Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

[edatoakrun]

The more I hear about the Mirai and other FCEVs, the more amazed I am that anyone would want to drive one of these POS.

Why the hell is this thing such a porker, weighing in at over two tons?

Combining a vehicle of that weight, with such small battery capacity, raises questions of performance (and perhaps safety) when driving routes with large descents.

I put over five kWh back in my LEAF's pack through regen (going from one or two to six charge bars) every time I descend from Lassen Peak highway summit along the highway 36 route.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5022&p=402842&hilit=lassen+peak#p402842

I'd hate to think of the energy wasted, and the wear on the disk brakes, if I made the same trip in a tiny-battery FCEV weighing ~700 lbs more than my LEAF.

Of course, since California's plans for H infrastructure and the Mirai's range are both so limited, you'll probably never be able to test the Mirai's performance on this route, or on many other roads in California's mountainous regions.

First Drive Report: 2016 Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Sedan

...In concept, the operation of the Mirai is similar to that of a Toyota Prius hybrid, with the fuel cell replacing the function of the gasoline engine. The fuel cell combines hydrogen from the tanks with oxygen from outside air to produce electricity that is directed either to the electric motor that drives the car, with any excess stored in the small 1.6 kWh NiMH traction battery.

Borrowed from the Toyota Camry Hybrid, the tiny NiMH battery can drive the 113 kilowatt electric motor on its own for very short distances at low speeds, but in normal operation the fuel cell stack provides the majority of traction power. Just as it does when used in a gasoline hybrid system, the traction battery can provide extra power to supplement the primary fuel source when required.

Like the Toyota Prius, the Mirai has regenerative braking that stores electricity in the battery pack, and a ‘B’ mode that gently slows the car and regenerates a bit of electricity. Because of the complex drivetrain, this small sedan weighs in at a hefty 4,080 lbs...

https://transportevolved.com/2015/08/25/first-drive-report-2016-toyota-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-cell-sedan/

 

[GRA]

The more I hear about the Mirai and other FCEVs, the more amazed I am that anyone would want to drive one of these POS.

Why the hell is this thing such a porker, weighing in at over two tons?

How much do you think a LEAF with 312 miles of EPA range would weigh, when the original 24kWh/84 mile EPA battery pack weighed 680 lb.? Let's see, direct scale-up, 312/84 x 680 = 2,525 lb. for a LEAF battery pack with the same range, or 1,845 lb. more than the 3,375 or so for the stock LEAF, total 5,220 lb. Of course, it would actually add considerably more weight to the car, because you'd need bigger tires, strengthened suspension, more powerful motor, etc., and and even bigger battery pack to move it.

Combining a vehicle of that weight, with such small battery capacity, raises questions of performance (and perhaps safety) when driving routes with large descents.

I put over five kWh back in my LEAF's pack through regen (going from one or two to six charge bars) every time I descend from Lassen Peak highway summit along the highway 36 route.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5022&p=402842&hilit=lassen+peak#p402842

I'd hate to think of the energy wasted, and the wear on the disk brakes, if I made the same trip in a tiny-battery FCEV weighing ~700 lbs more than my LEAF.

Of course, since California's plans for H infrastructure and the Mirai's range are both so limited, you'll probably never be able to test the Mirai's performance on this route, or on many other roads in California's mountainous regions.

The Mirai's range is limited? Compared to what? I figure 125 to 150 miles radius (depending on conditions) initially, until people learn the car's capabilities at various speeds and can expand (or if necessary, contract) that. Driving at the speeds and on the side roads as you normally do, I wouldn't be surprised if you could do the round trip to Lassen Peak trailhead and back from the West Sacramento station paralleling S.R. 99E to Chico, then 32 and 89 (165-170 miles/+8,500' one-way). Wouldn't be easy, but it might well be doable. Edit: Actually, it might be easier than I thought. EVtripplanner shows that a Tesla S85, with a 265 mile EPA range, 200 lb. on board, 72 deg. ext. and int. temps and a speed multiplier of 1.0 can do the round trip via 99, 32 and 89 using 310 rated miles. The Mirai is 500 lb. lighter and has 47 miles more EPA range, but probably has a higher Cd (albeit lower A). The Mirai could probably do it as long as it doesn't exceed 70 on any leg, but keeping the max. speed down to 60 or less (speed multiplier .85, 279 rated miles used for an S85) it should be pretty easy.

OTOH, it will certainly be tested on I-80 and U.S. 50 coming back from Tahoe, and many other steep routes (S.R. 88, maybe SR 4, and descending Mt. Tamalpais and Mt. Hamilton in the Bay Area), even with only the initial stations available; Old Priest Grade on the way to Yosemite is also within reach of the Bay Area too, and that will give any car's braking ability (17% grade) a test. I'm very interested to see how well the regen works on long descents, and do wish the battery had more capacity to accommodate it. But until someone gets their hands on one, we just won't know how well it does.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The more I hear about the Mirai and other FCEVs, the more amazed I am that anyone would want to drive one of these POS.

Why the hell is this thing such a porker, weighing in at over two tons?

How much do you think a LEAF with 312 miles of EPA range would weigh, when the original 24kWh/84 mile EPA battery pack weighed 680 lb.? Let's see, direct scale-up, 312/84 x 680 = 2,525 lb. for a LEAF battery pack with the same range, or 1,845 lb. more than the 3,375 or so for the stock LEAF, total 5,220 lb.

You really think that a 2011 technology / "low" cost EV should be compared to the 2015 hydrogen one with high cost and up to date tech?

Using 2500 pounds of batteries in a Tesla Model S would give it about 500 miles of range.

 

[GRA]

The more I hear about the Mirai and other FCEVs, the more amazed I am that anyone would want to drive one of these POS.

Why the hell is this thing such a porker, weighing in at over two tons?

How much do you think a LEAF with 312 miles of EPA range would weigh, when the original 24kWh/84 mile EPA battery pack weighed 680 lb.? Let's see, direct scale-up, 312/84 x 680 = 2,525 lb. for a LEAF battery pack with the same range, or 1,845 lb. more than the 3,375 or so for the stock LEAF, total 5,220 lb.

You really think that a 2011 technology / "low" cost EV should be compared to the 2015 hydrogen one with high cost and up to date tech?

Using 2500 pounds of batteries in a Tesla Model S would give it about 500 miles of range.

I wasn't the person saying the Mirai was so heavy, especially compared to the LEAF, that was Ed. But the Tesla Model S came out in 2012, and the Mirai's fuel cell dates from 2013.

Let's see, though. The S85's battery pack is said to weigh about 1,400 lb., and achieves 265 mile EPA range. 2,500/1,400 x 265 = 473 miles, but of course the knock on weight increases would reduce that considerably. To date, no major automaker is willing to risk using such inherently more dangerous cells to get higher specific energy, as Tesla does. An S85 with another 1,100 lb. of batteries (counting only the increase in pack weight and ignoring the knock-on effects), would turn the scales at 4,647 + 1,100 = 5,747 lb. More realistically, it would be over 6k, and that assumes there's room for the batteries.

How much would such a car cost? At $3k for 5 kWh (85 to 90 kWh upgrade price), and a 2,500 lb. battery would provide about 150kWh, so about $39k over the $80k price of a base S85, and that's without any other cost increase. There are undoubtedly Tesla customers who wouldn't bat an eye at that and would love to have the extra range, but such a car isn't available now, nor likely to be for the next several years at least.

 

[edatoakrun]

="GRA"

The more I hear about the Mirai and other FCEVs, the more amazed I am that anyone would want to drive one of these POS.

Why the hell is this thing such a porker, weighing in at over two tons?

How much do you think a LEAF with 312 miles of EPA range would weigh...

I would of course, not want a BEV with 312 miles EPA range, given the huge drawbacks in cost, weight, and efficiency that would entail.

See a Tesla S, for example...

What I was asking was, since a Mirai has negligible battery capacity, why is it so damned heavy?

Combining a vehicle of that weight, with such small battery capacity, raises questions of performance (and perhaps safety) when driving routes with large descents.

I put over five kWh back in my LEAF's pack through regen (going from one or two to six charge bars) every time I descend from Lassen Peak highway summit along the highway 36 route.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5022&p=402842&hilit=lassen+peak#p402842

I'd hate to think of the energy wasted, and the wear on the disk brakes, if I made the same trip in a tiny-battery FCEV weighing ~700 lbs more than my LEAF.

Of course, since California's plans for H infrastructure and the Mirai's range are both so limited, you'll probably never be able to test the Mirai's performance on this route, or on many other roads in California's mountainous regions.

="GRA"...The Mirai's range is limited? Compared to what?...

Compared to any vehicle using any fuel that has the infrastructure to refuel.

A Mirai could easily make the trip (below) I used as an example, but only if it was driven to the start point on a flatbed, and loaded up again after it finished the trip, for the ride back to a (functional?) H station.





Since this trip requires ~25 kWh available from the pack in a 2011 LEAF, and my OE pack now look to be down to ~20.3 kWh static, ~18.2 kwh available, I have to refuel once en route.

I expect that a 2016 30 kWh LEAF will probably allow ~ the same ~90% battery usage as the 2011-15 LEAFs, meaning it should have ~27 kWh available.

With the efficiency improvements over my 2011, I expect this trip will be possible in a 2016 LEAF SV or SL without refueling (and if driven below the speed limit, on the high speed highway sections) but this will soon probably not be so much of a consideration, since it looks likely that Lassen NP will have L2 EVSEs installed in the not too distant future.

When do you suppose there'll be an H station up there?

="GRA"
...I'm very interested to see how well the regen works on long descents, and do wish the battery had more capacity to accommodate it. But until someone gets their hands on one, we just won't know how well it does...

Well, I can tell you that unless the Mira is able to waste the descent energy from regen by constantly discharging its tiny battery while running (by hurling lightning bolts, perhaps?) it will have no regenerative braking at all for most of the Lassen Peak descent, or any other large descent.

So apparently, the Mirai will instead have to waste descent energy by slowly grinding its brake pads to dust...

 

[GRA]

="GRA"

The more I hear about the Mirai and other FCEVs, the more amazed I am that anyone would want to drive one of these POS.

Why the hell is this thing such a porker, weighing in at over two tons?

How much do you think a LEAF with 312 miles of EPA range would weigh...

I would of course, not want a BEV with 312 miles EPA range, given the huge drawbacks in cost, weight, and efficiency that would entail.

See a Tesla S, for example...

What I was asking was, since a Mirai has negligible battery capacity, why is it so damned heavy?

Because fuel cell stacks currently have lower specific power than piston ICEs, of course. Fuel storage is probably also heavier (the tank, not the fuel), but I'm not certain of that. It weighs about 6 to 800 lb. more than a Camry, which is comparable in size. Stricter crash regulations in the intervening years may also play a part. And Ed, you may not want a car with ICE range, but most people expect and insist on it.

Combining a vehicle of that weight, with such small battery capacity, raises questions of performance (and perhaps safety) when driving routes with large descents.

I put over five kWh back in my LEAF's pack through regen (going from one or two to six charge bars) every time I descend from Lassen Peak highway summit along the highway 36 route.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5022&p=402842&hilit=lassen+peak#p402842

I'd hate to think of the energy wasted, and the wear on the disk brakes, if I made the same trip in a tiny-battery FCEV weighing ~700 lbs more than my LEAF.

Of course, since California's plans for H infrastructure and the Mirai's range are both so limited, you'll probably never be able to test the Mirai's performance on this route, or on many other roads in California's mountainous regions.

...The Mirai's range is limited? Compared to what?...

Compared to any vehicle using any fuel that has the infrastructure to refuel.

A Mirai could easily make the trip (below) I used as an example, but only if it was driven to the start point on a flatbed, and loaded up again after it finished the trip, for the ride back to a (functional?) H station.
<snip>

Since this trip requires ~25 kWh available from the pack in a 2011 LEAF, and my OE pack now look to be down to ~20.3 kWh static, ~18.2 kwh available, I have to refuel once en route.

I expect that a 2016 30 kWh LEAF will probably allow ~ the same ~90% battery usage as the 2011-15 LEAFs, meaning it should have ~27 kWh available.

With the efficiency improvements over my 2011, I expect this trip will be possible in a 2016 LEAF SV or SL without refueling (and if driven below the speed limit, on the high speed highway sections) but this will soon probably not be so much of a consideration, since it looks likely that Lassen NP will have L2 EVSEs installed in the not too distant future.

When do you suppose there'll be an H station up there?

Don't know, but not apparently in the next round of funding. The one after that, possibly, depending on if the market is there. I'd expect one in Chico first (college town). It would only take one in either Red Bluff or Redding to allow travel to southern Oregon (Ashland, say) and return unrefueled. But AFVs are bound to be mostly restricted initially to being located in major urban areas with concentrations of people with sufficient incomes to afford them, plus connector (e.g. Harris Ranch) and destination (e.g. Truckee) stations.

="GRA"
...I'm very interested to see how well the regen works on long descents, and do wish the battery had more capacity to accommodate it. But until someone gets their hands on one, we just won't know how well it does...

Well, I can tell you that unless the Mira is able to waste the descent energy from regen by constantly discharging its tiny battery while running (by hurling lightning bolts, perhaps?) it will have no regenerative braking at all for most of the Lassen Peak descent, or any other large descent.

So apparently, the Mirai will instead have to waste descent energy by slowly grinding its brake pads to dust...

Again, we won't know until someone gets their hands on one. Of course, there are ways to make room in the battery (Max A/C/heat/ lights etc.) but these are inconvenient workarounds which should be unnecessary in any properly-engineered car. I figure Toyota has no shortage of good engineers, but then that isn't always enough, as the LEAF has demonstrated. I look forward to finding out.

 

[edatoakrun]

="GRA"

...since a Mirai has negligible battery capacity, why is it so damned heavy?

...It weighs about 6 to 800 lb. more than a Camry, which is comparable in size...

And ~550 LBs more than a Honda FCX Clarity, a much older FCV design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX_Clarity

So, I still can't understand what caused the Mirai's weight problem.

="GRA"...you may not want a car with ICE range, but most people expect and insist on it...

A very small minority of drivers require daily range longer than what a ~20 kWh pack provides for a mid-sized BEV.

For them, or for those others who want a BEV only for occasional longer range trips (and I'm one of them) a BEVx will probably always be superior alternative to either a grossly oversized battery pack (Tesla S) or a bad joke like a Mirai.

Even if the BEV you desire is a large 4WD minivan:

....A Tesla X (for example) equipped with a ~25 kW generator and only a ~50 kWh pack could easily make the same ~three hour ~200 mile Winter Tahoe trip non-stop, while a 90 kWh Tesla X BEV would probably have to stop to recharge en-route.

The hypothetical Tesla X50x25, would also cost a lot less than an X90, and due to the lower weight, handle better and have superior efficiency...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847&hilit=BEVx&start=270

="GRA"...AFVs are bound to be mostly restricted initially to being located in major urban areas with concentrations of people with sufficient incomes to afford them, plus connector (e.g. Harris Ranch) and destination (e.g. Truckee) stations...

And IMO they will probably never get much further than that.

Eventually, California taxpayers will become aware of what an enormous boondoggle the promoters of FCEVs have constructed.

FCVs are the result of giving gasoline addicts access to almost unlimited taxpayer subsidies, to fulfill their delusions.

It seems that some people cling so tightly to their gasoline dependence, that only another fuel that promises to allow them to continue to act as irresponsibly, and have others continue to subsidize their addiction, can be conceived as its replacement.

 

[epirali]

Isn't most of this discussion, taxes, infrastructure, etc, off topic for Mirai thread and better rehashed in the FCEV thread?

 

[DaveEV]

Isn't most of this discussion, taxes, infrastructure, etc, off topic for Mirai thread and better rehashed in the FCEV thread?

Yeah, I moved a bunch of posts over.

 

[GRA]

I know this will come as a shock, but this post is solely about the Mirai (okay, it also tried out some of the existing SoCal fueling infrastructure):

2016 Toyota Mirai Fuel-Cell Sedan
The first fuel-cell car you, or people richer than you, can buy.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-toyota-mirai-test-review

 

[epirali]

I know this will come as a shock, but this post is solely about the Mirai (okay, it also tried out some of the existing SoCal fueling infrastructure):

2016 Toyota Mirai Fuel-Cell Sedan
The first fuel-cell car you, or people richer than you, can buy.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-toyota-mirai-test-review

That is just insane, an actual Mirai review? What next?

Thanks, good read. I particularly liked this bit: "No champagne was consumed toasting the Mirai’s maiden voyage. Instead, we held a cup under the rear of the car to collect water exiting the fuel cell. Three who sipped that Kool-Aid found no hint of chicory, sultry overtone, or oaky aftertaste. Just flat, flavorless water, as Mother Nature intended."

 

[edatoakrun]

A recent post I made on this thread, and an off-topic (IMO) reply, seem to be missing from this thread.

If my post's deletion is due to the actions of a moderator, would that party please post or PM me with details of why my post was deleted.

BTW, there are probably over 1,000 posts on the:

Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744&start=2830

That (IMO) could use a moderator's attention...

MODERATORS NOTE:
The post (and associated reply) were moved to Snippiness because:
1. It was Off-Topic.
2. It was a re-post which is completely unnecessary in general.
BTW - you are adding Off-Topic content to this thread again.
-drees

 

[edatoakrun]

I know this will come as a shock, but this post is solely about the Mirai (okay, it also tried out some of the existing SoCal fueling infrastructure):

2016 Toyota Mirai Fuel-Cell Sedan
The first fuel-cell car you, or people richer than you, can buy.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-toyota-mirai-test-review

The $58,325 base price isn’t much of a return on the 23 years of development and 5680 patents that Toyota invested in this future...

In two days, we stopped nine times at seven locations to draw hydrogen from four working pumps, never experiencing range anxiety. Over 400 miles we averaged 56 miles per kilogram of hydrogen, or 57 MPGe, costing us roughly $0.25 per mile—nearly four times the cost of driving a Toyota Camry hybrid...

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-toyota-mirai-test-review

And who knows, maybe in another ~23 years there will be A FCV compact sedan as efficient (with the same MPGe rating) as a 2017 PHEV Chrysler minivan...

...A new Chrysler Town & Country will debut at the Detroit Auto Show in January, and will be in showrooms in the the spring of 2016.

According to Automotive News, a plug-in hybrid version of the T&C will follow about 6 months after that. And how’s this for news? It is expected the plug-in car will have a fuel economy rating of 75 MPGe!...

http://gas2.org/2015/08/31/chrysler-plug-in-hybrid-minivan-new-models/

 

[GRA]

I know this will come as a shock, but this post is solely about the Mirai (okay, it also tried out some of the existing SoCal fueling infrastructure):

2016 Toyota Mirai Fuel-Cell Sedan
The first fuel-cell car you, or people richer than you, can buy.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-toyota-mirai-test-review

The $58,325 base price isn’t much of a return on the 23 years of development and 5680 patents that Toyota invested in this future...

In two days, we stopped nine times at seven locations to draw hydrogen from four working pumps, never experiencing range anxiety. Over 400 miles we averaged 56 miles per kilogram of hydrogen, or 57 MPGe, costing us roughly $0.25 per mile—nearly four times the cost of driving a Toyota Camry hybrid...

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-toyota-mirai-test-review

And who knows, maybe in another ~23 years there will be A FCV compact sedan as efficient (with the same MPGe rating) as a 2017 PHEV Chrysler minivan...

...A new Chrysler Town & Country will debut at the Detroit Auto Show in January, and will be in showrooms in the the spring of 2016.

According to Automotive News, a plug-in hybrid version of the T&C will follow about 6 months after that. And how’s this for news? It is expected the plug-in car will have a fuel economy rating of 75 MPGe!...

http://gas2.org/2015/08/31/chrysler-plug-in-hybrid-minivan-new-models/

It's certainly not going to get 75 MPGe if driven by a Car & Driver editor! :lol: Please note that you're comparing actual MPGe achieved by a C&D driver with an expected EPA MPGe rating, and the average C&D editor thinks hypermiling refers to traveling at warp speed (which they attempt to achieve in any vehicle they drive). I have no trouble at all exceeding Consumer Reports' achieved mpg by several mpg just driving normally, and I can expect to better C&D achieved MPG by at least 40% if I'm not driving like they usually do.

If you want to compare EPA ratings, it's 67 MPGe for the Mirai. There's no question that in a short term test like the EPA's, the efficiency advantage will go to a PHEV which can use its higher-efficiency battery for most of the test. Long range cruising in CS mode, however, is a different matter, and the FCEV offers the possibility of fossil-fuel free driving now (so would the PHEV if sustainable biofuels are available for the ICE), but that's not currently a viable option, although it may be in a few years.

 

[ydnas7]

I know this will come as a shock, but this post is solely about the Mirai (okay, it also tried out some of the existing SoCal fueling infrastructure):

2016 Toyota Mirai Fuel-Cell Sedan
The first fuel-cell car you, or people richer than you, can buy.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-toyota-mirai-test-review

confirmation of H2 price being about $14 per kg
'Pumps at the South Coast Air Quality Management District headquarters in Diamond Bar meter hydrogen cooled to -40 degrees F with sufficient accuracy that they can charge credit-card holders $13.99 per kilogram ($6.35/pound). We need 0.664 kilogram (1.46 pounds) of hydrogen to fill the tanks, for a total cost of $9.29. '

H2 can never be as cheap as the fuel (fossil or electric) that it was derived from.

 

[GRA]

I know this will come as a shock, but this post is solely about the Mirai (okay, it also tried out some of the existing SoCal fueling infrastructure):

2016 Toyota Mirai Fuel-Cell Sedan
The first fuel-cell car you, or people richer than you, can buy.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-toyota-mirai-test-review

confirmation of H2 price being about $14 per kg
'Pumps at the South Coast Air Quality Management District headquarters in Diamond Bar meter hydrogen cooled to -40 degrees F with sufficient accuracy that they can charge credit-card holders $13.99 per kilogram ($6.35/pound). We need 0.664 kilogram (1.46 pounds) of hydrogen to fill the tanks, for a total cost of $9.29. '

H2 can never be as cheap as the fuel (fossil or electric) that it was derived from.

And as I've noted in this and other threads, absolutely no customer is paying that price, nor will they for the 3 year duration of a lease (or the same period if they buy), because the manufacturers are picking up the tab. The long-term viability of FCEVs will depend on what the H2 price is in 2018 and subsequent (and the amount it may be subsidized), and the price of gas ditto. I fully expect that FCEVs using renewable H2 will be cost-effective in Europe and Japan first, where fossil-fuels are taxed much more heavily.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... The long-term viability of FCEVs will depend on what the H2 price is in 2018 and subsequent (and the amount it may be subsidized), and the price of gas ditto. I fully expect that FCEVs using renewable H2 will be cost-effective in Europe and Japan first, where fossil-fuels are taxed much more heavily.

Well... EVs with lowly batteries have them all beat, and that's forecast to remain that way... indefinitely.

 

[GRA]

... The long-term viability of FCEVs will depend on what the H2 price is in 2018 and subsequent (and the amount it may be subsidized), and the price of gas ditto. I fully expect that FCEVs using renewable H2 will be cost-effective in Europe and Japan first, where fossil-fuels are taxed much more heavily.

Well... EVs with lowly batteries have them all beat, and that's forecast to remain that way... indefinitely.

Not using public for-profit charging, they don't, but this is an issue that's been widely discussed/agued in the H2 thread, and belongs there.

 

[GRA]

Via ievs:

2016 Mirai: "Do Not Refuel After 2029?

http://insideevs.com/2016-toyota-mirai-refuel-2029/

Apparently the fuel cell system (or perhaps just the tank) is certified for 15 years from date of manufacture, in this case presumably 11/2014. Probably you could get that replaced, or perhaps pressure-tested and re-certified (much like my scuba tanks have to be every 5 years, plus yearly visual inspections), although I seriously doubt there will be many 1st gen Mirais still around that long, given how obsolete they'll be by then, and the fact that the vast majority (Toyota estimates 95%) will be leased. That will probably be at least two fuel cell generations behind the state of the art, in a technology that's still very immature - how many people would bother? OTOH, people like me who fully expect cars to last that long or longer would need to take that into account if considering buying. It's still far longer than any BEV is likely to remain useful with the original battery.

 

[finman100]

Wow can't really grasp the straws that some are grasping, hoping fcv are worth it? Ya got some pipe dream going. All the while the real world will continue with evs. Good luck with that Toyota and yer mirage.