1 Year "Battery Check" Results

[TomT]

I just had mine done at 14,000 miles. No surprises; 12 check boxes and all 5 stars... I mostly charge to 80 percent with an average of about three 100 percent charges per month. I've had but one QC.

 

[Ingineer]

I don't believe there is any balancing occurring anywhere but at top, and besides that, there isn't much point to balancing UNTIL you charge all the way. I think what EVdriver is saying is that you don't need to do anything special with your charge routine to keep your pack balanced/healthy and that I agree with. If you rarely charge to "full" (which I'm not going to call 100%), then you won't benefit from balancing, and if you do top it off, the battery ECU will balance as it sees fit.

-Phil

 

[lpickup]

Actually, the battery pack can be QCd up to 6 times a day (to 80% SOC in the high temps of AZ) without causing any damage, as long as the battery pack temp gauge is outside the red.

My source is the techs at ECOtality who have been testing the LEAF's battery packs for years in the highest heat.

As much as I would like to believe you, I think the second statement removes practically all credibility of any statements made. Granted, I don't have a Blink charging station and am going mostly on second hand horror stories from Blink owners and users.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

The QC'ing I've done so far appears to have virtually no effect on temperature. We just won't know for sure until we have years of data, but there are reports of Taxi's in japan QC'ing all day long with no loss to the battery. Time may be more of a factor than how much the battery is charged and discharged... so far though, these batteries, combined with the sophisticated battery management system of the LEAF appear to be far more robust than anything I've encountered before.

The longer I own this car, the more confidence I have that it will have a long and very low cost life. The question is, how much longer can the conservative media keep a lid on just how wildly inexpensive this type of vehicle is to drive!

Actually, the battery pack can be QCd up to 6 times a day (to 80% SOC in the high temps of AZ) without causing any damage, as long as the battery pack temp gauge is outside the red.

My source is the techs at ECOtality who have been testing the LEAF's battery packs for years in the highest heat.

As much as I would like to believe you, I think the second statement removes practically all credibility of any statements made. Granted, I don't have a Blink charging station and am going mostly on second hand horror stories from Blink owners and users.

 

[Ingineer]

I too doubt this. How did the super-seekrit ecotality lab get Leaf packs to test for "years"? =)

-Phil

 

[palmermd]

Absolutely, it is. 50C (122F) is the shut down temp. It starts restricting the power well before then.

The shutdown temp is documented, but I cant find the motor power segment reduction as a function of temperature. We know step 9 (122F), but we are missing the other 8. The manual clearly stated the amount of power available at each segment, but not what conditions limit it. It may be in the manual elsewhere, but I did not find it on a quick review this morning.

 

[smkettner]

I too doubt this. How did the super-seekrit ecotality lab get Leaf packs to test for "years"? =)

-Phil

Probably "lab years" where the testing is by programmed machine running 24/7 giving the effect of several years use.
I never quite believe in this as equivelent to actual time spent.

 

[MrFish]

Drees, thanks for you item analysis of my concerns.

What I am really wanting to know is if anyone here has received anything other than 5/5star perfect battery condition on the first year report and if the answer is no, does that mean:

1) The battery is really that good (I can stop worrying about charging to only 80%)
2) The report not truthful (This option scares me)
3) It just too soon to tell (I will need to keep on worrying a little longer)
4) This is all a dream and I will soon wake up, gas my car up, and go to work

Seems like there should be some varied data points 1 year into this, I'm pretty sure someone here has abused their battery to some degree. Not me of course

 

[surfingslovak]

4) This is all a dream and I will soon wake up, gas my car up, and go to work

I think #4 is the only logical explanation here :-D

In all seriousness, it's still early, but the limited data made available by fellow Leaf owners supports the notion of a well-built battery pack with minimal cycling losses. As has been said many times before, the deciding factor might turn out to be calendar life, and by extension storage - the temperature and state of charge the car is sitting at most of the time. It's definitely too early for that, since most of us had the car for less than a year.

 

[LakeLeaf]

I too doubt this. How did the super-seekrit ecotality lab get Leaf packs to test for "years"? =)

-Phil

Probably "lab years" where the testing is by programmed machine running 24/7 giving the effect of several years use.
I never quite believe in this as equivelent to actual time spent.

Easy enough to resolve - just show me the data. Lots and lots of data. The more we have, the better judgements we personally can make, and the less we have to depend on marketing organizations to give us warm fuzzies.

 

[Luft]

I too doubt this. How did the super-seekrit ecotality lab get Leaf packs to test for "years"? =)

-Phil

+1

I am always a little cautious of anyone making claims if they have business interests that would be affected by what people believe. ECOtaliity is suppose to bring us many DC QC stations. Unless they adopt some kind of subscription based flat fee for charging it's not in their interests to have customers believe that they should limit their charging to once per day.

Japan is a little farther along than we are in the DC QC area. I would love to see the data from the heavy users there.

 

[linkim]

I too doubt this. How did the super-seekrit ecotality lab get Leaf packs to test for "years"? =)

-Phil

Probably "lab years" where the testing is by programmed machine running 24/7 giving the effect of several years use.
I never quite believe in this as equivelent to actual time spent.

Easy enough to resolve - just show me the data. Lots and lots of data. The more we have, the better judgements we personally can make, and the less we have to depend on marketing organizations to give us warm fuzzies.

After the collective experience with Ecotality and the Blink, even if they had battery packs to test, would you believe their results? What experience do they have to evaluate Li-ion batteries, unless they worked closely with some other experienced lab.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I too doubt this. How did the super-seekrit ecotality lab get Leaf packs to test for "years"? =)

-Phil

Probably "lab years" where the testing is by programmed machine running 24/7 giving the effect of several years use.
I never quite believe in this as equivelent to actual time spent.

Is that lab years plugged into an Ecotality Blink charger? Yes, that'll be some perfect data.

 

[CWO4Mann]

I didn't make it. 66 miles to turtle, but I don't know what my real mpk was. Major crosswind. I hit LBW as I entered Red Rock Canyon and VLBW just before I got to the top of the hill exiting the canyon. Turtle just after the top of the hill. The last eight miles of range melted away in about three miles. To be fair, conditions were bad in the canyon. Moderate rain, and I hit a headwind. I actually saw the power meter hit seven bubbles once during a gust, versus three or four while climbing normally. No heat, of course; I had a blanket over my legs.

So, when I hit turtle at the top of the hill, I pulled over ASAP. Monika picked me up and we drove the remaining 20 miles home to pick up my truck and flatbed. When we got back to the LEAF, I started it and drove it two miles to where I'd parked the truck and trailer in a good spot for loading. As usual, the LEAF wasn't in turtle when I started it, and I was able to run 47 mph for most of the two (slightly downhill) miles to my truck. It was just starting to lose speed as I got to the truck. It had enough power left to turn on and off, and shift out of park into neutral. I see a power steering and 12V battery alarm on the display now. Those probably occurred while I was wrestling with the steering and winching the car onto my trailer. The PS alarm I can understand; the battery, not so much.

Not enough power left to drive on the trailer, so I winched it up. I collect antique tractors, so I am equipped to load dead vehicles:

And here it is parked under my sun shade, charging enough so I can get it off the trailer:

I probably won't try to drive to the Nissan dealer again.

I haven't checked the version of firmware installed in my car yet, so I don't know if they updated it. They did run a cell pair Voltage check, but unfortunately they waited until the car was 75% charged before they did it. And they failed to run the required battery use report. I'm covered, I think, since the work order clearly indicates that I asked them to do it. On the cell Voltages, the lowest was 4076 mV; the highest was 4116 mV. Battery Voltage was 394.3. What a shame; a check when the battery was discharged might have given them and us useful data.

My summary? I made some mistakes, and so did the dealer, so I still don't know how my battery is doing.

-Karl

Excellent report! Thanks for all the information. Sometimes pushing the envelope is fun, other times all you can say is "aww shucks". BTW, Antique tractors??? There are acres of them sitting around here in middle Tennessee. Sad to see, really.

Dave

 

[CWO4Mann]

The problem with this approach is that you could have a 14% reduction in battery capacity, and the Leaf will still show 12 bars...

The approach might be 'wrong' for most, but the approach won't impact the fact that 14% reduction in battery capacity might not show up on the 'count the bars' method. That fact would remain even if I never drove the car

I figure that real-world testing is the best way to show the EV haters that EVs do, in fact, make sense. I am NOT purposely damaging or abusing the vehicle in any way, but at the end of the day, it is a car. It gets me from A to B and is very economical. I am not going to baby it!

Exactly .. it's an automobile .. I am going to drive it not make love to it. About the time you fall in love with your vehicle, you wrap it around a telephone pole (ask me what happened to my 1964 Honda 305 Superhawk). :roll:

Dave

 

[CWO4Mann]

4) This is all a dream and I will soon wake up, gas my car up, and go to work

I think #4 is the only logical explanation here :-D

In all seriousness, it's still early, but the limited data made available by fellow Leaf owners supports the notion of a well-built battery pack with minimal cycling losses. As has been said many times before, the deciding factor might turn out to be calendar life, and by extension storage - the temperature and state of charge the car is sitting at most of the time. It's definitely too early for that, since most of us had the car for less than a year.

I'm thinking that this is one reason us early adopters have gathered in this holy place anon. To compare results and test various theories so that the future of EV's will be so bright we have to wear shades. As I mentioned in another post, I am driving the LEAF exactly as I would drive any other car. When I get home I pull into the garage and plug it it, no timers. If it sits in there all weekend while I am on the Lazyboy Recliner swilling beer, eating taco chips and bean dip, watching football, soccer, baseball, basketball, the Hooters channel, then so be it. Hang on a sec, I gotta get Momma to bring me another brewski and let the dogs out for their run after the neighbor's cat. Anyway, I just drive the car and let the electricity take care of itself. I know one thing for certain, I ain't spending $350 per month on gasoline anymore.

Dave

 

[electricfuture]

Rain, wind, and temperature can drop your range easily by 20% or more.

I recently drove 76 miles from North San Diego to Westminster, CA. I left the house with 100% charge, tires pumped up to 42 PSI, and only climate control was the fan. I travelled at 50-65 MPH most of the way. I stopped at a North County Nissan dealership to top it off to about 95% before crossing no man’s land (Camp Pendleton). I made it to Westminster with only one red bar left (Guessometer 6 miles remaining). It could have been worse but the traffic slowed to about 30 MPH on the last stretch due to people in Southern California not knowing what to do when it rains!

The trip back was more harrowing. I had leather seats installed while the car trickle charged at 120V for 5 hours – which just gave me enough juice to get to a major shopping mall that had EV chargers. I hung out there until I was at 80% - big mistake. Now it was dark and temperatures dropped another 5 degrees to 45 F although the rain was only a mist. I barely made it to the North County Nissan dealership and charged up to about 75% and thought I could make it home. No go. I barely made it to another Nissan dealership fortunately right off the Interstate and sat there in the dark to 11 PM charging up another 45 minutes to get home – on the last red bar. The worst part was the windows were steaming up but I resorted to keeping windows open to clear them to reduce energy drain.

Bottom line – driving in the rain very significantly reduces your range due to the increased “wind” resistance and cool temperatures drops it even further. I am estimating that my range dropped to about 50 miles at full charge due to these conditions.

You probably want to check your local weather before going on a trip that will take you to the fringe of your expected range!

 

[Ingineer]

Rain, wind, and temperature can drop your range easily by 20% or more.

I recently drove 76 miles from North San Diego to Westminster, CA. I left the house with 100% charge, tires pumped up to 42 PSI, and only climate control was the fan. I travelled at 50-65 MPH most of the way. I stopped at a North County Nissan dealership to top it off to about 95% before crossing no man’s land (Camp Pendleton). I made it to Westminster with only one red bar left (Guessometer 6 miles remaining). It could have been worse but the traffic slowed to about 30 MPH on the last stretch due to people in Southern California not knowing what to do when it rains!

The trip back was more harrowing. I had leather seats installed while the car trickle charged at 120V for 5 hours – which just gave me enough juice to get to a major shopping mall that had EV chargers. I hung out there until I was at 80% - big mistake. Now it was dark and temperatures dropped another 5 degrees to 45 F although the rain was only a mist. I barely made it to the North County Nissan dealership and charged up to about 75% and thought I could make it home. No go. I barely made it to another Nissan dealership fortunately right off the Interstate and sat there in the dark to 11 PM charging up another 45 minutes to get home – on the last red bar. The worst part was the windows were steaming up but I resorted to keeping windows open to clear them to reduce energy drain.

Bottom line – driving in the rain very significantly reduces your range due to the increased “wind” resistance and cool temperatures drops it even further. I am estimating that my range dropped to about 50 miles at full charge due to these conditions.

You probably want to check your local weather before going on a trip that will take you to the fringe of your expected range!

How do you know your heater didn't activate if it was cold and you didn't have the climate control fully OFF. If you set the temp to lowest possible (60), the heater can operate if the car thinks the interior temperature will drop below 60. The Heater can pull up to 5kW, which can drastically reduce range!

The only present way to prevent this is to shut the CC fully OFF. I will soon have available a solution for this, look for details soon!

-Phil

 

[Stoaty]

How do you know your heater didn't activate if it was cold and you didn't have the climate control fully OFF. If you set the temp to lowest possible (60), the heater can operate if the car thinks the interior temperature will drop below 60. The Heater can pull up to 5kW, which can drastically reduce range!

The only present way to prevent this is to shut the CC fully OFF. I will soon have available a solution for this, look for details soon!

Can't wait for this! It's the only thing that REALLY bothers me about the Leaf.

 

[planet4ever]

... only one red bar left (Guessometer 6 miles remaining)
... just gave me enough juice to get to a major shopping mall that had EV chargers.
... barely made it to the North County Nissan dealership
... barely made it to another Nissan dealership
... get home – on the last red bar.

Sorry, but nothing you said convinces me that you were ever close to running out. Did you even get the second warning on any of those "barely" stops, the one that says "very low battery"? You still have half a dozen miles or so after VLB before you get to Turtle. And by slowing down you can go at least 20 miles after you get to the last "red" bar (which isn't really red at all, just blue and white like all the others).

Ray