. And of course you won't go to Turtle until some time after getting VLBW.

But, seriously, do NOT assume you have "a mile or two left" after the turtle appears. Reduced power? You bet. Even a tiny grade that you don't normally notice is torture. How far? Far enough to get off the road, somewhere within the next quarter mile.

As for those "two hidden bars", it's probably no more than 1½, but that's not what you need to pay attention to. When you hear the lady say, "Your battery is low":

• Reset one of your trip odometers.
• Turn off climate control if at all feasible.
• Slow down and drive gently.

If you hear her say, "Your battery is very low," look at the trip odometer and mentally divide by two. That's about how much farther you can go assuming the driving conditions and your driving behavior remain the same.

Ray

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I was also under the impression that there were actually 14 bars, of which 2 were hidden "below" the last two red bars, but I don't think that's the case. I think when you hit zero bars you go to Turtle and then you just a mile or two left, even with with reduced power.

I have lost the last bar many times, and only seen the turtle once. You will lose that last bar sometime after getting the LBW but before getting the VLBW. And of course you won't go to Turtle until some time after getting VLBW.

But, seriously, do NOT assume you have "a mile or two left" after the turtle appears. Reduced power? You bet. Even a tiny grade that you don't normally notice is torture. How far? Far enough to get off the road, somewhere within the next quarter mile.

As for those "two hidden bars", it's probably no more than 1½, but that's not what you need to pay attention to. When you hear the lady say, "Your battery is low":

• Reset one of your trip odometers.
• Turn off climate control if at all feasible.
• Slow down and drive gently.

If you hear her say, "Your battery is very low," look at the trip odometer and mentally divide by two. That's about how much farther you can go assuming the driving conditions and your driving behavior remain the same.

Ray

Plus 1 here. on my trip http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=134" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the last bar disappears at VLB which for me happened at 92.7 miles and turtle happened at 99.3 miles. now i ended the trip at 100.1 miles and still had "street speed power"

i parked it with 6 power circles left and could still do 35 mph. i am guessing i could have gotten maybe another 1.5 miles out of it.

 

[LEAFfan]

Rain, wind, and temperature can drop your range easily by 20% or more.
Bottom line – driving in the rain very significantly reduces your range due to the increased “wind” resistance and cool temperatures drops it even further. I am estimating that my range dropped to about 50 miles at full charge due to these conditions.

I've driven in the rain, the cold, and the wind. And I can tell you that a cross or headwind will reduce your range much more than rain or cooler temps.

 

[LEAFfan]

I too doubt this. How did the super-seekrit ecotality lab get Leaf packs to test for "years"? =)

-Phil

After the collective experience with Ecotality and the Blink, even if they had battery packs to test, would you believe their results? What experience do they have to evaluate Li-ion batteries, unless they worked closely with some other experienced lab.

You people amaze me when you try to discount something where you have no idea what you are talking about. I've posted many times that the techs worked with Nissan way before the LEAF was even announced. You can keep pushing and posting your FUD, but the fact remains that QCing up to 6 times a day causes no more degradation to the battery pack than L2 charging over 8yrs./100K miles. This will be re-verified with the Japanese taxis. Use your heads and think a bit...what viable use is a QC port if you can only use it once a day?!

 

[Ready2plugin]

I only wish that I had to worry about it. 13 months driving in the Bay Area and zero QC.

 

[surfingslovak]

You people amaze me when you try to discount something where you have no idea what you are talking about. I've posted many times that the techs worked with Nissan way before the LEAF was even announced. You can keep pushing and posting your FUD, but the fact remains that QCing up to 6 times a day causes no more degradation to the battery pack than L2 charging over 8yrs./100K miles. This will be re-verified with the Japanese taxis. Use your heads and think a bit...what viable use is a QC port if you can only use it once a day?!

LEAFfan, the information you bring to the table is certainly appreciated, even if it's not commonly accepted. I'm not going to argue, since I'm leaning towards QC being barely a blip on the radar for the average owner. It will be interesting to see how the taxis in Japan will fare, but the data we have seen so far, and some of the educated opinions voiced last year and the year before that, are favorable. Please keep in mind however, that it behoves a car manufacturer to be conservative. We saw something very similar on the Tesla board recently, as QC was announced for the Model S. It's the same story all over, and I'm sure when BMW announces their QC solution, it's going to be more of the same.

I'm not going to discuss the 28 kWh battery capacity claim however, since I firmly believe that to be in the realm of folklore based on a misquote or error. Nissan's recent TB contains something resembling a range table, which confirms the assumption of 21 kWh available at the wheels. I realize that you might not accept that as a sign that the 28 kWh claim is flawed, but let's just say that we are inching towards that.

 

[linkim]

You people amaze me when you try to discount something where you have no idea what you are talking about. I've posted many times that the techs worked with Nissan way before the LEAF was even announced. You can keep pushing and posting your FUD, but the fact remains that QCing up to 6 times a day causes no more degradation to the battery pack than L2 charging over 8yrs./100K miles. This will be re-verified with the Japanese taxis. Use your heads and think a bit...what viable use is a QC port if you can only use it once a day?!

My comment, perhaps not well expressed, was not on multiple QC charging. It was directed to the comment of Ecotality, and my experience with their Blink. I am aware from discussion with Japanese engineers that the Japanese taxis using QC have not experienced battery degradation so far. That is good news for us if we want to do multiple QC in moderate temperatures, if and when L3 chargers become available.

 

[LakeLeaf]

This topic seems to be of great interest to everyone on the forum.

Any chance one of our dedicated members could start to put together a spreadsheet which tries to capture battery check results after 1, 2, 3 years, and also some data about charging and driving? So far it seems that the battery packs are holding up exceptionally. It would be great if we could capture the parameters that end up being the primary contributors to pack degradation.

It would take a good, and well thought out, effort to end up capturing things that cause battery degradation. (charge frequency, charge %, miles driven, operating temperatures, highway vs. local driving, etc. etc)

 

[surfingslovak]

This topic seems to be of great interest to everyone on the forum.

Any chance one of our dedicated members could start to put together a spreadsheet which tries to capture battery check results after 1, 2, 3 years, and also some data about charging and driving? So far it seems that the battery packs are holding up exceptionally. It would be great if we could capture the parameters that end up being the primary contributors to pack degradation.

It would take a good, and well thought out, effort to end up capturing things that cause battery degradation. (charge frequency, charge %, miles driven, operating temperatures, highway vs. local driving, etc. etc)

Great idea! Note that Phil has found some interesting CAN bus code that could facilitate better and more detailed battery diagnostics. Based on the data I have seen elsewhere, it might be challenging to distill capacity degradation figures from all the other noise cause by daily temperature changes, and other factors.