Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

[edatoakrun]

What model 3 do you seriously expect CA buyers to be able to buy for "10% more", or ~$27.5 k?

So now we're specific to CA?
You're changing the goalpost.

Leaf SL = $36,500
Model 3 Premium = $40k...

When will TSLA actually begin delivering model 3s outside of CA?

Higher incentives in some other states will make the price discrepancy higher as a percentage, and states with lower incentives, lower, obviously.

I hope you like black because that's the only model 3 TSLA claims it ever will to deliver with the PP for ~$41k, pre-incentive.

And without the $8k of autopliot options, what do you get, just emergency braking, and you'd hope, at least 1970's vintage cruise control?

Isn't the whole point of the cheap blank dash that the model 3 comes with, is that the 3 is supposed to be capable of L4 (or L5?) autonomy...someday.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Isn't the whole point of the cheap blank dash that the model 3 comes with, is that the 3 is supposed to be capable of L4 (or L5?) autonomy...someday.

That's what they say. IMO, though, the real point of the cheap blank dash is just that - to be cheap.

 

[edatoakrun]

The Tesla model 3 (and proposed model Y) should be compared to BEVs closer to their price range, like the Audi and Jaguar BEVs, both due to arrive in 2018.

Comparing a model 3 with a start price of $35k to an ipace which is going to be the better part of $100k? Okay.

Neither the Audi or Jag are likely to do what TSLA has, use an unattractive decontented model priced as a loss leader.

Your implication that the model 3 and Y (if built) won't both have fully loaded prices reaching "the better part of $100k", is false.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

What model 3 do you seriously expect CA buyers to be able to buy for "10% more", or ~$27.5 k?

So now we're specific to CA?
You're changing the goalpost.

Leaf SL = $36,500
Model 3 Premium = $40k...

When will TSLA actually begin delivering model 3s outside of CA?

Higher incentives in some other states will make the price discrepancy higher as a percentage, and states with lower incentives, lower, obviously.

I hope you like black because that's the only model 3 TSLA claims it ever will to deliver with the PP for ~$41k, pre-incentive.

And without the $8k of autopliot options, what do you get, just emergency braking, and you'd hope, at least 1970's vintage cruise control?

Isn't the whole point of the cheap blank dash that the model 3 comes with, is that the 3 is supposed to be capable of L4 (or L5?) autonomy...someday.

Personally I do like black. The car is $40k, not $41k.

Why are you talking about $8k for autopilot options? The $5k EAP already offers more than propilot (self-parking, for one thing).

Isn't the whole point of the cheap blank dash that the model 3 comes with, is that the 3 is supposed to be capable of L4 (or L5?) autonomy...someday.

That's what they say. IMO, though, the real point of the cheap blank dash is just that - to be cheap.

I agree with this. I actually hate the interior on the model 3.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

The Tesla model 3 (and proposed model Y) should be compared to BEVs closer to their price range, like the Audi and Jaguar BEVs, both due to arrive in 2018.

Comparing a model 3 with a start price of $35k to an ipace which is going to be the better part of $100k? Okay.

Neither the Audi or Jag are likely to do what TSLA has, use an unattractive decontented model priced as a loss leader.

Your implication that the model 3 and Y (if built) won't both have fully loaded prices reaching "the better part of $100k", is false.

I never implied that. On the contrary your implication was that since they could cost up to $80k or whatever they should be compared to cars that cost similarly. The $80k model 3 should be compared to a $80k car but the $35k model 3 shouldn't be.

 

[Durandal]

What model 3 are you talking about?

Please, let's be serious.

Are YOU serious?

I expect to be able to buy a fully-loaded 2018 LEAF next year for about $35 k, ~$25k here in California, after Fed tax credit and CA rebate.

What model 3 do you seriously expect CA buyers to be able to buy for "10% more", or ~$27.5 k?

I dunno about California, but I'm taking delivery of my $35k (pre incentive) $27,500 (post incentive) Model 3 in some time between May and June of 2018, according to my delivery estimator, for my reservation I made in APRIL of this year. I'm in one of those red states, so we don't have anything special at the state level for BEV purchases. I might spring another $1k for a color other than black, I've not decided yet.

 

[TomT]

One of the main advantages that the Model 3 will have is access to the Telsa Supercharger network. That is a huge plus and a long distance game changer for me.

 

[edatoakrun]

One of the main advantages that the Model 3 will have is access to the Telsa Supercharger network. That is a huge plus and a long distance game changer for me.

The saddest cases will likely be those who buy a Tesla 3 specifically to access TSLA's proprietary DC network:

Many complaint threads developing RE less-than-super charge rates at Tesla DC sites.

AFAIK from reading many of these posts, TSLA has produced no explanation for its problems, and multiple causes are suggested.

Most , like the post below, report kW rates that may sound OK to a LEAF driver, but still mean waiting several hours for a most-of-a-pack charge for a Tesla.

Degraded superchargers are a continuing problem

I took a road trip from LA to Vegas, and experienced 40 kW max at both Redondo and Primm superchargers. I was not sharing a stall pair, it was around 80*F, and charging in the 10-40% range where my car normally gets 100-110 kW (which my car got just fine the next day). After my trip, I called customer service and the rep was able to instantly look up supercharger info and confirm that those locations were degraded, and he could see everyone else getting <40 kW. Why can phone reps see this info instantly but we can't? Max charge rate and degradation should be added to the "stalls available" info on the touchscreen map so we can plan around the problems. I was late to work and had passengers, so this gave their perception of Tesla a black eye. Also this was my third road trip this year where I've run into this, so the individual supercharger problems really need to be fixed faster because it's way too common, especially with the mass production of model 3's starting soon...

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6rxizg/degraded_superchargers_are_a_continuing_problem/

Superchargers super-slow

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/superchargers-super-slow.81432/page-19

charging slow at Superchargers

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/charging-slow-at-superchargers.88394/page-7

Has there been any clarification on Supercharger throttling...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/has-there-been-any-clarification-on-supercharger-throttling.94619/page-4

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=1490

What do you think will "supercharger" performance be like, if TSLA ever sells anywhere near the number of 3's it claims it plans to ?

 

[finman100]

omg, you have lost it man. get over it. wow. could that be any more FUD? please just stop. u r an embarrassment to all EV drivers. and have NO CLUE. just quit playing. sad case indeed...

 

[internalaudit]

One of the main advantages that the Model 3 will have is access to the Telsa Supercharger network. That is a huge plus and a long distance game changer for me.

To be quite honest, that is the one thing I don't care much about, especially having to pay 20 cents per kWh when charging at home costs around 12 cents all in, and factored with the inconvenience of having to wait once more Tesla vehicles are on the road. If that's the case, I might as well travel with our RAV4 Hybrid and pay about 50% more in gasoline (instead of charging costs) for convenience. I don't do cross country or continent driving anyway because I don't have the time and interest, at the moment.

At 1/3 the cost of gasoline usage and for 95% of our travel needs, I would love to own a BEV but at 2/3 the gasoline cost for long distance vacationing or driving (maybe not even 5% of the time), I will just stick with our Hybrid.

=========

So Leaf has battery degradation issues in the past but said they've improved chemistry and offer 70% capacity warranty over eight years. I've checked true delta a couple of weeks ago and noticed varying issues with the Leaf so it's not like a RAV4 Hybrid in reliability where half of the issues were related to the lift gate ECU that had been recalled already and with a fix.

I'm almost positive that repair costs on the Leaf (let's exclude the battery for now) after the warranty / extended warranty period will be easily overshadowed by repair costs on the Tesla.

For those leasing, it's a non-issue, in my case, I tend to hold on to vehicles for a very long time until it becomes onerous to own them (costs too much to repair, becomes a casket on wheels) so total cost of ownership is what I'd be interested to find out about not just the initial outlay, that can be cushioned by financing over a few years.

 

[TonyWilliams]

^^^^

Referring to model 3 buyers as merely suffering from a midlife crisis is a bit much, don't you think?

That "$36,500" leaf you claim is similar to a "model 3 stripper" is disingenuous to say the least. I can buy a fully loaded nissan sentra for less than a stripped-down entry level BMW M5.

Here's another way to look at it. You can get the fully loaded Leaf. Or, you can spend less than 10% more on a model 3 and have a car that has 50% more range, 75% more power, fast-charges 50% faster, and has a nation-wide charge network that actually allows you to perform that charge.

So the real question is not why would you buy a model 3 premium over a leaf SL, but what sort of drugs are you on that you wouldn't?

Ole' Ed got hit on the noggin a few too many times. Based on his constant thrashing of Tesla, you'd assume a he got hit by a Tesla.

There's another pertinent fact that you left out; Tesla Model 3 can not only use the premier DC fast charger network known a Supercharger, plus all the thousands of Tesla Destination charge stations, but also ALL the charging infrastructure that a LEAF can use, both J1772 and CHAdeMO.

My only serious reservations with the Model 3 compared to a LEAF would be:

1) trunk space
2) service

 

[SageBrush]

So Leaf has battery degradation issues in the past but said they've improved chemistry and offer 70% capacity warranty over eight years.

Be smart, and ignore what Nissan says about battery improvement.

We still don't know what the battery warranty for the LEAF2 will be, nor do we know if it will be linked to "bars" of unknown intervals.
And I would keep in mind that even a warranty like the current 30 kWh battery models carry only assure you of more than 8 bars during the first 8yr/100k miles. You can drop to 9 bars a couple years out and have no recourse at all until that last bar drops. Or drop 10% in a year and have no recourse ... for years.

You came to this forum to ask if a LEAF2 would be a reasonable purchase for 130 mile drives in Canada. You should have a reasonable answer.

 

[GRA]

OTOH, while the the Model 3's trunk entrance makes loading tall cargo an issue, it gives you unobstructed length with the rear seats folded down, and the LEAF is seriously compromised even without the amp (unacceptably so to me, and probably anyone who often carries a bike inside, or wishes to sleep in the car).

I have never had any desire to sleep in a car, although I understand there are people that do. For me, I instead carry a softball-sized hammock and some rope for sleeping. The beauty of the Northeast - trees are not hard to come by.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XGR5BR...t=&hvlocphy=9005171&hvtargid=pla-305487447280

I've never been big on hammocks, although there are certainly places where they make sense. For one thing, I'm often at or above timberline when I'm sleeping out. Most of the time my bedroom consists of a ground cloth, pad and sleeping bag, but there are times, especially in winter at trailheads, dive trips or when I need an early start that I'll just sleep in the car.

As for a bike, I have put my mountain bike in my Leaf many times. It's easy to do without even removing a wheel. Good luck doing that in a Model 3.

The Model 3 will require care getting a bike past the trunk lid without scratching anything, but after that it's got a flat load floor which allows a bike to be slid in right up to the front seat backs, with what appears to be more than enough length to not need to remove a wheel. To assist sliding I normally put some flattened cardboard boxes down on the floor and folded seat backs, smooth side up. From the MT review:

The prototype’s trunk opening was criticized as too small; now it’s yawning. And at 15 cubic feet, with a very low lift-over and 60/40 folding rear seats, it looks hungry for a surfboard or a bike. Franz* assures me of this; he’s a cyclist.

*Von Holzhausen, the designer.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I'm often at or above timberline when I'm sleeping out.

Yeah, that's another advantage of the Northeast. Our little mini-mountains don't often go above treeline. They do, but you cannot camp there anyway - in most states, you cannot camp above 3500'. Yes, I know if your part of the world that would mean no camping!

As for a bike, I have put my mountain bike in my Leaf many times. It's easy to do without even removing a wheel. Good luck doing that in a Model 3.

The Model 3 will require care getting a bike past the trunk lid without scratching anything, but after that it's got a flat load floor which allows a bike to be slid in right up to the front seat backs, with what appears to be more than enough length to not need to remove a wheel. To assist sliding I normally put some flattened cardboard boxes down on the floor and folded seat backs, smooth side up. From the MT review:

The prototype’s trunk opening was criticized as too small; now it’s yawning. And at 15 cubic feet, with a very low lift-over and 60/40 folding rear seats, it looks hungry for a surfboard or a bike. Franz* assures me of this; he’s a cyclist.

*Von Holzhausen, the designer.

I don't doubt that certain bikes can fit in the Model 3's trunk. I do doubt that it is anywhere near as easy to load/unload as my Leaf. The fact that it is not level doesn't matter at all. The bike slides over the rear seats, and the front wheel slots between the rear and front seats. Easy in / easy out.

 

[tattoogunman]

I am not a Tesla fan by any means for a variety of reasons, but having seen what the Leaf 2 is going to be and its cost, I would probably opt for the Tesla. Why? Greater range and hands down better looks and performance. My only reservation would be the wait for the Model 3 and that's assuming Tesla can actually get their production up to where it needs to be. I'm not someone who is willing to sit around waiting a year or more for a freaking car when I can down to any Nissan, BMW, or Chevy dealer tomorrow and drive off with an EV. I'm not overly concerned with what's "cool" and what emblem is on the front and back of my car - if it works for me, I'm good. Right now I'm taking a wait and see approach before I make the switch to an EV as my current ICE car is so efficient that switching to electric doesn't really make much economic sense for me.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

Blog comparison of 3 vs leaf 2.
https://forums.teslarati.com/threads/tesla-model-3-vs-2018-nissan-leaf-a-side-by-side-comparison.4511/

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Blog comparison of 3 vs leaf 2.
https://forums.teslarati.com/threads/tesla-model-3-vs-2018-nissan-leaf-a-side-by-side-comparison.4511/

The author tries so hard to be nice to the Leaf, but his bias sure shines through. He gives lip service to some advantages of the Leaf, but dives into full detail on all of the advantages of the Model 3. The big ones to me seem to be availability, price, reliability, and utility.

 

[Joe6pack]

What do you expect? That is just another Tesla propaganda site like Electrek, InsideEVs, etc.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

Concerns about carrying a bike must be from people who have never used a bike rack like this:

Once I got that on my vehicles (I always keep one vehicle with a hitch) I just look with pity on people who carry bikes in any other way. It's by leagues the best way to carry a bike. I know the model 3 will have a trailer hitch available.

Blog comparison of 3 vs leaf 2.
https://forums.teslarati.com/threads/tesla-model-3-vs-2018-nissan-leaf-a-side-by-side-comparison.4511/

The author tries so hard to be nice to the Leaf, but his bias sure shines through. He gives lip service to some advantages of the Leaf, but dives into full detail on all of the advantages of the Model 3. The big ones to me seem to be availability, price, reliability, and utility.

The author is a huge tesla fan, no doubt.

 

[Durandal]

I am not a Tesla fan by any means for a variety of reasons, but having seen what the Leaf 2 is going to be and its cost, I would probably opt for the Tesla. Why? Greater range and hands down better looks and performance. My only reservation would be the wait for the Model 3 and that's assuming Tesla can actually get their production up to where it needs to be. I'm not someone who is willing to sit around waiting a year or more for a freaking car when I can down to any Nissan, BMW, or Chevy dealer tomorrow and drive off with an EV. I'm not overly concerned with what's "cool" and what emblem is on the front and back of my car - if it works for me, I'm good. Right now I'm taking a wait and see approach before I make the switch to an EV as my current ICE car is so efficient that switching to electric doesn't really make much economic sense for me.

You could always whet your appetite by buying a used Leaf until you get your Model 3, as long as you're willing to keep the Leaf as a backup or take a minor bath on its residual. I picked up my 2012 Leaf SL for $6,000 with 10 bars (now 9 bars, 2/3 of the way of losing my 9th...) I expect that 1st and 1.5 gen Leafs to get really cheap once the 2018 Leaf hits dealerships. Even now you can find 2015 Leafs (S trim) for just under $9k.

Although, it may just increase your appetite for something a little more upscale. The hatchback of the Leaf is certainly of greater utility, but I intend on keeping my 2012 Leaf alongside my Model 3 as long as its range is still usable. My new job supposedly has EVSE stations in the parking deck, and assuming they are operational and not consistently ICEd, then my wife will get our first Model 3, and I'll delay on our second Model 3 until I can get the performance model.